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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Apr 2007 : 04:50:53
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So, my group is running through Ravenloft using the Faerunian tie-ins in the book and the DM has made it very Realms-centric, and it is off to a great start, with one exception. I made an Aasimar cleric of Lathander for one of our players (he was out of town training and didn't have time to make his own character, but he said he wanted to play a cleric of Lathander.) The problem is that I am a CN fighter/ranger of Talos, one of the other guys is a CN goliath barbarian, and the third is a CN air genasi rogue, and the DM is a great player but rather inexperienced running. As we are killing zombies in Barovia, the cleric is checking out one house while we are in another house with some survivors.
Being very much driven by selfish motives (all of us are CN) we steal money from one of the houses while the cleric is elsewhere. The cleric has no way of knowing what has transpired, but the player does, and he proceeds to ask the family if they are missing anything. Then based on the information he should not know he proceeds to say he can't work with us any longer and tries to leave. Of course we are in Barovia so he runs into the mists then runs screaming back to us. The rogue and the cleric start arguing and finally the rogue leaves ( he levitates to the rooftops and watches our backs, not wanting to be around the cleric.) TO try and make peace, I slice open my hand and smear blood on the aasimar's armor, swearing a blood oath on my god not to betray him (he thinks my god is Helm, and I am not telling him any different.) That appeases him somewhat and we continue on.
Later the rogue rejoins the fray and we save a paladin of Lathander from some zombies, the rogue playing a critical role in saving and defending the paladin. During the fight, the rogue sleight of hands something from the paladin, and none of us, not even the paladin are aware of it based on our opposed skills checks. Regardless of this, the cleric then tells the paladin to check and see if she is missing anything simply because the player knows that rolls were made for some reason. At this point, I had to call the guy out and say that there is absolutely no reason for him to have said this, but he keeps on. He then follows the rogue around watching what he is doing and trying to tell him not to steal things, finally the rogue blows up and goes off, telling the cleric that he doesn't follow his god nor does he live by his rules.
Now don't get me wrong, this could have been a good roleplaying experience had the cleric been justified in-game of any of the actions he took, but he wasn't. Basically there are three problems, the player is using metagame knowledge rather than player knowledge, he really is being a jerk about it, and he will not listen to any of our arguments (what's a few hundred gold and some mundane supplies when we are saving these people's lives) but expects the rest of us to listen to his. Other than these instances this is starting out to be a great campaign and I don't want to see it ruined by one player's actions.
How do any of you handle players using out of game knowledge like this? This player has been with us for about a year, and we've never relly had any problems until lately, and it's not just in game time either, he's been a real jerk lately period. I thought about pulling him aside and asking him what's wrong, and trying to stress the importance of the difference between player knowledge and character knowledge, have any of you done anything like this and did it work?
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War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
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Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
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Asgetrion
Master of Realmslore
Finland
1564 Posts |
Posted - 07 Apr 2007 : 23:17:12
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This is a very difficult issue. Perhaps the player has some real life issues and this is the only way to let off some steam. On the other hand, perhaps his moral values are the issue here - maybe he (as a person) just cannot stand this kind of behaviour (he may have religious values, or some people might even have had real life encounters with thieves or burglars).
Whatever the reason may be, you should talk with him about it. Why not ask him (in a pleasant tone) why his character acts that way, and whether it is somehow connected to his beliefs or some issues that he is having in his life? If there is no "real" reason behind this, remind him of the difference between player and character knowledge (your DM should do it, too). The way I see it, the main focus (or point) in roleplaying is that *everybody* has fun. If this player keeps on ruining the game for the others, and won't listen to their reasoning (and cannot offer a reasonable explanation for motive for his actions) - why bother playing with him? Inform him that unless he changes his behaviour, you are going to replace him with somebody else.
I would understand this player's behaviour *if* this campaign had been running for years *and* his character knew your characters well (and would have witnessed your thieving habits several times before or had strong suspicions about your them).
I would also strongly recommend that your DM reads the chapters that deal with different types of players and player-related conflicts in Dungeon Master's Guide II (although they offer mainly general information on the subject, there're some good tips for beginning DMs). It might also be wise to discuss this matter with him, too, as he has the final word on everything and *should* remind every player each time when they act on information their character should not possess.
We've had this sort of situations once or twice before, and everybody was protesting when it happened. So we simply "rewinded" the story/dialogue a bit. It never even became an issue, since it was clear that nobody would tolerate such behaviour. |
"What am I doing today? Ask me tomorrow - I can be sure of giving you the right answer then."
-- Askarran of Selgaunt, Master Sage, speaking to a curious merchant, Year of the Helm |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2007 : 13:50:36
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I think there are a few of intertwined problems in your group. One is the fact that you have three chaotic neutral characters. Realistically, such a party could never really work. The characters have no reason to stick together or work towards anything cohesive or controlled. If he made a good aligned character, he was automatically going to be going against the grain. His metagaming is quite possibility a manifestation of the fact that your campaign does not fit his needs as a player. It could be that combined with innate metagaming tendencies he already has. We'd really have to know more about him as a player.
You have a few choices. You could change your style to fit the player. I don't recommend doing this for the sake of one PC alone, though I do heavily recommend reconsidering the alignments of your party. If you are all playing CN characters, you might as well just dispense with alignment altogether. Regardless of the outcome of this situation, a group of CN characters is really never a good idea.
On the problem of secrets - a few secrets are ok, but it might be that your party is a 3 against one situation where the players are working against each other (or at least one player), not the characters. Secrecy can work sometimes, but in my experience, it is one of the fastest ways of destroying a gaming group.
Another choice is to recommend that the player make a different character - perhaps a CG or CN one. If the player is averse to theft and immoral deeds, he is probably unlikely to go with this solution, but perhaps it might work.
The third option is not really a solution at all - tell him that this is the way you play and he needs to understand that any metagame actions will be instantly nullified. Essentially, whenever he attempts to use knowledge he has no means of having, whatever he does simply doesn't happen. This is likely to produce a rather antagonistic environment, but it could be necessary. Sometimes you have to be cruel to be kind.
The best solution is to have a discussion about what each of you wants out of the game. If he wants a morally upright group of adventures and won't settle for anything else, he's not going to get along with you. If both your group and this player are willing to moderate their styles of play, you might have a chance.
It has to be a compromise. Otherwise, you just don't gel as a group. Also, you might want to remind him that Lathander is not a god of law. As such, thievery - while not something he condones - is not a huge issue with him as it with LN and LG gods. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
Edited by - EytanBernstein on 09 Apr 2007 13:53:19 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 09 Apr 2007 : 20:32:34
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Talking to the player is the only thing you can do. But you have to decide how: perhaps one person speaking with the others' consent, perhaps the whole group, if you don't think he'd feel ganged up on.
But as a DM, I wouldn't let a player use information he had no access to any more than equipment he didn't have.quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
One is the fact that you have three chaotic neutral characters. Realistically, such a party could never really work. The characters have no reason to stick together or work towards anything cohesive or controlled.
Lots of adventurers are CN: look no further than Mane's Band. They can have reasons to work together, but you'd best consider them in advance rather than throwing the characters together and hoping for the best. |
Edited by - Faraer on 09 Apr 2007 20:34:14 |
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EytanBernstein
Forgotten Realms Designer
USA
704 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2007 : 17:36:28
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| It's not impossible that they could work, but I think that the cards are stacked against them. |
http://eytanbernstein.com - the official website of Eytan Bernstein |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2007 : 20:31:42
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quote:
Originally posted by EytanBernstein
Also, you might want to remind him that Lathander is not a god of law. As such, thievery - while not something he condones - is not a huge issue with him as it with LN and LG gods.
We beat that argument into the ground, but he wasn't buying it. It is odd that we ended up with 3 CN characters, that rarely happens in our group, we generally have a better mix of alignments. I'm not running this campaign (if I were this would probably not have ever become an issue) but I'm going to advocate ignoring anything he does based on player knowledge and see how that works out. I'll let you all know how things go. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36981 Posts |
Posted - 10 Apr 2007 : 21:54:42
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| As a DM, I'd start docking the character XP if he keeps trying to use metagame knowledge. |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
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Victor_ograygor
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1076 Posts |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2007 : 10:51:36
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As you said you have a couple of problems
Regarding the Metagaming situations
The Rogue should pass the DM notes I did this when I ran a Rogue/Wizard in 2ed campaign this keeps both the other players AND their characters in the dark (unless they make there spot checks
Your other problem seems to be the guy running the cleric being an ass. You could try and find out what the guys problem is but from what your saying it sounds like his attitude is "My way or the highway" Id suggest you show him the door if wont follow the Dms rules |
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Metagame knowledge
