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Mouse
Acolyte
USA
28 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 00:46:26
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So, we all know the Bard Class sucks right?
That's the stereotype.
Maybe now they're better or worse or however in 4th Ed, but when it comes right down to it, the Bard Class has always been kind of weird.
Now, this is NOT a threat about improving the Bard or how it's better or worse then it has been now.
This is a thread about how when Bards sucked, Bard fans played them ANYWAY.
Bard is, and always will be my favorite class, god only knows why.
Who else here loves Bard, rain or shine, suck on non-suck?
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"Barbarians are more polite then civilized men, for civilized men know they may be rude to another without having their skulls cleaved open as a general thing."
-Conan |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 01:05:47
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1st Edition Bard ruled well, if they made it.
Over the edition changes they did get made weaker. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Kajehase
Great Reader
Sweden
2104 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 01:26:13
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| This? Again? |
There is a rumour going around that I have found god. I think is unlikely because I have enough difficulty finding my keys, and there is empirical evidence that they exist.
Terry Pratchett |
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Sill Alias
Senior Scribe
Kazakhstan
588 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 04:48:53
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Excuse me. Bards do not suck. In beginning they lack many things. But as they grow, they become capable of taking place of many classes...
Wait. You almost got me. You wanted me to rant about info everyone knows here, didn't you? Not gonna work. |
You can hear many tales from many mouths. The most difficult is to know which of them are not lies. - Sill Alias
"May your harp be unstrung, your dreams die and all your songs be unsung." - curse of the harper, The Code of the Harpers 2 ed.
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Diffan
Great Reader
USA
4460 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 04:58:08
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It's been my opinion that the bard class has been on the low end of class design by dividing up it's features to be a Jack of All Trades, Master of None. They're pretty good at a lot of things, but have no focus and therefore don't work at peak performace (at the table) when used in a 4-person party.
That being said, they make GREAT 5th-wheels with the ability to semi-heal, use magic items like a Rogue, get into the combative mix, and their versatility cannot be matched. This is the main reason why they're the best class to play if your in a lite-combative campaign with heavy role-play elements. They practically shine as the party's face and work well with others.
Mechanics side, their spells aren't superior for combat unless your really good at making spells work "outside the box".
I've never had the inclination to play a bard for fear of the DM requiring me to actually perform some song, dance, or sing when I use my Bardic Performance ability. Just not happening.
I do, however, LOVE the bard in 4E as he's been beefed up a lot for the rigiors of the heavy-combat system. Not only do they make pretty decent healers, they're great at supporting the party through buffs(maybe not as well as a Warlord but who is, right?) and they can work great in combat as well, espically the Valorous bard. The fact that they can take multiple Multi-class feats is just astonishing and even better if your Bard is a Half-Elf. With the ability to pilfer from other Charisma-based classes they can easily Off-Tank with Paladin powers, secondary striker with Sorcerer powers, and even a few Controller powers with powers of the new Binder class from Heroes of Shadow. Still, the most versatile class of any system by far. |
Diffan's NPG Generator: FR NPC Generator |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 08:01:34
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excuse me, sir, I ADORE the 3rd and 3.5th edition Bard Class!!
allow me to present a few exampls of EXCELENT Bard Character Builds.
1.) the Synergist.
primary Attributes are Charisma and Intelligence. secondary is Dexterity.
main Skills are Perform (Dance) and Perform (Sing), Balance, Tumble, Use Magic Device, Use Rope, Bluff, Sense Motive and Sleight of Hand.
fighting-style involves a Whip and Daggers (for throwing), or a Spiked Chain, with Improved Trip, Improved Disarm, and Precise Shot. Dodge, Mobility, and Spring Attack are also important, as is Combat Expertise.
this Bard focuses on Buff and Healing spells to provide the party as much support as possible.
2.) the Sabateur.
primary attributes are Cha and Dexterity. secondary is Intelligence.
main skills are Perform (any), Bluff, Sleight of Hand, Intimidate, Use Magic Device,and Use Rope.
combat style is Whip or Spiked Chain, with Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, Improved Trip and Improved Disarm.
this Bard uses mostly disruption spells, to offset enemy advantages, level the playing field, and provide support through distraction.
3.) the Silver-Tongued Fox.
primary attributes are Charisma and Intelligence. secondary is Wisdom.
main skills are Perform (any), Diplomacy, Bluff, Sense Motive, Gather Information, Knowledge (Nobility), Knowledge (Local), and Intimidate. secondary skills could include Spot, Search, and any Craft or Proffession.
combat doesn't matter, but he should focus on Dodge, Mobility, Combat Expertise, and Sprng Attack. Run is also not a bad idea.
spell focus is on Divinations, Enchantments, and Illusions.
4.) the Lorist.
primary attributes are Intelligence and Charisma.
main skills include Knowledge (History), Knowledge (any others), Perform (Any), Gather Information, Search, Decypher Script, Speak Language, and any Prffession.
combat again doesn't matter. focus on feats that improve his skills and his knowledge base, and don't hesitate to pick up Jack-of-All-Trades and Versatile Performer.
spells focus on helping him uncover knowledge, both in terms of divinations and utilities.
5.) the Utility Guy.
need I even say more? realy, this one pretty much speaks for itself. |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Thelonius
Senior Scribe
Spain
730 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 11:32:46
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| Have to say that I completely agree with Sage's comment here, the bards has never been a class that "sucks", in fact always found them quite fun and rewarding to play them, even more than wizards, you have a caster-healer-suportive class all in one, you can call them the Swiss knife of D&D and also their background, people that plays music around collecting wisdom, or playing around or telling stories, make them the most interesting class in my humble opinion. Also some of the best novels characters are bards, Olie,Danilo, Halisstra,... |
"If you are to truly understand, then you will need the contrast, not adherence to a single ideal." - Kreia
"I THINK I JUST HAD ANOTHER NEAR-RINCEWIND EXPERIENCE"- Discworld's Death frustrated after Rincewind scapes his grasp... again.
"I am death, come for thee" - Nimbul, from Baldur's Gate I just before being badly spanked
Sapientia sola libertas est |
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Bladewind
Master of Realmslore
Netherlands
1280 Posts |
Posted - 27 Apr 2011 : 12:20:05
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For certain races bards make good multiclass characters. Elven bards make excellent arcane archers (the morale bonus to damage from their inspire abiities helps alot here) and are a well enough entry into bladesinger. Dwarven bards (yeah, you read that right) are greatly respected in their own communities and make decent tanks as they can still use their favored hammer or axe and shield fighting style. Gnomes are great tricksy bards, especially strong with a heavy illusion spell selection.
Some PrC's greatly boost a bards focus. The focluran lyricist (Complete Adventurer) greatly boosts a bards melee presence in the late game. The Seekers of the Sublime Chord (Complete Arcane) are great for getting some extra spellcasting oomph while the Divine Oracle (Complete Divine) does the same but in a specialized divination based way. I believe it was the Exemplar (Complete Adventurer) that makes a bard very good at a select few skills.
Also don't forget the bards single most broken ability, a high Diplomacy rating with a perverse charisma. Fast talking your enemies (reducing the full minute into a full round action of talking is not that punishing for a dedicated diplomancer-bard) into joining your party is the bane of many a DM in 3rd edition.  |
My campaign sketches
Druidic Groves
Creature Feature: Giant Spiders |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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sfdragon
Great Reader
2285 Posts |
Posted - 28 Apr 2011 : 05:55:08
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exuse me sir... fox at twilight is the epitome of shadowdancers.... oh wait you said bard...
YES I wrote shadowdancer on purpose. sue me.
anyway, I like bards, they make great talkers, back up healers and over all distractions.
Just ask D. Thann if you dont believe me.
besides without a bard who is going to sing at the aprty's funeral? |
why is being a wizard like being a drow? both are likely to find a dagger in the back from a rival or one looking to further his own goals, fame and power
My FR fan fiction
Magister's GAmbit
http://steelfiredragon.deviantart.com/gallery/33539234 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 06:39:38
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mummers aren't as fun or great as a Bard, especially one wo was there to know all the details firsthand, and lie about them to make them more exciting. XD
... or scratch failures from th erecord and anals of history, or to alternatively emphasize them as a cruel prank to mar the reputation of his former team mate forever.
XD ah, Bards... |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 07:31:29
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quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight
... or scratch failures from th erecord and anals of history, or to alternatively emphasize them as a cruel prank to mar the reputation of his former team mate forever.
-Exactly. This is why Bards are the most powerful... |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 08:35:42
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quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight
mummers aren't as fun or great as a Bard, especially one wo was there to know all the details firsthand, and lie about them to make them more exciting. XD
Unless they're the "Scarlet Mummers", a particular and personal favourite of mine.  |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2011 : 09:15:28
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by ChieftainTwilight
mummers aren't as fun or great as a Bard, especially one wo was there to know all the details firsthand, and lie about them to make them more exciting. XD
Unless they're the "Scarlet Mummers", a particular and personal favourite of mine.
>.> ... hush, you. they don't exist, just a faerie-tale to scare the kids. |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 03:00:30
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| I still say Bards are better. |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 03:11:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Actually, those were the very mummers I was thinking of! Trust Sage to read my mind..... (I think I must have some Sage Time stuck to the bottom of my shoes....)
That's alright. I've a SageSpatula here to help clean it off. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 30 Apr 2011 03:12:33 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 03:44:31
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| a little off-topic, but my Favourite Class of all time was found in an issue of Dragon... it's the Tainted, a Prestige Class. >w< |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 04:24:51
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I like the Dirgesingers from Dragon Magazine.
You mean the Dirgist character kit from DRAGON #252?
No, this was from issue #309 or #311, I think. (I've got #310 at hand, and it had all the warrior-type classes, the one I'm thinking of had all the spellcasting classes in it- both issues had various new rules and PrC's for their respective class-types for 3.5 rules.) IIRCit was called Dirgesinger, although it might be an updated version of the one you mentioned.
CT- I remember that one now- I think there was an opposite class in the same issue for celestial-type soul-share. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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ChieftainTwilight
Learned Scribe
171 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 04:38:38
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not in the same issue... that issue had a focus on Magic, and included a list of various new Cantrips, alternative Summoning rules/lists, infomation on the High Flagon in Waterdeep (complete with Card Games, food & bevereges, and vacancy), and an article on running large encounters. it also had stats for some of the characters in the WotSQ series (Gromph, Quenthal, Pharaun, and Jegred) including their unique equipment, a Prestige Class for an orginzation in Greyhawk campaign setting, and a list of "Armour" for Spellcasters.
I seem to have misplaced both my issues of Dragon and my issue of Dungeon, and I'm hoping I didn't leave them in ohio last year.... I'm pretty sure I saw them when I got home, but I havn't seen them in months... |
and a heart can only break so many times
and I've been to hell and back so many times
and I've seen folks walk away so many times
but just like anyone else I gotta stand up by myself
and a heart can only break so many times
a heart can only break so many times
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 05:55:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
I like the Dirgesingers from Dragon Magazine.
You mean the Dirgist character kit from DRAGON #252?
No, this was from issue #309 or #311, I think. (I've got #310 at hand, and it had all the warrior-type classes, the one I'm thinking of had all the spellcasting classes in it- both issues had various new rules and PrC's for their respective class-types for 3.5 rules.) IIRCit was called Dirgesinger, although it might be an updated version of the one you mentioned.
Hmmm. The only 3e Dirgesinger class I can recall, is from Libris Mortis: The Book of Undead.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 06:29:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Was that one of the ones based on monster species? There was an article that had PrC's based on illithids, beholders, and even the taarrasque.
-I remember those. They were pretty cool. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 06:39:58
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| Could be the same one? Dunno, Sage, I've not looked through my pdf of that book. The one I saw was in with a "Green Ear" nature type bard (think Orpheus), a wordsmith-type, a stone-speaker or some-such, and a winter-wind sort of bard- all as PrC's. All of them were interesting, and the death-focused one had some cool turn-undead type abilities, as I recall. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2011 : 06:44:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Could be the same one? Dunno, Sage, I've not looked through my pdf of that book. The one I saw was in with a "Green Ear" nature type bard (think Orpheus), a wordsmith-type, a stone-speaker or some-such, and a winter-wind sort of bard- all as PrC's. All of them were interesting, and the death-focused one had some cool turn-undead type abilities, as I recall.
-Issue 311: Battle Howler of Gruumsh / Green Whisperer / Memory Smith / The Mourner / Worldspeaker |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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On Bards
