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Nicolai Withander
Master of Realmslore
Denmark
1093 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Aug 2010 : 14:28:39
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So...
Amagine you standing on a plane of pure white light and in front of you you have a diety in true form, no avatar no image, but the real deal. Your there to tell that god, that you tire of its evil ways, so what could you possible do to hurt it? Could you suvive the presence? Could you hit it with a blade? Could spells harm him/her???
My question is simple... Can a mortal human/elf/dwarf and so on, harm a being who has a divine rank?
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4705 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2010 : 15:30:45
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Yes a human can kill a deity if comforting the deity on its home plane. At least in some of the Editions.
The odds of winning instead of dying are poor. A deity has a full range of spells including teleport without needing to make concentration checks or other wise disrupted. They can change the very shape of their home plane to establish barriers. Most have servants to come to their aid.
One can not kill a deity on a plane other then the deity's home.
Also in some Editions Deities are 10 times as powerful on their home plane.
A PC or a party in theory can kill a deity, however in practice (unless the DM messes up) the Deity will survive any attack and get revenge on the invader.
If you want to kill a deity, the best way would be having a deity slaying artifact and get close enough and be skilled enough that first attack works. |
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"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
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Snowblood
Senior Scribe
Australia
388 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2010 : 15:30:48
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| no..... |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2010 : 16:54:38
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| In 3.x DnD, deities of Divine Rank 8 or less are not particularly powerful. A strong character of level 35+ with smart feat selection can defeat deities of Rank 8 or lower, as they are written up in "Faiths and Pantheons". It is not needed to defeat them on their home planes in 3.x. Deities of Divine Rank higher than 8 are unstoppable, perhaps even by deities of. equal/higher rank. |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2010 : 17:00:06
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| I just wanted to add that deities in the FR, or DnD, are generally little more than extremely powerful mortals with OCD (regarding their portfolios). |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 21 Aug 2010 : 17:03:19
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| Nicolai, check out the divine rules at www.d20srd.org for answers to some of your other questions. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 07:49:19
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I would say that it depended on the style of the campaign. If you make the god and active opponent that tries to plot against the characters, more or less in the style of heroic myths, I would give them the chance to somehow defeat the villain through the use of an artifact, ancient ritual or something else along those lines. They could in addition also be protected by another power from some of the gods power. In no situation would I allow them to defeat a god through use of only their own powers and in standard combat. A hit with the cursed acorn of Abxoolzoot is a better choice than a long countdown of hit-points. A awakened ancient deity that was far from full power would be easier defeated though. But any such solutions should be a planned part of the campaign since the god started messing around with mere mortals.
But unless the gods are used this way I would say that they didn't have a chance an that they would be dead in a second if the god really wanted them dead. That's the way I would run it. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 16:57:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Brace Cormaeril
I just wanted to add that deities in the FR, or DnD, are generally little more than extremely powerful mortals with OCD (regarding their portfolios).
This.
That's exactly how I picture them - they are just 'normal' beings that have somehow achieved 'godhood' - its simply another state of existence, like Lichdom.
And continuing down this line of reasoning, then a deity's 'Divine Realm' becomes a manifestation of it's 'phylactory' - the repository of its real 'life force' - and therefore is vulnerable within that Realm.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
738 Posts |
Posted - 22 Aug 2010 : 17:23:19
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I can't speak for how deities were depicted in 3E or 3.5, but in 2E, there was a move away from "deities as monsters". Every old timer remembers the tale about one player writing to TSR (in the old days), requesting that TSR publish "Legends and Lore II", as he and his group had already killed all the gods in the first one.
In OD&D (the two Immortals sets), "Immortals" (deities under a different name) were fully statted out, and althoughthe Immortals were exponentially more powerful than mortals, they could be harmed by mortals. Very difficult for a mortal to do harm, let alone kill an Immortal, but it was not "outside the realm of possibility".
In 2E (and, particularly, with the advent of the Planescape line), deities became more distant, with their true forms being impossible to approach for mortals - the deities were forces of the multiverse, visible only to mortals through various manifestations, including avatars. That's the official line that I have stuck to.
Of course, one of Planescape's more persistent threads was about a Power (deity under different name, once more) which was slain by mortals, and then made a comeback, using a deity-slaying magic. So the "Powers-as-beyond-spell-fodder" was not exactly adhered to. Even I, with my high principles, have based a big part of the prehistory of my multiverse on the notion that there was a additional branch of the Gith, which, because of a particular mutation, had access to deity-slaying powers, which allowed them to keep the Powers down after the Gith broke the ancient mind flayer empire, and the Powers were thinking of moving into the Prime...
So - to sum it up, my high-minded principle on deities being immune to mortal attacks was, as they say, honored more in the breach than in the following  . |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 05:22:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Thauramarth
I can't speak for how deities were depicted in 3E or 3.5, but in 2E, there was a move away from "deities as monsters". Every old timer remembers the tale about one player writing to TSR (in the old days), requesting that TSR publish "Legends and Lore II", as he and his group had already killed all the gods in the first one.
In OD&D (the two Immortals sets), "Immortals" (deities under a different name) were fully statted out, and althoughthe Immortals were exponentially more powerful than mortals, they could be harmed by mortals. Very difficult for a mortal to do harm, let alone kill an Immortal, but it was not "outside the realm of possibility".
In 2E (and, particularly, with the advent of the Planescape line), deities became more distant, with their true forms being impossible to approach for mortals - the deities were forces of the multiverse, visible only to mortals through various manifestations, including avatars. That's the official line that I have stuck to.
Of course, one of Planescape's more persistent threads was about a Power (deity under different name, once more) which was slain by mortals, and then made a comeback, using a deity-slaying magic. So the "Powers-as-beyond-spell-fodder" was not exactly adhered to. Even I, with my high principles, have based a big part of the prehistory of my multiverse on the notion that there was a additional branch of the Gith, which, because of a particular mutation, had access to deity-slaying powers, which allowed them to keep the Powers down after the Gith broke the ancient mind flayer empire, and the Powers were thinking of moving into the Prime...
So - to sum it up, my high-minded principle on deities being immune to mortal attacks was, as they say, honored more in the breach than in the following .
Word, right?
In 3.5, we get the best of both. Divine Rank 9+, the gods are mind-bendingly untouchable. |
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glitter
Acolyte
France
45 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 09:49:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I would say that it depended on the style of the campaign. If you make the god and active opponent that tries to plot against the characters, more or less in the style of heroic myths, I would give them the chance to somehow defeat the villain through the use of an artifact, ancient ritual or something else along those lines.
That looks like wise words.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
But unless the gods are used this way I would say that they didn't have a chance an that they would be dead in a second if the god really wanted them dead. That's the way I would run it.
But here, I have to disagree.
As it has been said before, for 3.0/3.5 Ed, a deity with very few divine rank is a powerful foe, but can be killed by powerful characters even by folowing the rules.
Of course, I can't imagine 5 epic players thinking one day "let's kill x or Y since he has a low power god" or fighting a god alone since he is support by a church and followers. |
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- You’re a looney. |
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 09:58:06
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quote:
Originally posted by glitter
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
I would say that it depended on the style of the campaign. If you make the god and active opponent that tries to plot against the characters, more or less in the style of heroic myths, I would give them the chance to somehow defeat the villain through the use of an artifact, ancient ritual or something else along those lines.
That looks like wise words.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
But unless the gods are used this way I would say that they didn't have a chance an that they would be dead in a second if the god really wanted them dead. That's the way I would run it.
But here, I have to disagree.
As it has been said before, for 3.0/3.5 Ed, a deity with very few divine rank is a powerful foe, but can be killed by powerful characters even by folowing the rules.
Of course, I can't imagine 5 epic players thinking one day "let's kill x or Y since he has a low power god" or fighting a god alone since he is support by a church and followers.
I believe you. Sorry, but I don't use the newer editions so I have no knowledge about that they say on the subject (and never cared much about what the earlier editions said either to be honest. I am just talking from a general gaming viewpoint here. I don't care for the idea that gods are given stats and are viable opponents, but that is just a personal preference, which may or may not be supported by individual games. The rules, as you show, makes it quite possible that a god can be killed if that's how you want the campaign to develop, but I am still of the opinion that it is a rule that could be easily dropped in a campaign where the gods were really gods.
It all comes down to the style of the people playing. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 17:24:51
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| I'm kinda with Jorkens on this one. I prefer to have my gods meddle, but otherwise remain untouchable. I mean, after all, the Bible has plenty of examples of devine medlling in human affairs, yet he supposedly cannot even truly be SEEN by mortals, let alone harmed.... In my campaigns, only anther god can actually harm or kill a god. And avatars are merely earthly manifestations, so they do not count. To kill one, you have to be insanely powerful (a demi-god, at least), using god-killing artifacts, and on the deity's home-plane. Not much chance of THAT happening.... |
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Saxmilian
Learned Scribe
USA
157 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 20:45:41
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| Finder Wyvernspur (a mortal Harper) breaks open an Artifact of his creation, uses a Shard of Elemental Ice, afixes to his dagger and slays Moander in the books. I've never seen Finder's (mortal) stats but in doing so he becomes a Deity so apparently by Cannon its possible. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2010 : 21:25:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Saxmilian
Finder Wyvernspur (a mortal Harper) breaks open an Artifact of his creation, uses a Shard of Elemental Ice, afixes to his dagger and slays Moander in the books. I've never seen Finder's (mortal) stats but in doing so he becomes a Deity so apparently by Cannon its possible.
Yes but he had the help of Selune and Tymora.
In 2e the only way to kill a deity was with the help of another deity. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 01:49:49
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by Saxmilian
Finder Wyvernspur (a mortal Harper) breaks open an Artifact of his creation, uses a Shard of Elemental Ice, afixes to his dagger and slays Moander in the books. I've never seen Finder's (mortal) stats but in doing so he becomes a Deity so apparently by Cannon its possible.
Yes but he had the help of Selune and Tymora.
In 2e the only way to kill a deity was with the help of another deity.
Indeed. The 2e Faiths and Avatars source makes this quite clear. As does previous commentary from Ed, here at Candlekeep. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 02:39:20
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quote:
Originally posted by Saxmilian
Finder Wyvernspur (a mortal Harper) breaks open an Artifact of his creation, uses a Shard of Elemental Ice, afixes to his dagger and slays Moander in the books. I've never seen Finder's (mortal) stats but in doing so he becomes a Deity so apparently by Cannon its possible.
Actually, Finder did not create the finder's stone. He altered an existing artifact, inserting the para-elemental ice. |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 02:44:50
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Larloch, Srinshee, Pieregeron, Storm and Fzoul v. Uthgar.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 02:54:15
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| Me, if I was running a campaign, I'd keep the gods as the insanely powerful entities one would imagine when hearing about deities outside of D&D. In other words, most PCs would have about as much chance against a deity as a slingshot-armed Cub Scout troop against an M1 Abrams. |
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creyzi4zb12
Learned Scribe
Philippines
129 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 03:11:21
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| I know Cyric killed one when he was human. |
orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc orc |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 04:33:55
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quote:
Originally posted by creyzi4zb12
I know Cyric killed one when he was human.
But he used Godsbane, an avatar of Mask -- so that still fits the requirement of needing divine assistance. |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 04:54:54
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| If the plot calls for it, yes. |
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glitter
Acolyte
France
45 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 09:42:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens
Sorry, but I don't use the newer editions so I have no knowledge about that they say on the subject
You don't have to be sorry, my group kept the background before the ToT up to 2006 
And of course, if you use the rules of older editions, it's sure that killing a god is an impossible task per the rule IIRC.
quote:
Originally posted by Jorkens I am just talking from a general gaming viewpoint here.
I do agree with you, no problem with that.
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-The black knight is invincible!
- You’re a looney. |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2010 : 16:29:39
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I think it is important to think of the deities in D&D as people in the Ancient World (RL) thought of deities. Tales of mortals defeating these vainglorious overlords were common. It wasn't until the advent of "One God"s did gods become "all powerful".
To the OP:
You can go any way you want with this, DnD has certainly tried it all. OD&D had products dedicated to slaying and becoming a deity, 1st edition had similar products, I guess 2e's "Faiths and Pantheons" states one thing while the "Planescape" line states another. In 3e you'll find rules that scale to whatever level of power you wish to play at, and 3e's "Faiths and Pantheons" states that PC's can defeat some Powers.
There is a *big* difference between a Rank 0-1 deity and a Rank 18-20 deity. IMO, the most powerful ability of the Powers is their Portfolio Sense. Intermediate Powers (those of Rank 11+) extend their senses both forwards and backwards in time. This alone makes deities of this Rank "mind-bendingly untouchable".
So have fun, let your imagination run wild, and tell a good tale. However, from a (3.x) rules perspective, stomping down a power becomes impossible if that power is Rank 11+. |
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Mr_Miscellany
Senior Scribe
545 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2010 : 20:46:17
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The Faiths and Pantheons web enhancement ("Deity Do's and Dont's" by Sean K. Reynolds) gives some excellent advice on how DMs can decide to use the deities in their game. Linky: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020504a
It's too bad the bean counters at WotC didn't include this with the actual tome. Much more useful than the wasted space taken up by deity stats.
As to the OP's question: it's up to your DM, regardless of what the rules say. |
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Brace Cormaeril
Learned Scribe
294 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 14:44:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Mr_Miscellany
The Faiths and Pantheons web enhancement ("Deity Do's and Dont's" by Sean K. Reynolds) gives some excellent advice on how DMs can decide to use the deities in their game. Linky: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20020504a
It's too bad the bean counters at WotC didn't include this with the actual tome. Much more useful than the wasted space taken up by deity stats.
As to the OP's question: it's up to your DM, regardless of what the rules say.
It doesn't suprise me that Miscellany would enjoy a product enhancement dedicated to inexperienced players.
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Jorkens
Great Reader
Norway
2950 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 14:57:31
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And why is that?
It doesn't surprise me that Mr Miscellany (as most of us here)enjoys Realms lore no matter what the form. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
37010 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 16:02:43
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Yes, that comes across as a rather pointed personal attack, and we don't condone that here. I'm hoping it wasn't meant that way.  |
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HelldoG
Learned Scribe
101 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2010 : 20:40:51
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@ Wooly Rupert
You know good old Bracie. He definitly didn't mean it that way ;). |
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