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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 23:46:08
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I would have been really upset if I had heard about each and every one of the NPCs who cameod.
Yes, that would be incredibly distracting in a story. No, I am not arguing for such a thing. |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 23:54:43
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I really don't know why Semmemon or Alustriel deserved any more explanation than some of the other NPCs, though.
Maybe you're right, SOME novels are more and more for long-standing fans. But I remember when I first got into reading these books, when such names came up with little explanation, it made me MORE interested in figuring out who they were - not angry or frustrated. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 15 Aug 2006 23:56:28 |
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Ladern
Acolyte
Mexico
14 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 00:07:39
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I really don't post for novels discution, cause after all novels are written by some persons (one or maybe two) and then aproved or not by WotC, i post this to point the lack of interest in the Setting and their flavor and more in the sales and the mass-production.
I mean, the novels must be carefull revised and at least the writters must read some books (novels and sourcebooks) to get a feeling of the place. Even it would be nice that the writters would be players so in that point they would see the ________ (introduce the word) of killing a Dracolich with a +1 magical rapier when the creature has DR 10/bashing for an example.
But this goes to the Core, we need that the setting is regulated by someone who knows about it, who wants to see it trought. I don't know if Ed have some last word in what goes to sale or not, but for their words in the GenCon seems like not. Then who is? The only way to get something better that patched history lines and cuasi-source books filled with almost generical adventures is by rising our voices.
so lets not argue about the description of a character or if the novels need more words to be understood. Cause i can tell you guys something; if we let that the "Core" of the setting, the Rulebooks loose the meaning and the consistency then the problem in the novels will only increase also.
LEt's try to find a way to let them hear us (and for me is not easy im in another country) |
If life turns back at you.....
Sneak Attack for extra damage |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 02:15:36
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
I would have been really upset if I had heard about each and every one of the NPCs who cameod. That just doesn't happen in real life, and it shouldn't happen in-game, either. If anything, it leaves one going "Who WAS that?!" and goes actively LOOKING to see who it is. Not many of these NPCs were SO integral to the plot that you NEEDED to know exactly who they were, so to speak. At least, that's how I feel about it.
Agreed. I'm glad to see more long term characters get a bit of air time, the Realms is the people that make it and there are so many great characters out there who don't get mentioned or seen in novels. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 02:41:52
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
I don't get that impression; these books are certainly above the level of adventure journals. However I think back to the first Dragonlance trilogy, the Icewind Dale books, the first Spellfire tale and remember how those characters and worlds came alive without me having to know anything about the setting. I don't think I can say the same about some of the recent FR books. I'm a huge fan of FR lore and love roleplaying in the setting. But a recent story had lost me with a barrage of references.
I don't know. I recently read Dragons of Dwarven Depths, and it felt like.. Dragonlance to me. With a touch of D&D to it. Just enough to make me smile, but not enough to make me roll my eyes (like some of the more recent novels have).
And I'm a fan of random references that leave me going "what was that!?" Because, often, info-dumps and random bits of explanation detract from the writing rather than add to it. ("I was born in Shadowdale, a little dale in the Heartlands, known primarily for being a farming community, blah blah blah" - BAD.)
Dragons of Dwarven Depths felt like "old" DL because it was set in the 4th Age and Margaret Weis even said in her podcast that tried to make the writing on it as identical to the writing in the Original Chronicles as possible. Fifth Age however, is a whole different story. Completly different feel. Still good, but not as "bookish" and "old-style."
And I am just fine with the new novels, they still reflect the lore of the Realms and are interesting to read. Just because something is different dosen't mean its not good. But still, it would be nice to have some more books written in the "old" style. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 02:50:36
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I don't dislike novels because they're new or old; I judge things as I like them. I just so happen to enjoy the older stuff more, s'all. :)
But I was commenting more on the fact that it felt like the SETTING, and not like the GAME. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
Edited by - GothicDan on 16 Aug 2006 02:51:37 |
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Gellion
Learned Scribe
140 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 02:54:56
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Heh, I like Fifth age DL Novels a lot better than Fourth Age ones. Even if the writing is good it is a chore for me to go through a Fourth Age book.
Anywho, I dont have enough money to buy many FR sourcebooks, but I do agree that the lore parts were good, and that I do not often use premade adventures. But WoTC needs to do what is best business wise for them.:) |
"Paladine, you see the evil that surrounds me! You have been witness to the calamities that have been the scourge of Krynn... You must see now that this doctrine of balance will not work! I can sweep evil from this land. Destroy the ogre races. Bring the wayward humans into line! Find new homelands far away for the dwarves and the kender and the gnomes, those races not of your creation... I demand that you give me, too, the power to drive away the shadows of evil that darken the land!"- THE REIGN OF ISTAR, Tales IV |
Edited by - Gellion on 16 Aug 2006 02:56:17 |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 02:59:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Gellion
Heh, I like Fifth age DL Novels a lot better than Fourth Age ones. Even if the writing is good it is a chore for me to go through a Fourth Age book.
Anywho, I dont have enough money to buy many FR sourcebooks, but I do agree that the lore parts were good, and that I do not often use premade adventures. But WoTC needs to do what is best business wise for them.:)
I like both, but 5th age just dosen't have enough of a fantasy feel and seems more like Dark Sun crossed with Warhammer. Still, the War of Souls books were amazing.
Faiths and Pantheons was a pretty good 3rd edition sourcebook, don't know about the others though.
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"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Edited by - FridayThe13th on 16 Aug 2006 02:59:52 |
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vicar
Acolyte
USA
6 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 19:54:40
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Yikes! I'm about to leap into version 3.5 after holding-out for years in the comfort zone of good old second edition. I was gonna' get some 3.5 FR supplements, but largely use my cache of existing stuff from the good old days.
Will I be able to integrate them? |
The Vicar
Geeklabel.com
T-Shirts for geeks, gamers & tech-heads |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 20:14:19
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Yes, certainly.
The differences are
-- timeline advancement, which can be problematic to ignore, but no more so than in the 1990s
-- rules changes, which are only different rules, not setting
-- largely minor retcons which you can mostly take up or reject as you prefer.
Making sense of the whole panorama of older and newer Realmslore would be a major task without knowledge of the setting, but you should be OK. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 20:16:22
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quote:
Originally posted by vicar
Yikes! I'm about to leap into version 3.5 after holding-out for years in the comfort zone of good old second edition. I was gonna' get some 3.5 FR supplements, but largely use my cache of existing stuff from the good old days.
Will I be able to integrate them?
Rules wise? It'll take a lot of work. 1/2e rules compared to 3/3.5e rules are a whole different game. Lore wise, not as much work. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36892 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 20:23:42
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quote:
Originally posted by vicar
Yikes! I'm about to leap into version 3.5 after holding-out for years in the comfort zone of good old second edition. I was gonna' get some 3.5 FR supplements, but largely use my cache of existing stuff from the good old days.
Will I be able to integrate them?
One thing that may help is the 2E to 3.0E conversion book. There's also the Revised (v.3.5) System Reference Document.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
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RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 20:59:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
So if a lack of exact synchronicity doesn't effect game play and does not prevent the reading of more novels, then you're going to have to come up with a good alternate argument for why WotC should bother to spend more time (and therefore money) to synchronize their products.
I basically agree with that, but on the other hand why should we buy more D&D and FR products from Wizards? They have to give us good reasons to, because all we really need to have to play the game are three corebooks and the FRCS. I personally would like higher quality novels in addition to the great ones Ed has been writing. Others would like better attention to continuity. Point is, Wizards has to give us compelling reasons for buying more of their product, not the other way around. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 21:04:04
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quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
quote:
Originally posted by Sanishiver
So if a lack of exact synchronicity doesn't effect game play and does not prevent the reading of more novels, then you're going to have to come up with a good alternate argument for why WotC should bother to spend more time (and therefore money) to synchronize their products.
I basically agree with that, but on the other hand why should we buy more D&D and FR products from Wizards? They have to give us good reasons to, because all we really need to have to play the game are three corebooks and the FRCS. I personally would like higher quality novels in addition to the great ones Ed has been writing. Others would like better attention to continuity. Point is, Wizards has to give us compelling reasons for buying more of their product, not the other way around.
Don't know about you guys but material is coming out faster than I can, or want to, use. The PHB, DMG and MM still get the most use (granted though most of the PHB is ingrained into my brain now hehe) |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 22:42:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
Don't know about you guys but material is coming out faster than I can, or want to, use. The PHB, DMG and MM still get the most use (granted though most of the PHB is ingrained into my brain now hehe)
You'll be unsurprised to know I feel the same. That said, WOTC is a business and has to keep producing products so of course I understand the reasons for it. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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Blueblade
Senior Scribe
USA
804 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 22:52:25
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Just a tiny factoid here: Ed has said on many, many occasions (GenCons, Pentacons, etc.) that he not only doesn't have any control over what FR products are released, or their content - - he often doesn't even KNOW Product X or Y is being published until he walks into a hobby shop and sees it.
So he influences what's in some products by what he writes and the behind-the-scenes lore he hands to other writers, but he in no way "controls" the published FR setting.
AS he said once (paraphrasing here): Why would I expect to? I am not now, and never have been, a TSR/WotC staffer. Always a freelancer.
I'm sure Our Lady Hooded can get Ed to say this himself, if someone doesn't believe me. |
Edited by - Blueblade on 27 Nov 2006 22:59:02 |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 23:00:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Just a tiny factoid here: Ed has said on many, many occasions (GenCons, Pentacons, etc.) that he not only doesn't have any control over what FR products are released, or their content - - he often doesn't even KNOW Product X or Y is being published until he walks into a hobby shop and sees it.
So he influences what's in some products by what he writes and the behind-the-scenes lore he hands to other writers, but he in no way "controls" the published FR setting.
AS he said once (paraphrasing here): Why would I expect to? I am not now, and never have been, a TSR/WotC staffer. Always a freelancer.
I'm sure Our Lady Hooded can get Ed to say this himself, if someone doesn't believe me.
She, or he, doesn't have to say it since it's been said on Keep more then once in his thread. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 00:40:39
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quote:
Originally posted by vicar
Yikes! I'm about to leap into version 3.5 after holding-out for years in the comfort zone of good old second edition. I was gonna' get some 3.5 FR supplements, but largely use my cache of existing stuff from the good old days.
Will I be able to integrate them?
Well, that really depends.
If you're going for a complete change-over, the rules integration is going to take some work... especially since there are some significant changes between the 2e and 3e rules systems.
Alternatively, you could follow a course similar to what many of us here do. We use blended rules systems, that build on the history of our own campaigns in terms of utilised rules for each FR campaign. I myself, use a rules set that carries hints of 1e rules, plenty of bits from 2e, with a smattering of 3e mechanics thrown in for added taste. I don't, and never have, used the complete 3e rules set.
I've known DMs who also use this method until they become more familiar with the 3e rules, and slowly drop the older parts from their own blended rules sets as they learn more about the newer edition.
As for the lore... integrating 2e and 3e Realmslore will also take some work, though it really, again, depends on just what you've used from 2e FR in your own campaign. Some elements of the 3e FR have been specifically built upon the foundation of 2e lore, however, if you're not using those bits from 2e, then you can probably ignore or alter what's been updated in 3e. Take the ToT for example, that event never actually occured in my FR, so for the most part, I've been able to either ignore and alter all the updated Realmslore tidbits about the event itself since the 1e-to-2e changeover and added those changes to my FR.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 28 Nov 2006 00:43:17 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 00:41:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Blueblade
Just a tiny factoid here: Ed has said on many, many occasions (GenCons, Pentacons, etc.) that he not only doesn't have any control over what FR products are released, or their content - - he often doesn't even KNOW Product X or Y is being published until he walks into a hobby shop and sees it.
So he influences what's in some products by what he writes and the behind-the-scenes lore he hands to other writers, but he in no way "controls" the published FR setting.
AS he said once (paraphrasing here): Why would I expect to? I am not now, and never have been, a TSR/WotC staffer. Always a freelancer.
I'm sure Our Lady Hooded can get Ed to say this himself, if someone doesn't believe me.
I would suggest you read through Ed's scrolls here at Candlekeep -- specifically the '04 and '05 files -- since both Ed ad THO have discussed this previously. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 01:35:26
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| I'm definitely thinkin you're speakin the truth of it Kalin. I'll keep doin what I'm doin and WOTC will do what they're gonna do and we'll see what happens. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
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Draeden
Acolyte
USA
9 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 16:43:24
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Just my two cents...
When I read something that on the surface contradicts something else, I treat it as different perspectives of the narrator/writer.
In a couple of cases with game material inconsistencies, I came up with my own ruling for the campaign and went about my business without a problem.
When you consider how MUCH material has been written for the Realms, I think that overall they have done a very fine job. |
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Twilight
Seeker
Canada
68 Posts |
Posted - 26 Dec 2006 : 04:03:10
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| with over 100 books it would be hawd to keep them all in order |
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The mess of FR and WotC
