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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 10:52:11
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
Where in the sourcebooks does it say the reader is supposed to interpret the information that way? The information is presented as matter-of-fact, behind-the-scenes information.
In previous editions, all of the "facts" of the deities (or at least many of them) were completely up in the air. This is why we see in Powers of Faerun (written by the two most prevalent Realms-authors, Ed Greenwood and Eric Boyd, who know the most about the deities) we see many divine casters worshipping aspects of the deity that are "factually incorrect."
Again, its presented as behind-the-secenes information, not something faerunian residents would know about. They left out a lot of information (and rightly so), but the information that is given is presented the way I said. |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:00:18
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quote:
Please point to where it states in a source that these practices are in some way inhibiting her goals.
I admit, there is nothing in the sourcebooks to indicate this. I think this is a gross oversight on the part of the game designers and book authors. Male drow come from an oppressive matriarchy; why wouldn't they view another matriarchal system with suspicion? How could that possibly not impede Elistraee's efforts to redeem as many drow as possible? One of the things I liked about the Bladesinger novel is that it illustrated that there were consequences to the Witches' matriarchal policies (distrust and resentment between witches and the repressed wizards). |
Edited by - lowtech on 09 Aug 2006 11:10:48 |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:11:36
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quote:
I admit, there is nothing in the sourcebooks to indicate this. I think this is a gross oversight on the part of the game designers and book authors. Male drow come from an oppressive matriarchy; why wouldn't they view another matriarchal system with suspicion? How could that possibly not impede Elistraee's efforts to redeem as many drow as possible?
Because male Drow that are given positions of clerical power may well start to abuse it, perhaps more than actually use it to bring Drow back to the surface.
That and Vhaeraun is the god of Male Drow...
I am a male myself and I don't find it particularly offensive. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:12:31
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quote:
Again, its presented as behind-the-secenes information, not something faerunian residents would know about. They left out a lot of information (and rightly so), but the information that is given is presented the way I said.
In your previous post, you were referring to the "reader," not Faerunians. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:20:51
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quote:
What's your point? We're not talking about unequalities, but rather differences.
Churches have power to influence society that is not availbe to other groups. As the only racial goddess of "good" drow, this is especially true in Elistraee's case. |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:23:41
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
I admit, there is nothing in the sourcebooks to indicate this. I think this is a gross oversight on the part of the game designers and book authors. Male drow come from an oppressive matriarchy; why wouldn't they view another matriarchal system with suspicion? How could that possibly not impede Elistraee's efforts to redeem as many drow as possible?
Because male Drow that are given positions of clerical power may well start to abuse it, perhaps more than actually use it to bring Drow back to the surface.
That and Vhaeraun is the god of Male Drow...
I am a male myself and I don't find it particularly offensive.
Why would male drow be more likely to abuse this power than female drow? Are you forgetting which race we are talking about? |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:24:49
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quote:
Why would male drow be more likely to abuse this power than female drow? Are you forgetting which race we are talking about?
Why would someone abused as a child be more likely to abuse their own children? |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:25:20
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
Again, its presented as behind-the-secenes information, not something faerunian residents would know about. They left out a lot of information (and rightly so), but the information that is given is presented the way I said.
In your previous post, you were referring to the "reader," not Faerunians.
right, the "reader". not the character (Faerunians) the "reader" is roleplaying as. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:26:17
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quote:
Churches have power to influence society that is not availbe to other groups. As the only racial goddess of "good" drow, this is especially true in Elistraee's case.
That didn't answer my question at all.
In the Realms, there's none of this "everyone is equal in every way" crap that's circulating in modern society due to a backlash after centuries of misogyny. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:27:16
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
Again, its presented as behind-the-secenes information, not something faerunian residents would know about. They left out a lot of information (and rightly so), but the information that is given is presented the way I said.
In your previous post, you were referring to the "reader," not Faerunians.
right, the"reader". Not the character (faerunians) the reader is roleplaying. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:28:35
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quote:
right, the "reader". not the character (Faerunians) the "reader" is roleplaying as.
... What is your point, exactly?
The printed deific 'facts' are not facts. They are what mortals think happened. Again, in Powers of Faerun, we see this, in the 'fact' that some heresys can still gain divine research even though they go against the established 'factual' canon of their gods and religions. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:30:29
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
Churches have power to influence society that is not availbe to other groups. As the only racial goddess of "good" drow, this is especially true in Elistraee's case.
That didn't answer my question at all.
In the Realms, there's none of this "everyone is equal in every way" crap that's circulating in modern society due to a backlash after centuries of misogyny.
I think you are mistaking equality of opportunity with everyone being the same. Most males may not like being a priest of Elistraee, but the minority that would like to is not given the opportunity. |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:34:53
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
right, the "reader". not the character (Faerunians) the "reader" is roleplaying as.
... What is your point, exactly?
The printed deific 'facts' are not facts. They are what mortals think happened. Again, in Powers of Faerun, we see this, in the 'fact' that some heresys can still gain divine research even though they go against the established 'factual' canon of their gods and religions.
One of us is mistaken, and I admit it could be me; could you tell me where it says in the sourcebooks that these are not facts? |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:42:55
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
Churches have power to influence society that is not availbe to other groups. As the only racial goddess of "good" drow, this is especially true in Elistraee's case.
That didn't answer my question at all.
In the Realms, there's none of this "everyone is equal in every way" crap that's circulating in modern society due to a backlash after centuries of misogyny.
My point is that because the priesthood is a source of power, an all-female priesthood creates inequality of opportunity, not mere differences. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 11:49:16
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quote:
One of us is mistaken, and I admit it could be me; could you tell me where it says in the sourcebooks that these are not facts?
Look at some of Ed's replies, and look at the older books like Faiths and Avatars, rather than Faiths and Pantheons.
quote:
My point is that because the priesthood is a source of power, an all-female priesthood creates inequality of opportunity, not mere differences.
Not at all, considering clerics need potent warriors and wizards to aid them. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 12:05:01
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quote:
Not at all, considering clerics need potent warriors and wizards to aid them.
1.) there is no restriction against female drow becoming warriors and wizards. Males have less options REGARDLESS of their capabilities and interests.
2.) Churches have greater power to shape opinions, values, etc., especially when there is one dominant religion (which is effectively the case for good drow).
The only other good deity I can immediatly think of that restricts the gender of her priest is that obscure Swanmay goddess with the wierdly spelled celtic name. I think that much of a deviation from the realmsian norm should be justified by an explanation. |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 12:09:07
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| I have the 2E Faith and Avatars book (as a political science major, I loved Gargauth's entry!), but its been a while since I read it. I'll check out Ed's replies. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 12:18:57
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A few interesting items discussed.
If source books only provide human perception of deities and religion, perhaps their preception is in error. It just might be a case that just no human saw a male cleric? *wink*
There is little source material on Eilistraee societies, most information provided is about the Promenade which appears to be ruled by the clerics. However we are told that the Promenade is not a standard society either. The place is a fortess under constant danger. There is nothing provided saying Eilistraee societies are maternal ones. There is talk about equality between the genders.
Some have argued that Drow are used to a maternal society and perhaps the tradition of female clerics as well, but I keep coming back to the fact that Eilistraee societies are of many races and many of them grew up with either gender clerics.
Another thing discussed was abused males would be more likely to abuse clerical powers if granted them. This does not follow, the male Drow traditional path to power is arcane magic which can be abused more easy then divine powers. Also abused children do have a tred to grow up to abuse, unless there is intervention. Learning a different way. Eilistraee clearly teaches a different way. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 16:13:32
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| Lowtech, my comment was mostly directed at the discussion of trying to find out what the gods reasons are, not the correctness of the information in the source books. The information in most of the books are sketchy and that's the way I think it should be. That or, like the Jergal and the three evil gods in Faiths and Avatars, presented as a myth. Mysteries concerning the divine is a good thing in my book. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 17:32:33
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Oh one other idea to consider concerning idea of maternal society (or female dominated) is to remember all races are encouraged to join and many races would not accept such a society. A male dominate society converts might be won from for a degree of less power (equality), but far unlikely convert to a society of female rulership.
If all Eilistraee societies are ruled by the clerics (something I do not believe occurs) there should be males on the council.
This in itself does not require male clerics as in some ways rangers can be considered clergy and might be given a voice and/or a vote. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 09 Aug 2006 : 22:27:03
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quote:
1.) there is no restriction against female drow becoming warriors and wizards. Males have less options REGARDLESS of their capabilities and interests.
Except for the fact that female drow, 'statistically' (genetically), are geared more towards clerical life. How much influence you want biology to have in your game is up to you, but I tend to think along the lines of evolution: the most output for the least input (typically meaning capitalizing on a groups' nature strengths).
quote:
2.) Churches have greater power to shape opinions, values, etc., especially when there is one dominant religion (which is effectively the case for good drow).
Incorrect, sir! Corellon Larethian himself has Drow clerics. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 00:24:51
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quote:
Originally posted by lowtech
1.) there is no restriction against female drow becoming warriors and wizards. Males have less options REGARDLESS of their capabilities and interests.
But remember that no one is forced to follow Eilistraee. And if a male is willing to follow Eilistraee, perhaps he wouldn't want to be her priest (again, I believe that he wouldn't feel that "calling").
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 00:57:06
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
1.) there is no restriction against female drow becoming warriors and wizards. Males have less options REGARDLESS of their capabilities and interests.
Except for the fact that female drow, 'statistically' (genetically), are geared more towards clerical life. How much influence you want biology to have in your game is up to you, but I tend to think along the lines of evolution: the most output for the least input (typically meaning capitalizing on a groups' nature strengths).
I'm not arguing that there should be equality of results, and I agree (both in gaming terms and concerning evolution in general) that there is a natural statistical correlation between gender and career interests. But another aspect of evolution is that there will always be those who naturally deviate from normal predispositions (evolution cannot take place without such naturally-occuring mutations), and Elistraee's refusal to accomodate this is contrary to her alignment and portfolio; a lawful good deity may arguably justify a female-only clergy as an instrumental means of securing a utilitarian paradise on earth, but a chaotic good deity would not. Furthermore, there is nothing I remember in her portfolio (dancing, hunting, good drow) that rationally excludes males. If Elistraee were simply one member of a group of deities that a society worshipped (as some have suggested), then it wouldn't be a big deal. But Elistraee is much like Meriador; they both seek to redeem predominantly evil races with a history of conflict with "good" races, and close association with the deities of those races (such as is the case with Correlon and surface elves) would alienate a substantial percentage of potential converts. For that reason, a female-only clergy in the context of a de-facto monopoly of religious institutions would logically hinder efforts to redeem the drow race.
Just in case anybody (participants or moderators) misunderstands, I'm in no way upset with the tone of this debatte, nor Am I intending to insult anybody else; I have an obsessive interests in politics, and debates like this are my idea of a good time. One of the reasons I am into the realms in the first place is that it combines two of my favorite things; social sciences and fantasy! |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 01:21:02
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Might I make a suggestion to all interested parties? Let it lie, until we have a more definitive answer. I believe the question has been asked of Ed; though it may take him a while, he will eventually answer it. Until then, all the debating won't accomplish much of anything.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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lowtech
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 01:27:56
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Might I make a suggestion to all interested parties? Let it lie, until we have a more definitive answer. I believe the question has been asked of Ed; though it may take him a while, he will eventually answer it. Until then, all the debating won't accomplish much of anything.
But its so much fun...
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 02:15:53
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I don't know. I get a bit tired of such circular discussions, too. Especially when I already feel that the answer has been quite clearly given by the designers (just as the Orcus discussion).
Wooly is rubbing off on me. I'll retire from this thread now. :) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 05:52:26
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| *sighs* I could say so much about what designers hace said and not said. Lock the bloody thread and end it here, but the issue will reappear in three months I suspect, if not sooner. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 10 Aug 2006 : 06:22:39
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Done.
I do wish to make it clear I wasn't advocating killing the topic; I was just saying that since we were going around in circles, maybe we should stop until we've got more information.
Kentinal, if you'd like to unlock this thread when Ed replies, just drop me a line. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 10 Aug 2006 06:24:35 |
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Eilistraee, male Priests
Topic Locked
