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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 18:24:44
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That's a good example Xar Zarath, my campaign just had a one-eyed player's wizard transform into a Lich so this help reinforce the 'new perspective' on the world she has gained.
I guess a limb is only maintained in unlife by the necromatic arts rather than replaced so seeking out a new body is probably the first port of call |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 26 Oct 2012 : 21:23:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Most physical human faculties are replaceable by magic. I never heard of a blind, deaf, or limp lich.
Ditto for skeletons. I recall a discussion about that several years ago. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 27 Oct 2012 : 05:39:49
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| I think its the spell that suffuses the corpses with the basic functions it used to have. Speculation on this can only lead to more speculation, I suppose... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 05:31:52
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I don't know if this was asked before...
Are there bard liches? A bard whose love for music is so profound that he can't live/exist without it, and so chooses to embrace undeath just so he can't stop playing and making music? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 08:18:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I don't know if this was asked before...
Are there bard liches? A bard whose love for music is so profound that he can't live/exist without it, and so chooses to embrace undeath just so he can't stop playing and making music?
There are bardic liches on Golarion, as I recall some PATHFINDER material referencing them. And 3e/3.5e Core D&D had some themed PrCs that deal with bards who have entered into undeath/lich-like states.
...
Alystra and I worked on some bardic lich details for the Realms last year, and I've continued tweaking with the results ever since. I'm soon [SageTime pending] to have a write-up for them to present here at Candlekeep. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 07 Nov 2012 : 10:37:12
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| I think a bardic lich would just want to create the ultimate music. A magnum opus which will never see the end until the lich is satisfied or dies trying... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 08 Nov 2012 : 18:02:19
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Interesting. In Hunter X Hunter, there's this piece of music called Demon Sonata that severly affects the body and mind of whoever plays and hears it. It's unknown if it also grants immortality, but it's possible. [Though I wonder how Kororo (the leader of Spider) managed to play it without detrimental effects.] |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 08 Nov 2012 18:02:44 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 01:05:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Interesting. In Hunter X Hunter, there's this piece of music called Demon Sonata that severly affects the body and mind of whoever plays and hears it. It's unknown if it also grants immortality, but it's possible. [Though I wonder how Kororo (the leader of Spider) managed to play it without detrimental effects.]
Are there any details for this Demon Sonata written up anywhere online?
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"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 Nov 2012 : 02:59:16
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Unfortunately, nothing that's substantial, Sage. What's revealed in the series are these: Satan might have composed it himself, to lure musicians and common folk alike, to have them under his sway, or simply just go mad or disfigured (for his amusement, likely). Hearing even just a few lines of it inflicts a variety of pain, disfigurement, and madness. Many died of it, too. It is a complicated piece that only the most talented of Music Hunters could play.
No one is supposed to be immune to it. How Kororo gained such immunity remains a mystery. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 04:36:17
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Apologies to anyone offended for bringing this scroll back from the dead.
Some questions have been piling up for me, and the main thing is clone and lichdom. From what I understand through normal rules, a lich can POA(Polymorph Any Object) himself to a living person permanently. Now he chops off a piece of himself and clones it. With the proper spells a temporal stasis and such, he gets killed...now does he go back into his phylactery or the clone?
Also, does he retains his entire memory even to the point when he got killed or does something else happens? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 16:30:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Apologies to anyone offended for bringing this scroll back from the dead.
Some questions have been piling up for me, and the main thing is clone and lichdom. From what I understand through normal rules, a lich can POA(Polymorph Any Object) himself to a living person permanently. Now he chops off a piece of himself and clones it. With the proper spells a temporal stasis and such, he gets killed...now does he go back into his phylactery or the clone?
Also, does he retains his entire memory even to the point when he got killed or does something else happens?
One thing to note is that the rules can't cover every conceivable notion. My take on this situation would be that I wouldn't let him be able to use the clone spell (which places ties on his spirit, which he's already placed ties upon). Just because he changed his form temporarily using a polymorph doesn't sever this tie which runs deeper than this kind of temporary magic. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that noone should be able to clone themselves while under the effect of a polymorph effect (or if they could, the cloned body would revert to the "true" form after the duration of the polymorph passes). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 17:04:04
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I agree that this falls into that grey area where the DM decides what happens for his games.
As for him retaining his memory: It has the memories of when it was created, IIRC. If he is using Manshoon's 'updatable' version then the clone would have the memories up until the last update.
Which makes me think that Manshoon should create (and carry) a small device that stores his memories (a US-me drive!), and that a clone could retrieve after his death (to insure 100% upgradability). 
But as for your question, I am going to have to say just plain no to a clone even working. He could create one when he was alive, but not after he is dead, simply because a major component is missing - his soul. A Lich isn't 'wearing' his soul, its in the phylactory (or, at least, attached to it by a 'magic rubberband'). The soul is therefor unavailable for the magic of the clone spell. I would rule that he could create a copy-body in stasis, nothing more (perhaps good to feed to some zombies). Another use might be to keep one of these around for adventurers to find (if folks didn't know he was a lich, just a powerful Mage). It would be a great cover for his 'escape' ("there is an explosion and afterwards you find the wizard's body..."). The lich can actually destroy himself and 'fake' his own death (then come back later when he regenerates, when the adventurers have left).
Its a good thing Liches don't need to eat like zombies do. I just got this gross picture in my head of a mage creating many clones, and then turning into a lich. Now he can just 'go to the freezer' for a snack... YUCK!) |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2013 14:03:12 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 17:13:42
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| The clone spell descriptions explicitly state the target (caster) must be alive. Dead flesh simply won't grow and heal. |
[/Ayrik] |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jan 2013 : 21:53:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
The clone spell descriptions explicitly state the target (caster) must be alive. Dead flesh simply won't grow and heal.
Where he's going with it is that Polymorph any object can make an undead creature into another creature type temporarily. Hell, you can turn a pebble into a human and it will temporarily have intelligence. They also explicitly give an example of turning a living creature into undead or a construct in some errata.
the below is from this web site
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040601a
Polymorph Any Object
A general purpose spell, polymorph any object is similar to both polymorph and baleful polymorph. It works on any creature or object, and it can turn the subject into any other creature or object (but not an incorporeal or gaseous creature or object).
A creature turned into another creature with this spell is affected just as if transmuted with a polymorph spell, except that the subject also gains the Intelligence score of the assumed form. The change in Intelligence doesn't affect the subject's skill points.
A creature turned into an object has no Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma scores. It has no senses and cannot perceive its surroundings in any way. It is considered unconscious, just as a petrified creature is. If the subject cracks or breaks, but the broken pieces are joined with the body as the subject returns to flesh, the subject is unharmed (also like a petrified creature). If the subject's body is incomplete when it returns to its normal form, the body is likewise incomplete, with the appropriate disability.
The spell's duration depends on how radical the change between the subject's original form and its assumed form as shown in the spell description. Regardless of the spell's duration, the subject has a strong aura of transmutation magic (see the detect magic spell) while the spell lasts. The effect can be dispelled according to the normal rules for doing so.
Because this spell can allow the subject to assume unliving forms, you can use this spell to turn the subject into a construct or undead creature.
You can use polymorph any object to duplicate the following transmutation effects: baleful polymorph, polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute water to dust, or transmute rock to mud. (Baleful polymorph was added to this list in the Player's Handbook errata file.)
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 10:07:11
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What if the lich created the clone to keep it alive so that when his body was gone and back in his phylactery, the lich could possess it. It would not even need to be his own cloned body, since a lich can possess any corpse or body to come back. After all the srd for clone states that as long as the original is alive, the clone is just soulless inert flesh.
Also, was it just then artistic license when Inthracis awakened in his clone with his recent memories?(from Paul S Kemp Ressurection) |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Edited by - Xar Zarath on 05 Jan 2013 10:08:39 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:02:22
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According to the SRD, the clone should have all the memories of the original.
I guess that makes Manshoon's version kinda pointless (and out-dated).
I am more familiar with the original versions of most spells. If 'clone' works the way it says it does (in 3e), then I don't know why anyone who could do that would even want to be a lich. Instead of being a moldy old corpse, you could just stay young forever. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 14:18:30
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Maybe they dont want to lose a level?
I read up on stasis clone in the 3e or was it 3.5e of Lords of Darkness and it doesnt say that the creator of the clone needs to touch them to update them, so it kind of makes things vague. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 15:06:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
What if the lich created the clone to keep it alive so that when his body was gone and back in his phylactery, the lich could possess it. It would not even need to be his own cloned body, since a lich can possess any corpse or body to come back. After all the srd for clone states that as long as the original is alive, the clone is just soulless inert flesh.
Also, was it just then artistic license when Inthracis awakened in his clone with his recent memories?(from Paul S Kemp Ressurection)
The soul is tied to the phylactery. If the lich dies, he returns to the phylactery. Since his soul is tied to the phylactery, he can't tie it to a clone while its tied to the phylactery. If he's in the phylactery and its destroyed, his soul becomes unbound... however, he can't create a new clone at that time.
Now, I'm not going to throw the idea out entirely, because "magic can do pretty much anything", but I'd specify that any special magic contingency setup where the fallback is to a clone would have to be a special feat (because it effectively bypasses the feat liches are supposed to use to have multiple phylacteries... a living clone simply being a different/special kind of phylactery). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 15:29:47
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A Suel lich doesn't have a phylactory, IIRC. Its called a lich, but its really more like ghost. Tan Chin (Ambuchar Devayam) is (most likely) an FR example of a Suel Lich. Those could probably inhabit their own clone, but because of the level restrictions it would be tricky: They'd have to 'save' a copy of themselves 15 levels lower then their current level, and then they would never be able to level again (if they wanted to keep using their clone).
As for what Xar suggests and Sleyvas argues against: The spell description specifically states "This spell makes an inert duplicate of a creature". Inert does not = 'alive'. A lich can only posses a 'living' person, and the clone is NOT truly 'alive' until it is reanimated. Its a catch-22 situation.
The only way I see this being possible is if the lich got some other soul to reawaken their clone body first, and then they possessed it, but I have no idea how one would do that. A creative use of the Awaken spell, perhaps? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 16:37:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
According to the SRD, the clone should have all the memories of the original.
I guess that makes Manshoon's version kinda pointless (and out-dated).
Why? Manshoon's clones often lie unused for years... Being able to update them with memories and levels is an awesome benefit. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jan 2013 : 17:08:34
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Because, according to the normal version of the spell, they get automatically updated when they revive, right up until the moment of their creators death. The only thing Manshoon's version could possibly due is alleviate the lev/con loss (and thats only if he is very vigilant about keeping them all constantly updated).
This is just another piece of old 2e lore that got obliterated by 3e rules, IMO. If you create a clone each time you level, the Manshoon version becomes practically pointless. Its also been proven that at some point Manshoon has to have lost levels anyway, so its certainly not a better method (because he can easily 'fall behind' in his updating, and older clones would be completely unaware of newer ones, so they wouldn't even know to update them).
In 3e (and 4e, and eventually in 5e), I would adjudicate (as DM) that Manshoon's version removes the level/con penalty from the normal spell, and thats all. Its really the only way to improve it now. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Jan 2013 17:09:50 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 01:58:01
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| Markus, we know Realmslore isn't trumped by changes to rules between editions. Thus, so when 3e and 3.5e came along, doesn't necessarily mean that there wassn't still a stasis clone spell utilised by Manshoon that could work to counter the apparent "outdatedness" of his clones. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
Edited by - The Sage on 06 Jan 2013 02:00:43 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jan 2013 : 04:50:29
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Well I do prefer lore over rules anyday but when the two are so intrisically entwined, it is kind of hard to make out the important differences, since there are so many other rules and lore that could trump or enforce the ones being used in this case.
As for Tan Chin, he is a unique lich like entity since I dont think the bodies he possesses burns out whereas Suel liches do burn out the bodies they use |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12020 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jan 2013 : 20:09:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
According to the SRD, the clone should have all the memories of the original.
I guess that makes Manshoon's version kinda pointless (and out-dated).
I am more familiar with the original versions of most spells. If 'clone' works the way it says it does (in 3e), then I don't know why anyone who could do that would even want to be a lich. Instead of being a moldy old corpse, you could just stay young forever.
Manshoon's still has viability. The standard clone only allows one link in the chain. You can't effectively stack multiple copies of the clone spell. That's where Manshoon's spell is useful
"If multiple stasis clones exist for the same original creature when it is slain, the soul goes into the most recently created stasis clone." |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 Feb 2013 : 15:05:16
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quote:
The following is lifted from page 148 of Prophet of the Dead:
The commander of the Eminence was a divided being like a centaur. His maker has reshaped the top part of him into something very like the skeletal remains of the top half of a human being, arms, hands, and all. The bottom part remained overtly reptilian, but longer and heavier than one would expect of even a naga, the bones still sheathed in muscle and scales with a ridge of jagged spikes along the top.
So it seems like Lod is not a bone naga but more like a quasi-naga lich. Are there any other weird lich-combinations out there? |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2013 : 05:02:40
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Dang it Dennis, I haven't read Prophet of the Dead yet and here you go and put a tantalizing teaser, grrr
But on topic, i think a lich that perhaps grafts metal or other parts onto itself to become more powerful would be weird? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2013 : 12:15:46
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I'm not sure if that's even a spoiler. I mean, we all know what kind of creature Lod is. Richard just made some unique touches to (I suppose) render him some semblance of humanity.
Anyway, I'm thinking of some sort of a "metalich." A creature of both bones and magic-infused metals. Think of an Inquitor (from the Mistborn series) as made mostly of bones. Instead of spikes, the metalich has metal plates specifically placed on his skull, chest, and wrists. Each plate, like the Inquisitor's spikes, grants certain types of power. They function like the magic-imbued tattoos of wizards (like Aoth), only better. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36877 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2013 : 15:37:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'm not sure if that's even a spoiler. I mean, we all know what kind of creature Lod is.
Having only read a couple of 4E novels, I had no idea what Lod was. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2013 : 15:50:32
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I find that the more 'mysteries are unveiled', the less useful the setting becomes to me. {sigh}
IMG, LoD is - or isn't - whatever I say it is, novels be damned. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2013 : 16:58:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
I'm not sure if that's even a spoiler. I mean, we all know what kind of creature Lod is.
Having only read a couple of 4E novels, I had no idea what Lod was.
Well, let's look at the obvious: the cover art! Months ago, on the same day the cover art was released, someone asked Richard if it was Lod--and he said yes. |
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Need to Know: The Lich
