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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
 Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 09:55:14
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I think it's better if NO DEITY is guarding the Weave. With that, people (especially those who have never visited CK) will not have the wrong notion that Mystra is biased in her treatment with magic-users, favoring the good.
On the other hand a very important part of the old Realms and the reasoning behind it disappears. Unless all gods become a part of the Wave it is a bit illogical that its not the domain of a deity. You have gods for everything else so why not magic? I agree that Mystra was better as a Neutral deity ( I never saw her as anything else), but I still believe a goddess of magic is an important part of the setting. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 10:09:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I think it's better if NO DEITY is guarding the Weave. With that, people (especially those who have never visited CK) will not have the wrong notion that Mystra is biased in her treatment with magic-users, favoring the good.
On the other hand a very important part of the old Realms and the reasoning behind it disappears. Unless all gods become a part of the Wave it is a bit illogical that its not the domain of a deity. You have gods for everything else so why not magic? I agree that Mystra was better as a Neutral deity ( I never saw her as anything else), but I still believe a goddess of magic is an important part of the setting.
Then perhaps let Ao take care of the Weave himself. All or most (even the newest) Realms fans know that Ao is nothing but NEUTRAL, so there never will be any misunderstanding about a deity having favorites (the 'good' spellcasters).
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37011 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 11:54:05
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I think it's better if NO DEITY is guarding the Weave. With that, people (especially those who have never visited CK) will not have the wrong notion that Mystra is biased in her treatment with magic-users, favoring the good.
You know, that's one bit of Realmslore that I absolutely hate... Not because it happened, though. It was basically a subplot in a single novel, never mentioned before or after in other Realmslore, and resolved in that novel -- and yet people can't let it go. There was never an in-game effect from it, and the bias was ended practically as soon as it was mentioned -- and yet it's often cited as a reason to dislike Mystra. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 13:13:58
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quote:
Originally posted by dennis
Then perhaps let Ao take care of the Weave himself. All or most (even the newest) Realms fans know that Ao is nothing but NEUTRAL, so there never will be any misunderstanding about a deity having favorites (the 'good' spellcasters).
IMO the only thing we know about Ao... is that we know absolutely nothing about him. Yeah he's all about balance, but he's also willing to let his world explode (ToT, Spellplague) to let the Gods/residents learn from their mistakes. He also wants no part in the balance he's imposing, and will not answer prayers to grant spells to worshipers. So no, I don't think Ao will ever take control over the weave. |
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jordanz
Senior Scribe
556 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 13:52:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I think it's better if NO DEITY is guarding the Weave. With that, people (especially those who have never visited CK) will not have the wrong notion that Mystra is biased in her treatment with magic-users, favoring the good.
You know, that's one bit of Realmslore that I absolutely hate... Not because it happened, though. It was basically a subplot in a single novel, never mentioned before or after in other Realmslore, and resolved in that novel -- and yet people can't let it go. There was never an in-game effect from it, and the bias was ended practically as soon as it was mentioned -- and yet it's often cited as a reason to dislike Mystra.
What novel? Is that the reason behind all of this mess? I dont play the game, just read the novels but I'm in limbo here. I need a sense of normalcy , we dont have to go backwards but things should be stabilized. Give us a new God of Magic already, establish new Good and evil Supreme Arch Mages. |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 14:09:21
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quote:
Originally posted by jordanz
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by dennis
I think it's better if NO DEITY is guarding the Weave. With that, people (especially those who have never visited CK) will not have the wrong notion that Mystra is biased in her treatment with magic-users, favoring the good.
You know, that's one bit of Realmslore that I absolutely hate... Not because it happened, though. It was basically a subplot in a single novel, never mentioned before or after in other Realmslore, and resolved in that novel -- and yet people can't let it go. There was never an in-game effect from it, and the bias was ended practically as soon as it was mentioned -- and yet it's often cited as a reason to dislike Mystra.
What novel? Is that the reason behind all of this mess? I dont play the game, just read the novels but I'm in limbo here. I need a sense of normalcy , we dont have to go backwards but things should be stabilized. Give us a new God of Magic already, establish new Good and evil Supreme Arch Mages.
Crucible, the Trial of Cyric the Mad, the fifth book of the Avatar serie.
In short, since midnight was/is a NG, she decided to make some changes after her ascension, like blocking war and evil magic (and she blocked Cyric's connection to the Weave  ). That had some heavy repercussion on the balance, and ended up doing more evil than the spells. So Mystra 2.0, while being NG, is adopting a more LN attitude on the Weave she controls, like her predecessor did.
Kelemvor did about the same with his control over death and the deads, and ended up with a similar conclusion.
At least thats what I remember, been a few years. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4503 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 15:45:22
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What use is the Weave now that it's been destroyed? Obviously spell-casters have been handling magic in the last century without the Weave and evertying seems stable now. Maybe it would aliveate the pockets of Spellplague that still remain?
Personally, I don't think a God/Goddess of magic is really needed. Magic is something that eminates from the world and I don't think it needs to be controled by any deity. |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 16:18:44
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If we take Ed-lore from the Ask Ed scrolls, it seems that the Weave is not destroyed at all. I believe Ed/THO have stated that the primal forces of the universe are the Weave; things like gravity, chemical reactions, life, etc...
So if the Weave *is* still in place, as the above mentioned "forces" are still in play post-Year of Blue Fire... What was destroyed? |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4503 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 16:31:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
If we take Ed-lore from the Ask Ed scrolls, it seems that the Weave is not destroyed at all. I believe Ed/THO have stated that the primal forces of the universe are the Weave; things like gravity, chemical reactions, life, etc...
So if the Weave *is* still in place, as the above mentioned "forces" are still in play post-Year of Blue Fire... What was destroyed?
Hmm.. I dont read the Ask Eds scrolls but if that were true, then what caused the Spellplague if not the destruction of the Weave? I'm AFB right now so I don't have the FRCG with me, but I thought that was the whole cause? But if, for arguments sake, the Weave isn't destroyed, then it further shows that there isn't a need for a deity to "over see" it to begin with. Magic users have been using magic for the past century without need of a governing body of magic, so why start up a new one?
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3256 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 16:36:44
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I think the Spellplague was the combination of a number of things, chief among them the 'killing' of Mystra and the attempt of Shar to steal Magic from her.
And, I don't think it's really a matter of 'overseeing' it like an adminstrator, but more like a gardener tending to it and making it grow healthy and strong.
To put it in farm/food terms. Sure, without a farmer, you can still harvest food for sustenance, as the current magic-users are doing. But if you add in someone to 'tend the crops', you'll get a more bountiful and better harvest. |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 16:44:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Ashe Ravenheart
I think the Spellplague was the combination of a number of things, chief among them the 'killing' of Mystra and the attempt of Shar to steal Magic from her.
And, I don't think it's really a matter of 'overseeing' it like an adminstrator, but more like a gardener tending to it and making it grow healthy and strong.
To put it in farm/food terms. Sure, without a farmer, you can still harvest food for sustenance, as the current magic-users are doing. But if you add in someone to 'tend the crops', you'll get a more bountiful and better harvest.
Exaxctly. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3256 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 17:30:14
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(note to self: August 12th, 2010, Brace and I agree on something. Must play Powerball on Saturday  )
Of course, the implication that a God(dess) of Magic tends to the weave leads to a whole drekload* of nightmares when you theorize on Shar trying to steal control of the Weave. She is an agent of Entropy, after all. And what better way to bring about the "end of all things" than to make sure that the Weave withers and dies, starving magic (and by that extension the 'physics' of gravity, chemistry, life, etc.).
* Pardon the colloquialism, I'm writing up a Shadowrun campaign for my gaming group back home and have been nose-deep in drek, frag and slot all week. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 17:32:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Personally, I don't think a God/Goddess of magic is really needed. Magic is something that eminates from the world and I don't think it needs to be controled by any deity.
But doesn't that go for sex, dance, art, the seasons etc? Most of the gods control aspects of reality that emanates from the world or its inhabitants in one way or another. Why should it be any different with magic? None of the gods are really needed individually, almost all of them could be removed without the whole thing unravelling, but a goddess of magic fits pretty well as I see it. I would personally prefer a version with Lurue instead and magic having a more mystic aspect than the weave though. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Kilvan
Senior Scribe
Canada
896 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 18:44:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Hmm... That Lolth idea had some interesting implications. Or better yet, what about Angharrahd? She's already an amalgam of three deities with wildly different portfolios- why not add magic, since Selune/Sehinine is already a moon/magic goddess?
Well, Angharrahd is not part of the Faerunnian Pantheon, she part of the Seldarine. AND, magic is already covered in the Seldarine, Corellon has it, which doesn't grant him any control over the Weave, he only dictates to elves how magic should be handled. |
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Menelvagor
Senior Scribe
Israel
352 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 19:03:00
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Angharrahd doesn't exist anymore, since it was revealed that the Seldarine were simply aspects of the other gods. Sehanine an aspect of Selune, Hanali an aspect of Sune, etc.
I've got to agree with Ashe and Brace. To add to their idea, I'll use Wooly's web comparison - magic is the Web, thw Weave is a certain server - Firefox, for example. A magic user is on WiFi. When Mystra tends to the Weave, he has a steady connection. When Mystra's gone, the Weave is still there - but you have problems connecting, sometimes not getting one, sometimes getting a wild connection. |
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How much less them that dwell in houses of clay, whose foundation in the dust, are crushed before the moth?" - Eliphaz the Temanite, Job IV, 17-19.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4503 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 19:29:38
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| Maybe I'm just not keen on the idea as to what sort of specific changes it would imply on the game. If I could be reassured that it would only impact the lore/story aspect of Faerun and no attempts were implimented to change the core of the game, then I would be more inclined to having a deity of Magic. The main problem I had with Mystra is that the writers didn't show any other side of her except the NG goody-two-shoes deity of magic that had her elite super-friends saving the world. But if they paint her with a more (for lack of a better work) unaligned approach and just stuck to the Magic then I'd be happy. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3256 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 19:33:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Maybe I'm just not keen on the idea as to what sort of specific changes it would imply on the game. If I could be reassured that it would only impact the lore/story aspect of Faerun and no attempts were implimented to change the core of the game, then I would be more inclined to having a deity of Magic. The main problem I had with Mystra is that the writers didn't show any other side of her except the NG goody-two-shoes deity of magic that had her elite super-friends saving the world. But if they paint her with a more (for lack of a better work) unaligned approach and just stuck to the Magic then I'd be happy.
Well, unless they are planning 5E, I don't see them changing the rules if/when she comes back. So I'd say it would be a pure lore change. |
I actually DO know everything. I just have a very poor index of my knowledge.
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 20:07:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Menelvagor
Angharrahd doesn't exist anymore, since it was revealed that the Seldarine were simply aspects of the other gods. Sehanine an aspect of Selune, Hanali an aspect of Sune, etc.
Ugh, this is one of the reasons I've stayed away from anything Post-Spellplague. That change was just rediculous. Why take out half of a pantheon, rearrange others, and then tell us all that half the gods we've been using don't even exist? It's stupid and reeks of ret-con, which I abhor on principal. History and geography don't cease to exist just because we want to do something different, why should gods? It's poor research and writing, nothing more.
Anyway, I was just throwing out some ideas. I know Corellon has magic, (might be what kept magic from unraveling completely, since elves are so attuned to it!) but I was thinking of the Selune/Sehenine connection. If Selune took it over, her Sehenine aspect (whatever, WotC!) would have it by default as well. |
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4503 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 20:38:49
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Well even Ed said that no mortals really know the specifics of the deities of Faerun and that even the deities may not know they have aspects of themselves or know they have aspects so that their worship can still go on if one of their versions aren't venerated anymore. I was actually just brought up in a WotC thread.
So the idea that Sehenine is an elven aspect of Selune isn't really a retcon but a plausable point. Of course, I feel it should be left up the the individual DM as to what they like/want in their own campaign. For myself, I like the idea of deities having separate aspects (Silvanus also being Meilikki, Eldath, and other nature-ish deities). But that is just me. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 20:57:12
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| That may be a valid point, but I just don't buy it. A deity is supposed to be pretty much omniscient in regards to their own domains/portfolios, so why would they not know they have another aspect tucked away somewhere? That's like saying a woman had a kid she doesn't remember giving birth to!! (Unless she was in a coma when she did it, which is excusable, but you get the point....) I can understand if an aspect is no longer venerated, but there would have to be a pretty GOOD reason for that to happen- like all the worshippers of that aspect getting wiped out in a flood. It doesn't just "disappear" on its own. I agree that which ones are used should be left to the DM, which is PRECISELY why I think removing them is such a bad idea to begin with. It's just throwing the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak. And Silvanus being Meilikki and Eldath? Sorry, but aren't they both FEMALE?! WotC: "We don't like this deity being here, but we have some DM's who use him. We're just going to say it's really this deity over here, and he's been going by another name, even though they are totally different in persona/outlook, etc..." My earlier opinion stands. It's just poor thinking on the part of the game designers/writers to explain it that way. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4503 Posts |
Posted - 12 Aug 2010 : 21:59:36
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From the WotC post I mentioned earlier, to give a bit more of a reference:
"Here's the real secret: if you read my Realms novels, you'll occasionally "hear" characters swearing by "all the Watching Gods."
Well, unbeknownst to all but a few sages and ancient elves, that phrase, "the Watching Gods," refers to an old, old belief among intelligent races that there are far fewer actual gods than most mortals believe, and that these fewer "Watching Gods" are unwittingly worshipped under several names by clergies and devout lay followers who see them as a variety of different beings. Some sages believe the gods themselves are partially or wholly unaware that they are "split personalities" or "aspects" of the same mighty being, while others cling to the view that this is a deliberate deception (insurance, if you will, on the part of a divine being that they will always be venerated regardless of whether this or that named god falls out of favour). A few sages believe Ao and the goddess of magic best known as Mystra are the only "uber-gods" mortals have glimpsed, and that the others are hidden behind their arrays of names (for example, just one being is behind Silvanus, Eldath, Mielikki, and most of the other nature deities).
No mortal knows the truth behind all of this, mind you, so a DM can decide whatever he or she wishes - - or choose to NOT decide, being as they can arrange matters so that mortals (including PCs) never know.
(Here, I believe, is where I'm supposed to make "Bwoohahahaha" noises.)"
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 00:58:37
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| So has anyone read "Elminster Must Die"? yet. The book answers some questions to this thread but it also raises many more questions. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 01:35:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Personally, I don't think a God/Goddess of magic is really needed. Magic is something that eminates from the world and I don't think it needs to be controled by any deity.
Errr... a deity of magic, like Mystra, *is* the Weave. So Saith Ed.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4503 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 01:39:45
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Personally, I don't think a God/Goddess of magic is really needed. Magic is something that eminates from the world and I don't think it needs to be controled by any deity.
Errr... a deity of magic, like Mystra, *is* the Weave. So Saith Ed.
So if Mystra is the weave and (judging from you use of my previous post) the Weave is magic then why is there even magic in a post-Mystra, post-Weave world? That is, if your insinuating, that Mystra really isn't dead and thus the Weave/Magic of Faerun is still there? Going from my earlier post, magic is still alive and well without the need of the Weave but if they were to bring back Mystra and NOT alter the way magic work (and the use of the 4E system) them I'm all for it. |
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Ashe Ravenheart
Great Reader
USA
3256 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 02:02:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Personally, I don't think a God/Goddess of magic is really needed. Magic is something that eminates from the world and I don't think it needs to be controled by any deity.
Errr... a deity of magic, like Mystra, *is* the Weave. So Saith Ed.
So if Mystra is the weave and (judging from you use of my previous post) the Weave is magic then why is there even magic in a post-Mystra, post-Weave world? That is, if your insinuating, that Mystra really isn't dead and thus the Weave/Magic of Faerun is still there? Going from my earlier post, magic is still alive and well without the need of the Weave but if they were to bring back Mystra and NOT alter the way magic work (and the use of the 4E system) them I'm all for it.
Exactly what Ashe just said.  There is a reason why I've kept that little tidbit about Mystra in a handy-reference file, after all. |
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Brix
Learned Scribe
147 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 08:21:08
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I had mused about a campaign to ressurect Mystra in a campaign.
One of the James brothers (Matt?) did a similar thing for a RPGA campaign, with Mystra actually being hidden in Candlekeep. Unfortunatly I could not get any further infos about this idea. Maybe someone can tickle him?
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Caolin
Senior Scribe
769 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 09:56:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Personally, I don't think a God/Goddess of magic is really needed. Magic is something that eminates from the world and I don't think it needs to be controled by any deity.
Errr... a deity of magic, like Mystra, *is* the Weave. So Saith Ed.
So if Mystra is the weave and (judging from you use of my previous post) the Weave is magic then why is there even magic in a post-Mystra, post-Weave world? That is, if your insinuating, that Mystra really isn't dead and thus the Weave/Magic of Faerun is still there? Going from my earlier post, magic is still alive and well without the need of the Weave but if they were to bring back Mystra and NOT alter the way magic work (and the use of the 4E system) them I'm all for it.
I think the crux of the matter is the how and why things got changed. Mystra and thus the Weave, were killed off to make way for the new spell casting system in 4E. The fact that they killed off such and iconic figure in the FR setting just to pave the way for their "New and Improved" game system just rubs me raw. It lacked creativity.
But that is water under the bridge now. The bright side is that this is still a salvageable situation. The way things are set up now is that magic in it's raw form is powerful but very difficult to control. The act of using magic takes a physical toll on the caster. This makes it difficult to use and less accessible. That is the reason the Weave existed in the first place. As a way to tame the raw magic, making it safe to use and more accessible. That was Mystra's duty, to make magic accessible to all and that lore was carried through in the novels for the most part.
My sense on where WoTC will take this going forward is that they will eventually bring back Mystra or at the very least someone else as a deity of magic (or magic-users) along with a restablished Weave (possibly reduced in scope). But the cat is out of the bag with the knowledge of how to access the more powerful raw magic. So instead of Mystra having power over all magic-users. She would only have watch over the domain of Weave users and her church would be charged with converting non-Weave users away from raw magic.
But who knows, I could be dead wrong. But this seems to be the most logical way to clean up this mess. |
Edited by - Caolin on 13 Aug 2010 09:57:54 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 13 Aug 2010 : 10:25:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Diffan
Personally, I don't think a God/Goddess of magic is really needed. Magic is something that eminates from the world and I don't think it needs to be controled by any deity.
Errr... a deity of magic, like Mystra, *is* the Weave. So Saith Ed.
So if Mystra is the weave and (judging from you use of my previous post) the Weave is magic then why is there even magic in a post-Mystra, post-Weave world? That is, if your insinuating, that Mystra really isn't dead and thus the Weave/Magic of Faerun is still there? Going from my earlier post, magic is still alive and well without the need of the Weave but if they were to bring back Mystra and NOT alter the way magic work (and the use of the 4E system) them I'm all for it.
Interesting point. It may then mean that Mystra is not dead at all, just "hiding," living as an anonymous avatar cloaked with layers and layers of anti-divination so that Shar and her other nemeses won't have a chance of finding her, and mayhap she is also guarding the Weave surreptitiously from far away, and that Ao might have consented of this. I think I read somewhere in the Avatar series Ao mentioned that Mystra's role in the Pantheon is very crucial in maintaining the balance in the world, taking care of the most powerful source of energy that could either spell doom or save the world. This again led me to another theory: If Ao realized Mystra's essential role (even though he never hinted at any favoritism among the deities), then perhaps he was the mastermind in staging the SP. Maybe it was but an "act" to suit WotC's needs. It makes sense: remove the goddess (from the setting) that caused new and potential FR fans to shun FR totally, thinking the said deity is biased on good magic-users; and still maintain the balance of power in Faerun by actually "hiding" Mystra.
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Debate: New Mystra at some point in the future?
