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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 18:38:01
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so, lets discuss. What do we know about it?
Presumably, it was 'a world without gods'. It also had a silver sky, although that may have only been Returned Abeir (which would be odd).
Here's my take - it is what Toril looked like before the fall of the creator races. It is a more primal version of the Realms, and Draconic entities have taken the place of gods for most of the populace.
I also have a theory that the two worlds weren't as separate as folks once thought - we have several canon examples of portals leading to dinosaur-filled regions. To take this a step-further, I think the world Elminster briefly traveled to - the Saurial 'homeworld' - was actually Abeir! Apparently, it was 'ruled' by huge dragon-like creatures (like feathered dragons). More on this below.
Another idea - back when we (briefly) worked on Maztica on the WotC boards, we had translated the Maztican pantheon into the Draconic one (and the fit was amazingly good). Yesterday, thanks to another thread, I happen to read through parts of RoF, and discovered that the Mazticans used the Draconic alphabet! Coincidence? I think not. I don't think Maztica was 'sucked into' Abeir - I think it just 'went home'! 
Thats right - my new theory is that Maztica wasn't supposed to be in the Realms - it was a piece of Abeir that was transposed long ago. That places some of its lore ('The Ancients', Mica, etc) in a whole new light. It also makes absolute sense, in terms of their mythology - Maztica (their Earthmother) left them long ago.
Also, I have come across several plot-hooks regarding 'ancient, strange elves' (amongst other 'lost folk') appearing in different parts of Toril. Now, these were probably written with the idea that they were Elves that had fallen through a time-portal, but what if they were from a different world? What if that world was Abeir? What if the Road of Stars and Shadows had a few connections to Abeir?
In Ravenloft, there is a group of native-American like people called the Abber Nomads, who are the only people capable of living within the ever-changing landscape of the Nightmare Lands. What if that is a misspelling of their real name? What if they are Abeir Nomads? What if their penchant for 'changing geography' stems from them having lived in a region that was once covered in earthmotes? (similar to the folk in Secret of the Sixth Magic). They could be used to that because they had something similar going-on back on Abeir.
So now I'm getting this picture in my head of a very primitive world, where iron isn't in great use by most cultures (bronze age at best), covered with jungles and wind-swept 'badlands' riddled with earthmotes. Like on Athas, Arcane magic is hard to come by, as is divine magic (their are no deities - only primordials). You may have several cultures that are psionic in nature, and others may have started worshiping 'dragons', just as in Dark Sun (which is actually Abeir canon that they did so). If it worked like in DS, then the dragons would have been going through their own transcendence into 'powers', and able to grant followers spells. A world where dragons have taken the place of gods!
As I have said above, I am getting back to the Saurials: I have decided, due to some odd Malatra lore, that Saurials are NOT non-native to Toril. The exact same four sub-species exist in Malatra (in the Living Jungle), and always have!
My theory on this: Saurials are four other branches of the Sarrukh race. As the Sauroid (that term is canon) creator Race rose to prominence, several distinctive groups emerged. The Sarrukh were probably the ruling class, and also its archmagi (similar to the Netherease). Eventually the sarrukh's politics no longer meshed-well with the other sauroids, and a war of extermination began, which drove many of the non-Sarrukh into hiding (the Saurials). The group in malatra is just one such group of hidden survivors.
And the rest went to to Abeir when the world was split. Just one more thing Ao wanted to separate. Whereas the Sarrukh would all but die-off over the next few millenia, the Saurials thrived in their new world.
So watcha think? I just turned Abeir into 'the Savage Land' - a mostly verdant, primeval world, with dinosaurs and dragon-kings.
Discuss.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Dec 2010 18:38:58
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Matt James
Forgotten Realms Game Designer
USA
918 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 18:50:33
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| I like your theory on Maztica and it makes a good bit of sense when trying to piece it all together. I shall have to think on this a bit. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Dec 2010 : 19:12:22
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Oh, and 'Rune magic' has taken the place of most arcane magic. I just thought of this, since the 'Bronze Age' part has given the whole thing a bit of a classic Runequest vibe.
Runepriests for the Realms! 
I don't want it to just be 'the Realms with dinosaurs', I want it to feel different.
Maybe have Incarnum replace psionics there (in my own head, they are related magics anyway - something that is channeled from within).
I have also been toying with Empyrea being from Abeir, since FR has borrowed so much lore from there, it kinda makes sense. The only thing is, I would do the exact opposite of what I did with Maztica - I would say it used to be on Toril in ages past, and got transposd onto Abeir. I was going to see how it looked pasted on the east coast of Yal Tengri (where I would guess it came from, had it once been part of toril). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8043 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 00:33:53
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Those are interesting ideas, Markus. Especially your ideas about Maztica.
Some comments:
The "ancient, strange elves" are probably just star elves, or simply non-natives of Toril (ie, variant elves from Krynn, Oerth, spelljamming, or planescape settings). Elves are awfully finicky and discriminating, they tend to be suspicious of foreign elf types (especially those they don't recognize); while non-elves tend to hardly have a clue about the finer distinctions between elven subraces unless they're erudite about such trivia. It's impossible to say more about which elves they are without knowing which sources you're referencing (they might even just be "normal" drow, aquatic, or daemonfey/fey'ri elves, possibly even eladrin or Faerie/Feywild beasties).
I'm not so sure Abeir would lack arcane magic because ... well, dragons and dragonborn.
Also, note that two of the four saurial races make extraordinary priest and wizard classes, apparently with well-established access to magic before they arrived in Toril. Moander may have been involved in importing the saurials, and if so then he would have had access to their homeworld - my understanding is that the Faerûnian deities should not have any access to or knowledge of Abeir (though I could be wrong on this). These facts suggest the saurial homeworld is not Abeir or that Abeir does have spellcasting.
Though of course Abeir doesn't (or probably doesn't) have a Weave or Shadow Weave ... maybe they can still cast (up to 12th level and beyond) arcane spells, Netherese style (lol, meaning 1E style)? Revised D&D canon simulaneously claims Mystra's power reaches the entire cosmos and that Faerûnian deities were completely blind to Abeir (unless I'm mistaken) - so which is it then?
If the sarrukh all relocated to Abeir then the Terraseer could've been stranded on Toril. By accident. Or by design - his own or that of his race - perhaps for some special purpose? If so, then is his task something he's already done, is still doing, or something that has yet to occur? Maybe the spellplague is all his fault, lol, or maybe he's some kind of spy or agent in an intercosmic war?
The possibility of pre-spellplague access to the world of Abeir is intriguing. How would this be done? Simple "alternate Prime" planewalking or something more involved? Did Abeir have any history of outer planar visitors (fiends, giths, etc) or of spelljamming visitors? It might be that every competently planar wizard (or at least one who can can Elminster's Worldwalk spell has always had access to Abeir, at least once they've learned of its existence. Though, again, arcane spellcasting draws from the Weave (damn Mystra's interference, forcing wizards to become glorified goddess-dependent priests) ... |
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Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Dec 2010 01:02:36 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 01:13:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
In Ravenloft, there is a group of native-American like people called the Abber Nomads, who are the only people capable of living within the ever-changing landscape of the Nightmare Lands. What if that is a misspelling of their real name? What if they are Abeir Nomads? What if their penchant for 'changing geography' stems from them having lived in a region that was once covered in earthmotes? (similar to the folk in Secret of the Sixth Magic). They could be used to that because they had something similar going-on back on Abeir.
You've got me thinking on this, Markus.
Hmmm. I'd already previously tied the Abber nomads to the people of Osse. In fact, as I've plotted it, the character of Gunggari [as well as his dizheri], from the Lady of Poison novel, is largely interpreted as a reflection of Abber nomadic culture in the Realms.
But, as I said, you've got me thinking on an Abeir connection now. Hmmm. |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 03:11:13
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| I'm not sure what to think of this yet. I'm still trying to get settled over being stunned at how much of the "4E Realms Kool-Aid" you've been drinking lately, Markustay |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 03:23:42
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As for the Abber/Abeir thing... I, personally, don't like to assume that just because two words are similar, there's a connection there. There are a great many words in the English languages that differ only by a single letter, yet have absolutely nothing to do with each other -- so I'd expect the same from other languages.
I need more than just a perhaps coincidental similarity to assume a connection. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 03:38:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
As for the Abber/Abeir thing... I, personally, don't like to assume that just because two words are similar, there's a connection there. There are a great many words in the English languages that differ only by a single letter, yet have absolutely nothing to do with each other -- so I'd expect the same from other languages.
I need more than just a perhaps coincidental similarity to assume a connection.
Aye. Which is why I made possible cultural connections between the Abber and Osse people, when I started working on my own interpretation. As I see it, some aspects of Abber Dreamwalking are very similar to the Aboriginal concept of the Dreamtime as well. So it only seemed natural to try and combine them. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Gray Richardson
Master of Realmslore
USA
1291 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 04:35:25
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While Abeir had no gods, it would have had plenty of primordials, and that would have shaped their culture in some significant ways.
I tend to agree that Abeir would not have had a Weave, and suspect, therefore, that magic in Abeir would have to have drawn on what Ed calls raw magic, unchanneled and uncivilized by Mystryl/Mystra's weave. Abeiran magic, then, would probably look a lot like 4th edition magic. I figure that Abeiran mages would have played a very crucial part in helping the magical arts to develop as far as they have in just 100 years following the Spellplague. They would not have been handicapped by the failure of the Weave at all--because they never used it to begin with. Dragonborn, dragons, genasi and the other races of Abeir developed their magical systems without it.
In a pocket universe out of phase with Toril's crystal sphere, there is some question about whether there were any stars, planets or even a sun. Returned Abeir has a shimering luminescent Steelsky, and my own theory is that the primoridials created it (or possibly just the one primordial sacrificed his life to create it) in order to provide some source of light and heat.
This reminds me of the myth where some god (Thor? Apollo?) plants carrots with a giant, and when it comes time to harvest them they decide how to split the crop fairly. The god volunteers to take the bottom half and give the top half to the giant. Afterwards the giant realizes he was tricked so the next crop he demands to have the bottom half, so the god plants beans or some such and the giant gets stuck with the roots and the god gets the edible part.
I imagine that Abeir could have involved some kind of unfair trick on the primordials with an ostensibly fair and equal division of the world, but with the primordials getting the short end of the stick. Like no sun perhaps. Maybe the gods honored the exact letter of the peace treaty and granted the primordials every thing that was bargained for, but somehow screwed them over. However, the solutions that the primordials came up with to solve their predicaments might have led to some pretty innovative fixes that could have altered their society in major and interesting ways. Such as the Steelsky, for instance. No sun? How about a luminescent steel shell that provides heat and light like a funky, ubiquitous Aurora Borealis?
It is possible that the Steelsky was not even the first or the second attempt to jerry-rig a light source. Tolkien had his lamps and his trees before the gods crafted a sun and moon. Maybe the primordials initially improvised something else before finally settling on the Steelsky, a flaming chariot? 12 flaming titans that wandered about the surface providing heat and light? Maybe they scorched a good bit of the planet as a side effect of their trials and errors.
What else can we gather about Abeir? Well, the population would have way fewer humans and demihumans (at least in the beginning, they might have bred up to a sizable population over the millennia) so the population would have lots of dragons, titans, giants, elemental creatures of all stripes. Genies too. Lots of genasi due to interbreeding with humans. And dragonborn, of course. Kobolds and other dragon kin.
In the revealed lore, dwarves were created or at least enslaved by Titans. There might be a lot of dwarves over in Abeir. In fact the dwarven population of Toril might have been refugees from Abeir. They appeared mysteriously in the Yehimals about 16000 or 17000 years ago right? Maybe Moradin rescued the dwarven clan fathers and brought them through a gate from Abeir to Toril.
Lastly, I agree that Abeir would look like a clone of Toril as it was some 30,0000 years ago, before the elven sundering changed the face of Toril. One might start then with the map from the GHotR as a base showing what Toril looked like pre-sundering. Although, for all we know, Abeir could have suffered its own depredations and cataclysms in that same amount of time. Abeir may have diverged greatly from that map in its own significant ways in the intervening millennia.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8043 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 04:37:43
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I agree the name is likely coincident, but this Abber/Abeir association is still interesting. "A beer" and "amber" are also related, hmmm ...
Then again, Abber could just as easily mean "abberation" or just be the name of some famous hunter of no other consequence.
Are the genasi of Abeir the result of easy access to the elemental planes? (And, though these planes at least, access to the rest of the planar cosmos?)
Or just the opposite - was some population of elementals instead stranded on Abeir when it was moved? Or a variation of the latter, where things could/can be summoned into Abeir but (as in the Ravenloft demiplane) then be unable to leave under normal circumstances? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 29 Dec 2010 04:44:42 |
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Brimstone
Great Reader
USA
3290 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 07:47:40
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In Realms of the Dead a story set in Returned Abeir for what it's worth. It was written by Bruce Cordell.
I kinda wish WotC would flesh Abeir out a little more... |
"These things also I have observed: that knowledge of our world is
to be nurtured like a precious flower, for it is the most precious
thing we have. Wherefore guard the word written and heed
words unwritten and set them down ere they fade . . . Learn
then, well, the arts of reading, writing, and listening true, and they
will lead you to the greatest art of all: understanding."
Alaundo of Candlekeep |
Edited by - Brimstone on 29 Dec 2010 13:55:16 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8043 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 08:19:39
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| Wizbro could market an entire product setting for Abeir, called Forgotten Smlaer. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Arioch
Learned Scribe
Italy
222 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 09:39:59
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| I really like your ideas on Maztica, Markustay! I'll certainly use them in my campaigns! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 11:29:44
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Thanks Arioch (love your name, BTW).
Ummm... guys... I'm not saying "This is how it is..."
What I am doing is finding random bits of old lore, from multiple sources, that could be connected to Abeir. I'm well-aware that when Nightmare Lands was written, NO ONE was thinking about Abeir. 
This is 'an exercise' in finding connections that were obviously not meant to be at the time they were written. Like those Elves - it is left that way so that the DM could decide where/when they were from (and you just gotta love 1eFR for that).
What I am doing is finding possible connections in past-lore in order to better-establish Abeir as part of the realms we all enjoy, regardless of edition.
Here's another - a long while back Brian James said that the 'crystal mountains' that appeared in Cormyr in his 4e piece were actually the same ones from the Avatar Crisis. What he did there was connect the SP to the ToT, and anchor it in previous lore (which is great). Also, by bringing 'The Redwoods' into the Realms (from Abeir), he fixes a previous lore-glitch which states Giant Redwoods are NOT native to Toril... and yet we had a forest in the Western Heartlands (forget precisely which one) that contained Giant Redwoods (and IIRC, this was discussed in the L-List, or the Q&A here). Now we can assume that those other Redwoods were also transposed at some time in the past, which keeps all canon coherent.
Thats what I'm talking about - we can USE Abeir to fix some things, and answer some questions, and also just make ourselves feel more 'at home' with the whole concept.
I see people's point about there having to be magic, but what I was talking about was Arcane, Weave-based magic. HOWEVER, in retrospect, obviously Abeir had some connection to the Weave, else why would it's collapse cause parts of it to switch with Toril? Somehow, it seems the weave itself was part of the 'barrier' that held the two worlds apart.
Was the world the Orcgate opened onto ever mentioned (by name)? Not that I'm really 'feeling' Orcs for Abeir. I get a whole, different (almost reptilian) vibe from it. As for the sarrukh - they died (except the few survivors we know of). My point was that the existence of the Malatran Saurial negates the fact they are non-native, so I was really thinking those four have a nation somewhere on Abeir. The Sarrukh would have been a fifth type of Saurial, and there were probably others (I believe the novels featuring them did mention that there were other types 'back home'). The surviving Sarrukh probably think all the (other) Saurials are dead, and would probably be surprised to find out they are not (and angry that they did so much better then the Sarrukh themselves).
If the planet had a continuous light and heat-source, and if we factor-in little climactic change (such a world would be without seasons), then my interpretation of a hot and sticky jungle world, with pockets of 'blasted badlands' (earthmotes floating about in dangerous numbers), with cooler (temperate) regions only lying along the coasts, makes perfect sense. Perhaps the waters of Abeir are very chilly, to off-set the constant light and heat form the sky; since Primordial (Elemental) powers are involved, controling the climate in such a heavy-handed fashion sounds about right.
In fact, the war between the Giants and the Dragons may still be going on there (they never had Uluitu or any of that). Or conversely, the Giants may have enslaved the Dragons at one time, and the dragons revolted, and now become the tyrants themselves (so that Giants are very rare, and only live in remote regions).
We could also say that the Shalaran homeland was on Abeir (and I'm aware of the GHotR entry that says otherwise, but I find that to be a really weird 'opportunity missed').
Love all of your thoughts, Gray (as usual).
quote:
Originally posted by Razz
I'm not sure what to think of this yet. I'm still trying to get settled over being stunned at how much of the "4E Realms Kool-Aid" you've been drinking lately, Markustay
When one has nothing but Kool-Aid, you either take a sip, or die of thirst.  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Dec 2010 11:35:08 |
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Marc
Senior Scribe
662 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 13:51:56
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What if first there were sauroids, then dragons and now's the time of quetzalcoatl, the mythical return of the Aztecs, the evolution into feathered dragons.
fyi I'm not an expert on Maztica or Abeir, or want to be, but didn't you forgot about the pluma magic? |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Dec 2010 : 23:29:19
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I forget nothing! 
LOL.. that's not true...
But I dd have Pluma/Hishna magic in-mind as well. My posts are already over-long, and I was hoping others would chime-in with ideas of their own.
Going with this Maztica theory, I would say that Pluma/Hishna was a very primitive form of elemental (Primordial) 'magic', that is still practiced heavily in parts of Abeir (the less-civilized regions). I'm picturing an amalgam of native American and Aboriginal customs and beliefs, wherein 'totemic spirits' can be summoned from the 'Dreamtime' (which is actually the untamed portions of the Feywild outside of Faerie-proper). And yeah, I have merged the Beastlands into that part of the Feywild as well (although I should really find out what 4e did with the Beastlands/Happy Hunting Grounds). I don't want this thread to start over-lapping with the Fey one, but my mental map of the Feywild is like concentric rings, very similar to how the Outlands is laid out. The 'Beastlands' would probably be the outer-most layer, and probably would include those Mountain ranges I discussed in the other thread - the home of the Planer giants.
What that does is allow us to have Pluma/Hishna draw from the Fey power source, giving its 'nature' leanings, it makes some sense (IMHO).
Which brings me to another point - the Road of Stars and Darkness, was utilized by the ancient elves, but wasn't created by them. It actually pre-existed the sundering, and was created by the Creator Races. All four were heavily involved with Gate-building, but the only ones who are not really known for it are the Aearee, mostly because their gates primarily exist in the air itself, high above the ground, or on hard-to-reach mountaintops (or on earthmotes )
Planer Conjecture:
The original network stayed on Toril, but a few Gates were transplanted (over-looked?) onto Abeir, and rarer-still are the gate-pairs that had both ends on two different worlds. I propose that these very rare couplings managed to stay active, and were one of the best-kept secrets in The Realms. I would also propose that these should all be Fey-Gates (in origin), because each race wuld have had their own magical traditions, and I could see the fey having built portals that 'tunnel through' the Ethereal Plane, which is really the Dreamtime, which had pieces broken off later to become the Feywild and Shadowfel. Before that, Shadow (nightmares) and Dream were mixed together in the dream-plane, and were 'distilled out' during the sundering, much like how the elements were separated into the Elemental planes (probably at the same time, and you'll note they have now also 'snapped-back' to their original, non-regimented, condition of the Maelstrom). This could also be when the Beastlands became separate from the Dreamtime (which have now returned to their rightful place, in my own homebrew cosmology).
And now back to the topic...
Anyhow, by connecting all that together, and saying Abeir still had access to the Feywild, that gives us a tenuous connection between Abeir and Toril. Most of the (VERY) rare travel betewen the two would have been accidental in-nature, with an 'Enchanted forest' from the feywild over-lapping parts of Toril one day, and parts of Abeir the next (in the same way Ravenloft sends out 'the mists' to grab folk, Faerie uses forests and other sylvan settings in much the same manner). Note the two entries for Gallad's Garden and the Gate of Perdition in the Wilderness guide in The North:quote:
It's a place of warmth, comfort, sunshine, and days of blue, cloudless skies. Creatures once thought extinct roam in vast numbers. <snip> Darnell the Unfearing thinks Shard, and others who have reportedly seen Gallad's Garden, passed through a gate of some kind that leads to a secluded vale in Elysium. But Darnell's theory does not explain that folk living in the Dessarin plains believe Gallad's Garden is designed to hold lost souls whose fate has yet to be determined. Many fear continued searches for the garden are angering the gods. <snip> When he recovered from the fever of his wounds, he claimed he fought the god of the remorhaz.
Also note the isle of Lurath (pg. 62, Pirates of the Fallen Stars):quote:
The primitive world they are now in is ruled not by men or elves, but by dragons.
That enclosed-valley (in a caldera) supposedly leads to a pre-historic time, way back in Toril's past.
Now, if Abeir is a duplicate of that original, pristine proto-world (Abeir-Toril), then it stands to reason that rather then be time-gates (as all of these appear to be, amongst others), they are 'holes' between the worlds; places where The Weave (or whatever keeps them apart) has 'broken down'.
And, once again, all conjecture. Like I said, I am WELL AWARE that none of this lore was originally written with any of this in mind.
Or was it.......?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Dec 2010 23:36:09 |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 00:26:50
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Ack! A rather large post got eaten by a seizure of my ail-ridden PC.
I'll reiterate the gist of it...
System for Runic Magic on Abeir
MT's notion that runequests runic magic system could work for the dominant magic system on Abeir got me thinking along the lines that are drawn out in that (excellent) RPG system.
Basicly runic magic can be devided into simple and quick battle magic (4e's at will spells or 3.5's first and second level spells), divine magic (sponsored magics related to perseverance), sorcery (4e encounter and daily's or 3.5's metamagic spellcasting or "greater" versions of lesser spells) and spirit magic (4e's primal powersource or 3.5's summoning and calling spells). All of the above are powered by runes that need to be carried and carved into weapons, tablets, armor or talismans to function as 4e's implements (3.5's foci).
System and conjecture of Pluma magic on Abeir
Pluma magic can be hinged on the same system, but would largely use components instead of implements. The feathers of birds of increasing rarity (pluma) would then be used to create magic that would prove useful to jungle societies. They'd favor spells that assault the senses, create poisons or antidotes, summon aerial guardians or created illusions.
The strong bird and feather theme in this magic could possibly be tied to the Aearee or Avian races, whose early demise might have been because Scaley races depended first on wielding Pluma magic. Perhaps the Sarruhk or Saurials thaught early human populations some of their magic in the hopes of gaining allies against the dragons, and learned them to cannibalize avians for use of Pluma magic.
Feather based magic could also be the first magic that the Aearee used themselves, where the use of their own feathers and their knowledge of them granted them far greater insight into its strengths for magic use. They probably had high magic like expertise in it, but eventually passed some of their secrets to early humans, who quickly took to dealing with the natural birds of Abeir for their source of (lesser) pluma.
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My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8043 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 02:34:44
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FOR7 Giantcraft describes a fairly detailed system of Jotunbrud rune magic.
"After the disastrous outcome of the war between the dragons and the Jotunbrud, Annam went off in search of a special gift to bestow upon his sons and bolster their might. His epic quest ended almost a thousand years later in ... the plane of Mechanus. There, [he] won the secret of rune magic by defeating a high modron ...
The first runecasters were Annam's sons Nicias (the cloud giant) and Vilmos (the storm giant). Over the course of the next several hundred years, these two masters revealed the secret of the runes to many apprentices, who in turn passed the secret down to the generations to come.
Runecasting is related, though not identical, to the wizardry that is commonly practiced across Faerûn. Indeed, rune magic enjoys some powerful advantages over its more common cousin ..."
HR1 Viking Campaign Sourcebook and (I think) HR3 Celts Campaign Sourcebook also contain rune magic systems, though I'm unsure if they're at all applicable in canon Realms. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 30 Dec 2010 02:36:43 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 04:53:44
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Ed also (briefly) detailed aspects of the system his Dwarves used in Dwarves Deep.
After looking at the preview guides again yesterday, I realized I was dead-on about my theories concerning a connection between the ancient Giants and Dwarves - their Rune Magic (which is also somewhat detailed in the Twilight Giants series) IS the same magic. The Dwarves actually stole Rune Magic from the Giants. Apparently Stone giants (according to the novels) are the keepers of giant history, and they have their own system of writing (I will look that up, if anyone cares - it began with a 'b' IIRC).
I don't know if I would want the standard Elves and dwarves in Abeir. For the elves, if any, as I have stated I would want a bronze-age (fey-like beings shouldn't be using iron anyway) culture. perhaps even have them be more warlike and not so 'nicey-nice' (since we all know that FR elves aren't really as nice as they let-on, assume the Abeir variety just haven't had as much experience in duplicity). Perhaps even an Aerenal (Eberron's undying) like Elf, although I'm not saying to copy Eberron, but I like their darker, more primal feel (for Abeir). Now that I think about it, we could borrow heavily from Eberron for our model (the whole giant/Dragon schism).
I was also thinking both Athas and Aebrynis. Not only do both begin with an 'A' (I know... thats 'reaching'), but Athas actually makes a great fit - we could stick it anywhere. The name itself could just be regional variant of 'Abeir' (which could have changed on that world centuries past - how do we even know that THEY called it Abeir?), or it could just be the name of that part of the planet (the continent Athas on the planet Abeir). Climatically and thematically its a real good fit, though.
'Aebrynis' is even closer grammatically, but I'm not sure how the lore would fit - some of it seems highly conducive to the 4e setting (considering Rich Baker was one of the folks in charge of both, it makes some sense there was a bit of 'trickle down' from past ideas that were shelved). The 'BBG' approach to D&D that used in that setting fits with the dragon-ruled kingdoms, so its entirely possible that the continent of Cerilia is the 'human homeland' on Abeir.
Once again, obviously this is not 'the way it was meant to be' - I'm just looking for possible ways to flesh-out what little we know of the place. One of the themes here seems to be 'humans and others under the thumb of powerful overlords', and the stuff from both Dark Sun and Birthright fit that theme. Birthright also had a very different magic system, from what little I know of it (which really isn't much - I should really dig further). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 30 Dec 2010 08:12:09 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8043 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 05:32:53
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| Why not just simplify the paperwork and just call it Abeirron? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 08:11:03
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| Nooooo... Aebrryonas. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 19:21:41
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I like this idea a lot (especially that the Saurials were from there). Also makes you wonder like with the tv series fringe.... did those few saurials crossing into Toril cause some crack which started the wheels of the spellplague rolling?
Throw in that Mulhorand and Unther have gone over and their "slavery driven" society (granted they were nicer to their slaves, but they were still slavers).... could be interesting to see if they start gathering slaves who aren't humans.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
so, lets discuss. What do we know about it?
Presumably, it was 'a world without gods'. It also had a silver sky, although that may have only been Returned Abeir (which would be odd).
Here's my take - it is what Toril looked like before the fall of the creator races. It is a more primal version of the Realms, and Draconic entities have taken the place of gods for most of the populace.
I also have a theory that the two worlds weren't as separate as folks once thought - we have several canon examples of portals leading to dinosaur-filled regions. To take this a step-further, I think the world Elminster briefly traveled to - the Saurial 'homeworld' - was actually Abeir! Apparently, it was 'ruled' by huge dragon-like creatures (like feathered dragons). More on this below.
Another idea - back when we (briefly) worked on Maztica on the WotC boards, we had translated the Maztican pantheon into the Draconic one (and the fit was amazingly good). Yesterday, thanks to another thread, I happen to read through parts of RoF, and discovered that the Mazticans used the Draconic alphabet! Coincidence? I think not. I don't think Maztica was 'sucked into' Abeir - I think it just 'went home'!
Thats right - my new theory is that Maztica wasn't supposed to be in the Realms - it was a piece of Abeir that was transposed long ago. That places some of its lore ('The Ancients', Mica, etc) in a whole new light. It also makes absolute sense, in terms of their mythology - Maztica (their Earthmother) left them long ago.
Also, I have come across several plot-hooks regarding 'ancient, strange elves' (amongst other 'lost folk') appearing in different parts of Toril. Now, these were probably written with the idea that they were Elves that had fallen through a time-portal, but what if they were from a different world? What if that world was Abeir? What if the Road of Stars and Shadows had a few connections to Abeir?
In Ravenloft, there is a group of native-American like people called the Abber Nomads, who are the only people capable of living within the ever-changing landscape of the Nightmare Lands. What if that is a misspelling of their real name? What if they are Abeir Nomads? What if their penchant for 'changing geography' stems from them having lived in a region that was once covered in earthmotes? (similar to the folk in Secret of the Sixth Magic). They could be used to that because they had something similar going-on back on Abeir.
So now I'm getting this picture in my head of a very primitive world, where iron isn't in great use by most cultures (bronze age at best), covered with jungles and wind-swept 'badlands' riddled with earthmotes. Like on Athas, Arcane magic is hard to come by, as is divine magic (their are no deities - only primordials). You may have several cultures that are psionic in nature, and others may have started worshiping 'dragons', just as in Dark Sun (which is actually Abeir canon that they did so). If it worked like in DS, then the dragons would have been going through their own transcendence into 'powers', and able to grant followers spells. A world where dragons have taken the place of gods!
As I have said above, I am getting back to the Saurials: I have decided, due to some odd Malatra lore, that Saurials are NOT non-native to Toril. The exact same four sub-species exist in Malatra (in the Living Jungle), and always have!
My theory on this: Saurials are four other branches of the Sarrukh race. As the Sauroid (that term is canon) creator Race rose to prominence, several distinctive groups emerged. The Sarrukh were probably the ruling class, and also its archmagi (similar to the Netherease). Eventually the sarrukh's politics no longer meshed-well with the other sauroids, and a war of extermination began, which drove many of the non-Sarrukh into hiding (the Saurials). The group in malatra is just one such group of hidden survivors.
And the rest went to to Abeir when the world was split. Just one more thing Ao wanted to separate. Whereas the Sarrukh would all but die-off over the next few millenia, the Saurials thrived in their new world.
So watcha think? I just turned Abeir into 'the Savage Land' - a mostly verdant, primeval world, with dinosaurs and dragon-kings.
Discuss.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 19:48:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Was the world the Orcgate opened onto ever mentioned (by name)? Not that I'm really 'feeling' Orcs for Abeir. I get a whole, different (almost reptilian) vibe from it. As for the sarrukh - they died (except the few survivors we know of). My point was that the existence of the Malatran Saurial negates the fact they are non-native, so I was really thinking those four have a nation somewhere on Abeir. The Sarrukh would have been a fifth type of Saurial, and there were probably others (I believe the novels featuring them did mention that there were other types 'back home'). The surviving Sarrukh probably think all the (other) Saurials are dead, and would probably be surprised to find out they are not (and angry that they did so much better then the Sarrukh themselves).
If the planet had a continuous light and heat-source, and if we factor-in little climactic change (such a world would be without seasons), then my interpretation of a hot and sticky jungle world, with pockets of 'blasted badlands' (earthmotes floating about in dangerous numbers), with cooler (temperate) regions only lying along the coasts, makes perfect sense. Perhaps the waters of Abeir are very chilly, to off-set the constant light and heat form the sky; since Primordial (Elemental) powers are involved, controling the climate in such a heavy-handed fashion sounds about right.
In fact, the war between the Giants and the Dragons may still be going on there (they never had Uluitu or any of that). Or conversely, the Giants may have enslaved the Dragons at one time, and the dragons revolted, and now become the tyrants themselves (so that Giants are very rare, and only live in remote regions).
We could also say that the Shalaran homeland was on Abeir (and I'm aware of the GHotR entry that says otherwise, but I find that to be a really weird 'opportunity missed').
I agree on not linking the world of the orcgate with Abeir. I more like the idea that Thayd and his Theurgist Adepts were researching old Imaskari lore and they simply found the dialing directory to some other crystal spheres, one of which was an Orc world.
I do like the idea too that the Giants and the Dragons are still "at war" per se. Basically, for me, I'd see Abeir as a world where humanity and the smaller races are NOT in power. Maybe they don't even build towns per se, because wandering brontosaurus' tend to trample them.
To take it a little further, maybe the Giants are actually serving some of the elemental type races. For instance, maybe Efreeti have fire giants serving them. Djinn might be allied with kingdoms of cloud and storm giants, all of whom live on earthmotes. Dao and Stone, Hill, and ogres might have some other kingdom, in which they have those dwarves enslaved still. Meanwhile, the frost giants have tried to make it on their own, but they're in a constant war with the white dragons (or maybe in a twist, maybe the frost giants and white dragons have formed their own kingdom working in concert and live by raiding other societies like vikings). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 22:22:17
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I've been thinking about this conceptual world of Abeir on the way home. This might make for an interesting addition.
Maybe there were 3 cloud giant brothers, and they (along with their whole clan) were charged with protecting "something" from the dragons (what it is doesn't really matter right now). Dragons descended upon the clan on their earthmote floating in the sky, and they killed one of the brothers in their holiest of holy places and took the "something". This cloud giant brother then returned as a ghost sworn to recover that which was stolen and kill the dragons responsible. His brothers took oath that they would see their brother put to his final rest. These 3 giants left their home and worked for decades to try to exact vengeance, and one of the two living (a cloud giant mage) began to worry that he wouldn't live long enough to fulfill his oath to his brother and embraced lichdom. Unwilling to see his other brother die while he still lived, he sought out a vampire and forced him to turn his brother then slew the vampire.
These 3 cloud giants then returned home, only to find the remainder of their clan slaughtered. Using deathly magics, they reanimated their kin, but not as simple skeletons. They used "ancient lore" to instill within them some of their previous intelligence (i.e. they weren't simple automatons, but they weren't exactly the brightest of undead either). They also used powerful magic to gain control over their earthmote.
Soon they descended upon the village that one Dragonlord had gathered around himself. The humans of this village hated the dragon, and the giants turned them to mount a resistance against the dragon and his progeny. The giants also "emptied" the local graveyards creating ghostly undead to lead their assault. The humans recognized some of these undead beings as their great ancestral leaders and proudly worked with the giants to get their vengeance upon the dragons. The dragons were slaughtered and the humans were rewarded with the flesh of their enemies. This begins a tenuous alliance that would be twisted over the generations to its present day form.
In present day, the humans have descended to a level of semi-nomadic barbarism. They move with the giant's on their earthmote, but they actually live in a portable village below it. They typically stay in one place for a few years before moving on, but not long enough to warrant many permanent constructions. The humans have no great skill in metallurgy and typically use stone, bone, wood, and leather in much of their construction. They have also descended to a form of cannibalism, believing that in consuming their enemy they gain the enemies strength. They practice what they refer to as "Blood, Bone, and Spirit" magic, having been taught some ways of magic from their cloud giant benefactors. They have come to revere the giant brothers as almost godlike entities who represent these 3 types of magic (the vampire brother representing blood magic, the lich brother representing bone magic, and the ghost brother representing spirit magic). It is a common practice for these humans to sacrifice their captives (think Aztec ritual sacrifice) in thanks to the giants.
Bone magic is the most common. It is used to make grafts that improve the melee ability of these wild humans, and many of these humans have dinosaur claws, antlers, horns, teeth, etc.... grafted in place to make them more of a threath in combat. Some have even grafted things like the wings of a pteranodon onto their bodies, enabling them to fly maybe. Its also used to reanimate the dead, and its not uncommon for the humans to be seen using undead dinosaurs for various purposes (a stegosaurus pulling a bone plow, or a guard patrol on the village edge riding undead velociraptors). In addition, much of the work of the village is performed by the skeletons of their former captives. Note, it is considered sacreligious to raise one of their own as a skeleton, for such is their ancestor worship that they believe their own dead bodies must return to the earth to free their spirit. They believe that by turning their prey into animated undead, they "enslave" their enemies "spirit" so that he cannot return as an evil ghost to wreak vengeance upon them.
Blood magic is used to enhance the human's ability to fight. They learn to make draughts (potions) that give various abilities and/or which improve their physical fighting skills. Blood draughts that bring on a fury that improves strength, stamina, agility are all common, as are those that give the ability regenerate wounds, generate poisons which can be transmitted by bite, or give some special ability possessed by the blood of the being used (breath weapon, etc...).
Spirit magic deals with working with the dead. This deals with spells which gather information from one's ancestors. It deals with spells which can give the caster the form of a ghost. It deals with spells which can draw upon another's life force and use it to heal another. Most importantly, Spirit magic is used to turn their own dead into incorporeal undead after they've been killed. These undead can "fly" to the earthmote where the giants live, and its seen by these humans as a wonderful gift after they're dead that they can be with "the gods on high".
Obviously, the above is a bit quickly thrown together, but I think it fits this world you're talking about. You've got this twisted group of humans with stone weapons and bony grafts coming off their bodies riding around on undead dinosaurs, horses, unicorns, manticores, etc.... that they've run across. They ride in on a village, slaughter wildly, take captives back to their rudimentary temple, sacrifice them on their altar. Meanwhile, they're protected by a tribe of powerful undead cloud giants who view the humans as efficient tools to help them when they need them (and serve as a buffer while they plot).
So, does this fit in with your version of Abeir? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 22:32:37
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| Oh, for the previous, give the earthmote a suitably giant sounding name "Valhajarliksen" or whatever... nothing comes to mind.... but then have everyone else uses a simple nickname for the place that its simply "The deathmote"... and its always to be spoken of in whisper and with fear lest you draw its attention to your village. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8043 Posts |
Posted - 30 Dec 2010 : 23:00:48
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quote:
sleyvas
Oh, for the previous, give the earthmote a suitably giant sounding name "Valhajarliksen" or whatever... nothing comes to mind....
Jötunheimr, of course. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 15:43:14
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I like the idea of the 'deathmote' alot. Especially the blood, bone and spirit magic that those savage nomads could be using. Very low subsistance level human tribes living amongst Abeiran giants and dragons would be easily awed, and subsequently pressured into servitude.
Genasi and dragonborn culture could also rub off on to any abeiran human tribes that border the kingdoms of elemental and dragon based lands. I can see some Genasi teaching a select few humans their architecture, weapons technology, agriculture and swordmage and sorcery styled magic, in order to form them into competant buffers against actual giant and dragon kingdoms.
Geology and ecology of Abeir
Concerning the elemental based geology of Abeir, I thought including unstable regions would fit the landscape and the wiles of powerful elemental beings such as the Primordial Lords are. Most of the continents are stable, seemingly in a stasis for eons, as Primordial Lords are content or indefferent towards those parts. But those areas that hold a special interest for Primordial Lords -because of some form of primordial geopolitics- form the experimental grounds for elemental lords, and are highly contested. The physical shape of the landscape in those areas are probably as morphic to Primordials as some of the homeplanes or domains of Fearunian gods are.
I can even imagine Abeir's underworld having several layers, like and onion, that somehow shift and reallign themselves over time during or bacause of certain Primordial hieracrhic debates/battles. The upper two or three layers are conductive for life, so adventurers can descend into them and encounter an environment ala the Underdark, but with a Hollow World like twist. The further one descends these layers to more pure the elemental properties of the environment becomes. At the inner core the biggest Primordials dwell in primarily energy based sanctums, and influence the outer layers through sending mountains of energy upwards. The most powerful of these energy spikes can reach the surface of Abeir, creating powerful elemental changes in the landscape. Some Primordials would combine their elemental mountains in mutual beneficial alliances, but some use them to battle eachother with highly destructive results.
Such a morphic habitat is not very conductive for small lifeforms, or those that aren't highly mobile of adaptable. I would populate most of Abeir with creatures that ARE able to thrive in the playground of Primordials. First that come to mind are elemental birds of many kinds such as phoenixes, airbased manta, bird shaped elementals (fire-birds; water-birds; rocky birds) and giant owls, giant eagles, rocs and such. Landbased critters are in much better shape of they are large or can burrow, so here mega-fauna (such as giant moose, deer and mammoths), dinosaurs, and all sorts of worms, wyrms and burrowing humanoids might be common. Mechanical lifeforms such as Warforged, Modron or Inevitables could very well be more suited to the extremes of Abeir, as they could readily adapt their forms to the current environmental challenge their habitat poses. Perhaps some organic creatures even adapted to this by becoming half-mechanical (half-warforged?) themselves instead of becoming half-elemental (like the genasi did). |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8043 Posts |
Posted - 31 Dec 2010 : 16:02:34
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| An idea (from Earthdawn, non-D&D) is that traces of pure elemental matter could be found in the world, usually clustered near ultra-rich gem/metal lodes, oceanic deeps, volcanic cores, mountain tops, etc. These elemental bits are actually alloyed into metals to make weapons that are lighter, armor sturdier, coinage much more valuable - they're also important components in various magics and self-replenishing in nature (given enough time) but incredibly difficult/dangerous to obtain. Just an idea that seems like it might relate to primordials and primitive magics. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2011 : 16:36:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Arik
quote:
sleyvas
Oh, for the previous, give the earthmote a suitably giant sounding name "Valhajarliksen" or whatever... nothing comes to mind....
Jötunheimr, of course.
Too classic of a ripoff... but I do like the Jotun part... Jotunharl? Anyway, main thing is to have the players have to actually use their research to find out the real name, because the others they've come in contact with just know it as "the deathmote" (cue spooky music)... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
8043 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jan 2011 : 18:49:02
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Jötunheimr, or Jotunheim, is a ripoff from Norse mythology.
Why the preoccupation with naming things? Things are not defined by names, things don't need any names, things don't need only one name. Deathmote is as good a name as any other. |
[/Ayrik] |
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All About Abeir
