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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 02:06:47
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Elaine seems to be busy...so I decided to seek some answers from you, fellow scribes.
I'm rereading The Magehound. I noticed that the Halruaan wizards specialized in a school or type of magic (divination, conjuration, necromancy, etc...), while their ancestors, the fallen Netherese, pursued wizardry without specialization. I also reread Troy Denning's The Netheril Trilogy, and found nothing that pointed out or even hinted that the Neths indeed practiced magic-specialization. But I might be wrong in this. Which leads me to my question: Did the Halruaan wizards simply follow their ancestors in the practice of magic- specialization (and that Troy simply opted to leave such practice unsaid in his books)? Did they adopt it from the Red Wizards of Thay (who also adopted it from the Imaskari)? Or did they simply practice it without reference to any race as they saw it fit to run their nation?
Also, I am quite (strangely) intrigued by the laraken. I wonder, is there any spell (other than silverfire) or type of magic that it could not absorb, or that if it would absorb, would cause its demise? Spellfire perhaps? Or the phaerimm's version of the silverfire? Or Shadow Weave-based spells? Lastly, is it vulnerable to the psionic power of illithids and aboleths?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Dracons
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 02:51:25
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The Neths did specialize, just in a different way then standard wizards.
There was Invention, Mentalism, and Variation.
They were specialise in one field, had a minor in the second, and was blocked from the third.
Though in second edition, Neth wizards had basically MP rather then spell slots. (And MASSIVE pools of Mp at that!) |
I love PMs! Please send me a message. Even if its Hi. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Sep 2010 : 03:26:48
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Thanks, Dracons. I think Invention can be a province of Transmutation, Enchantment, and Necromancy...
Given that the Neths didn't have the present standard of specialization, from whom then did the Halruaans adopt it?
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Spell Savant
Acolyte
2 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 15:02:27
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As you pointed out, the Netherese didn't have the present standard of specialization because the rules of magic functioned differently under Mystryl than they later would with Mystra. I don't think the people who would become the Halruaans "adopted" the more familiar and current specializations from anyone. They probably developed it on their own, as countless other magic-rich societies probably did. After all, whether they're a Thayan, Mulhorandi, Halruaan, Deep Imaskari, or what have you, specialists all function in pretty much the same way (under game rules).
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"Know, O mages, that there is learning and there is wisdom -- and they are very far from being the same thing."--Azuth the High One, Utterances from the Altar: Collected Verbal Manifestations of the Divine and Most Holy Lord of Spells (holy chapbook, assembled by anonymous priests of Azuth circa 1358 DR)
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 16:21:35
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Most wizards are generalists: trying to master all forms of magic. Only a few nations or cities strictly practice specialization, most notably Thay. So I wonder why Halruaans chose to specialize, and if they made it themselves or adopted it from some.
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Every beginning has an end. |
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Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2449 Posts |
Posted - 16 Sep 2010 : 17:48:48
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I don't have my books atm, but I think most of Transmutation fell under Variation, not Invention (which I think had most of Evocation). But the dividing lines weren't neatly drawn, and spells from some modern schools would end up in one Neth school while others would be in a different one.
There have been other types of specialization down the years before modern mages more-or-less settled on the current (game) form. One older version is elven Dualism, as detailed in the Cormanthor box set, where you specialize in one school of magic and its reverse. Dualists are gone in the modern day, but their descendants the Dukars (Sea of Fallen Stars) are still around. Another kind of specialization is elementalism (2e Tome of Magic), and then we've also got the various wizards of Zakhara. There's plenty of variation still around.
One question I think is interesting is where the concept of the eight magical schools came from. It's obviously a very old idea, since the elves were basing their specialists on it way back in the Crown Wars, well before any humans learned to cast magic. So, did the elves develop it? Or was it something they got from someone else? Remember, they didn't have any interaction with the Ba'etith or the Nether Scrolls, though planewalkers are always a possibility. Are the eight schools the only way of looking at magic? (Obviously not, since the Netherese did things differently) If not, why did that way of looking at magic become the accepted way. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 00:31:29
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There was a rather intriguing idea in the Book of Secrets, a 3rd party work, where the eight schools of magic each derived from the first eight layers of hell, and the 9th layer is where Bardic magic hails from.
Not something I would use, but an interesting theory. It was tied to a Dragon that ruled each layer (obviously a conflict with planer canon there). The magic of the Ninth layer did not derived from it's ruler, but rather the 'one pure soul' trapped within hell at its deepest layer (which happened to be yet another dragon - although I forget the particulars - each layer had a different type associated with it and the magic).
IMG, the schools of magic were brought-over from Oerth (Greyhawk), which is why the spell-names are from there (I started running FR in 2e, if you'll recall, and came from GH). Of course, after I learned much more about FR and added-in my own homebrew lore, I had it go round-robin, and the schools of magic, albeit somewhat different then today's, originated with the Imaskari, who brought it to Oerth and taught it to the Saul, which was an outpost of their's.
In my homebrew lore, the Weave was more 'primitive' at the time of Imaskar, and didn't have the neat schools of magic attached to it yet. So the Imaskari used their knowledge of translocation magics to open limited (filtered) portals to elemental planes and directly tap-into the energies there... Thaumaturgy. All of Imaskari magic up to a time was based upon their abilty to move objects and energy through space, and even across dimensions. They found ways to tap into almost everything, including divine energies (which got them in trouble, of course), and powers of other planes (the lower planes, and toward the end the Far Realms).
When the Shou interloped and joined the Imaskari Empire (in their own kingdom of Tsharoon), they brought with them Advanced Golemic Sciences, which reinvigorated Imaskari magic and ushered in a new 'golden age'.
Which lead to the two main branches of their magic combining and creating the first sentient Automatons (by summoning spirit-essence from the planes and binding it into a construct). Which in-turn lead to yet another reason for the gods to get angry - the Modrons they created were a little TOO powerful and they had to 'port the lot of them into Nirvana (where they eventually learned to re-create themselves and eventually took-over, renaming the plane 'Mechanus').
All homebrew, nothing canon - your mileage may vary.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Sep 2010 01:00:11 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Sep 2010 : 01:26:31
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We shouldn't really dismiss the "school" [and I use the term very loosely] of utility-magic specialisation or mercantile arcane practices either. They're disciplines which largely focus on mages who learn and utilise arcane powers to assist in the operation of day-to-day life in urban communities across the Realms.
As usual, Ed has shown us the way. There's a scene in one of his novels which shows a mage-for-hire levitating trade goods and is an insightful glimpse of mercantile wizardry. |
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Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 16:54:18
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I think the Imaskari were the ones who created the 8 schools of magic. The earliest writing that recorded wizards' specialization dated back to the time of Imaskar.
There's a form of magic that merits consideration: Intensification. Would it grand to have a School of Intensification, where wizards can “intensify” spells from the 8 existing schools? It might be the biggest challenge a wizard can ever undertake, for he has to learn first at least all the basics of the 8 schools before he could apply intensification. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
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Farrel
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
239 Posts |
Posted - 14 Oct 2011 : 17:34:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Wouldn't that fall under metamagic?
That's precisely what I was thinking too. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 10:19:04
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Psionics is sometimes called the "Invisible Art." Does it mean it is still magic, given that Art, in the Realms, is another name for magic? If that is the case, then laraken can also absorb it? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 15:42:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Psionics is sometimes called the "Invisible Art." Does it mean it is still magic, given that Art, in the Realms, is another name for magic? If that is the case, then laraken can also absorb it?
My take on psionics is that it is not magic. However, to most people in the Realms, it looks like magic and acts like magic, therefore it must be "magic". An Art, yes, but not the same Art that most people think it to be. |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 16 Oct 2011 15:42:44 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11700 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 20:54:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Elaine seems to be busy...so I decided to seek some answers from you, fellow scribes.
I'm rereading The Magehound. I noticed that the Halruaan wizards specialized in a school or type of magic (divination, conjuration, necromancy, etc...), while their ancestors, the fallen Netherese, pursued wizardry without specialization. I also reread Troy Denning's The Netheril Trilogy, and found nothing that pointed out or even hinted that the Neths indeed practiced magic-specialization. But I might be wrong in this. Which leads me to my question: Did the Halruaan wizards simply follow their ancestors in the practice of magic- specialization (and that Troy simply opted to leave such practice unsaid in his books)? Did they adopt it from the Red Wizards of Thay (who also adopted it from the Imaskari)? Or did they simply practice it without reference to any race as they saw it fit to run their nation?
Also, I am quite (strangely) intrigued by the laraken. I wonder, is there any spell (other than silverfire) or type of magic that it could not absorb, or that if it would absorb, would cause its demise? Spellfire perhaps? Or the phaerimm's version of the silverfire? Or Shadow Weave-based spells? Lastly, is it vulnerable to the psionic power of illithids and aboleths?
SOME wizards of Halruaa specialize. Its not like Thay where nearly every wizard specializes. I'd venture Halruaa's probably like everywhere else when it comes to that and the majority of its casters are non-specialists. After all, Mystra holds all spellcasting as sacred (note there I did say spellcasting... there may be mysteries over which she holds no sway, such as binding & incarnum). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
11700 Posts |
Posted - 16 Oct 2011 : 20:58:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
There was a rather intriguing idea in the Book of Secrets, a 3rd party work, where the eight schools of magic each derived from the first eight layers of hell, and the 9th layer is where Bardic magic hails from.
Not something I would use, but an interesting theory. It was tied to a Dragon that ruled each layer (obviously a conflict with planer canon there). The magic of the Ninth layer did not derived from it's ruler, but rather the 'one pure soul' trapped within hell at its deepest layer (which happened to be yet another dragon - although I forget the particulars - each layer had a different type associated with it and the magic).
IMG, the schools of magic were brought-over from Oerth (Greyhawk), which is why the spell-names are from there (I started running FR in 2e, if you'll recall, and came from GH). Of course, after I learned much more about FR and added-in my own homebrew lore, I had it go round-robin, and the schools of magic, albeit somewhat different then today's, originated with the Imaskari, who brought it to Oerth and taught it to the Saul, which was an outpost of their's.
In my homebrew lore, the Weave was more 'primitive' at the time of Imaskar, and didn't have the neat schools of magic attached to it yet. So the Imaskari used their knowledge of translocation magics to open limited (filtered) portals to elemental planes and directly tap-into the energies there... Thaumaturgy. All of Imaskari magic up to a time was based upon their abilty to move objects and energy through space, and even across dimensions. They found ways to tap into almost everything, including divine energies (which got them in trouble, of course), and powers of other planes (the lower planes, and toward the end the Far Realms).
When the Shou interloped and joined the Imaskari Empire (in their own kingdom of Tsharoon), they brought with them Advanced Golemic Sciences, which reinvigorated Imaskari magic and ushered in a new 'golden age'.
Which lead to the two main branches of their magic combining and creating the first sentient Automatons (by summoning spirit-essence from the planes and binding it into a construct). Which in-turn lead to yet another reason for the gods to get angry - the Modrons they created were a little TOO powerful and they had to 'port the lot of them into Nirvana (where they eventually learned to re-create themselves and eventually took-over, renaming the plane 'Mechanus').
All homebrew, nothing canon - your mileage may vary.
Yeah, I love that idea that that's where the Modrons came from. Having construct outsiders actually having an origin on the material plane is very interesting. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 03:01:11
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Psionics is sometimes called the "Invisible Art." Does it mean it is still magic, given that Art, in the Realms, is another name for magic?
Consider what most people in the Realms know of magic -- divine or arcane, for the most part in their daily lives. Then think about what these same common people see when a psion/psionicist comes into town and makes a few displays of his/her power. Ultimately, what they're seeing as a result of these individual systems of energy-usage, is pretty much the same. Unless they have specific knowledge about how each of these powers have been generated, they're likely to place them all under the simple label of "magic." |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2011 : 04:51:21
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Psionics is sometimes called the "Invisible Art." Does it mean it is still magic, given that Art, in the Realms, is another name for magic?
Consider what most people in the Realms know of magic -- divine or arcane, for the most part in their daily lives. Then think about what these same common people see when a psion/psionicist comes into town and makes a few displays of his/her power. Ultimately, what they're seeing as a result of these individual systems of energy-usage, is pretty much the same. Unless they have specific knowledge about how each of these powers have been generated, they're likely to place them all under the simple label of "magic."
Perhaps my question should have been, do the laraken absorb only magic, or [nearly] all types of energy? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Schools of Magic and the Laraken
