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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12006 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 01:01:10
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| I think being a lich who named himself ~@ , the lich formerly known as Bathemon, would be the kewlest. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 03:15:28
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Eli the Tanner
I have a query that has recently come up in my campaign....Were-lich?
Can a Lycanthropic creature become a Lich? or does death result in a true return to their orginal form (therefore curse ending where Lich begins)?
I can't see anything that would directly suggest not but I'm curious about the Lycanthopy 'curse' and whether it would persist beyond death? I understand Liches are not subject to diseases...but I thought that lycanthropy was more akin to a magical curse than disease. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Eagerly anticipatng scholarly help.
This got me to thinking: what exactly makes a lich's body rotten? If the lich links his spirit to his phylactery shortly after death, then the body shouldn't have much time to experience decay. So is the body then subject to decay from that point forwards, just [like] a normal corpse?
If so--if a lich's physical form is subject to microorganisms biodegrading that form--then it would seem to me that the body should be subject to a lycanthropic infection, as well.
I think the Lich's body is considered more of an organic shell that the Lich augments and puppeteers. I have managed to dreg some knowledge from the fragments of Dr. Ruscheider time studying Lich Necrology out of Van Richten's guide. According to his research, Lich's often used a sustaining ritual every century or so involving a presevered heart to ward its body against the ravages of time. Which might explain how they do not simply crumble to dust after so long.
Along with other accounts, it seems that decay (through lack of bodily functions and organic processes maintaining the body) is offset only by the magic animating and sustaining the lich. Without bodily process' disease won't be a problem (there are no living cells to infect) and even then the magic animating the body is not hindered by such effect...akin to a construct I guess.
I'd love Ed write a day in the life of Szass Tam as he goes about the very meticulous rituals and obssessive process' of maintaing his form. I imagine there is a mix of a sculptor's eye and the assidiousness of an avid gardener involved in such rigor.
quote:
Originally posted by Aulduron
It's your world. If you want lycanthropic liches to be possible, then they're possible.
I'm aware of the DM fiat...just wondering if there was a example in the lore that might help understanding the nuances of the situation. A healthy discussion of the philosophical/arcane possibilities of such a thing occuring would be nice....rather than 'do what you want mate'.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 04:25:53
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| I, personally, would not allow for a lycanthropic lich. I think lycanthropes should be living creatures, and that the necromantic energies that power the undead corpse are not compatible with the primal energies that are lycanthropy. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Aulduron
Learned Scribe
USA
343 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 05:15:27
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| I've never heard of one, and I wouldn't be inclined to include one in a campaign of mine. |
"Those with talent become wizards, Those without talent spend their lives praying for it"
-Procopio Septus |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 06:05:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Eli the Tanner
I think the Lich's body is considered more of an organic shell that the Lich augments and puppeteers.
Just because the lich is emotionally detached from this organic shell does not mean that it ceases to be biological/zoological tissue. I don't see your rationale.
quote:
According to his research, Lich's often used a sustaining ritual every century or so involving a presevered heart to ward its body against the ravages of time. Which might explain how they do not simply crumble to dust after so long.
This strengthens the corpse, but it does not transform the corpse into a non-corpse.
The lorebooks clearly tell us that lich bodies still rot. Yes, with magical enhancements, their rotting bodies can still remain viable shells for centuries, or maybe even millenia. But they still decay, decompose, rot, etc.
So clearly they are susceptible to infection and cellular degradation.
quote:
Along with other accounts, it seems that decay (through lack of bodily functions and organic processes maintaining the body) is offset only by the magic animating and sustaining the lich. Without bodily process' disease won't be a problem (there are no living cells to infect) and even then the magic animating the body is not hindered by such effect...akin to a construct I guess.
I completely disagree. As I said, just because liches have magical fortifications does not change the fact that the underlying structure is still human tissue, and that is subject to disease and decay. Liches infuse their spirits within bodies soon after death, which means that while the body is dead on a macro level, it is still very much alive on a micro one. That is probably the reason why rot can successfully set in, giving liches their familiar, gruesome visages.
Check out the wiki article on <"Meat Spoilage">. Diseases can attack flesh while the animal is still alive (endogenous infection), and even after the animal has died (exogenous infection). It is thought that most food poisoning is actually caused by the latter, through improper handling after slaughter. The diseases set in after death, and they often persist.
It might be possible that the rotting process could be stopped at some point, rendering the skeleton almost like petrified tissue, or stone. At that point, there may be no further opportunity for disease to begin or continue.
But before that, I'd say "fair game".
OTOH, a lycanthrope might have an awfully hard time sinking his teeth into a lich guarded by magical wards, or even gettting close enough to try. 
[For some strange reason, my keyboard's "up" directional key is not working as I post this. It works in other windows--just not here on the 'Keep. The other three directional keys are working here. Maybe some lich doesn't like us dabbling in his secrets . . . He probably resents being compared to hamburger meat!  ] |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Eli the Tanner
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
149 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 07:45:35
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Eli the Tanner
I think the Lich's body is considered more of an organic shell that the Lich augments and puppeteers.
Just because the lich is emotionally detached from this organic shell does not mean that it ceases to be biological/zoological tissue. I don't see your rationale.
I think you are misapprehending me, I am not disagreeing with you regarding the corpse-like nature of the Lich.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
According to his research, Lich's often used a sustaining ritual every century or so involving a presevered heart to ward its body against the ravages of time. Which might explain how they do not simply crumble to dust after so long.
This strengthens the corpse, but it does not transform the corpse into a non-corpse.
The lorebooks clearly tell us that lich bodies still rot. Yes, with magical enhancements, their rotting bodies can still remain viable shells for centuries, or maybe even millenia. But they still decay, decompose, rot, etc.
So clearly they are susceptible to infection and cellular degradation.
I concur. I'm not sure where you are finding diagreement between our points.
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Along with other accounts, it seems that decay (through lack of bodily functions and organic processes maintaining the body) is offset only by the magic animating and sustaining the lich. Without bodily process' disease won't be a problem (there are no living cells to infect) and even then the magic animating the body is not hindered by such effect...akin to a construct I guess.
I completely disagree. As I said, just because liches have magical fortifications does not change the fact that the underlying structure is still human tissue, and that is subject to disease and decay. Liches infuse their spirits within bodies soon after death, which means that while the body is dead on a macro level, it is still very much alive on a micro one. That is probably the reason why rot can successfully set in, giving liches their familiar, gruesome visages.
Check out the wiki article on <"Meat Spoilage">. Diseases can attack flesh while the animal is still alive (endogenous infection), and even after the animal has died (exogenous infection). It is thought that most food poisoning is actually caused by the latter, through improper handling after slaughter. The diseases set in after death, and they often persist.
Ahh, I think this is where the divergence in thought may lie. None of my posts are actually contradicting your points regarding corpses carrying disease...rather...they are saying that the symptoms (beyond tissue damage and organic degradation) do not impair the lich functioning. As the usual issues of disease regarding bodily functions (working hearts, muscles, lungs, nervous system etc.) are irrelvant to a Cadaverous or Skeletal Lich.
For Example: a Lich is not going to suffer from turburculosis or cancer but its body will still be subject to such ravages unless some sort of magical preservation or ritual is used (as stated).
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
It might be possible that the rotting process could be stopped at some point, rendering the skeleton almost like petrified tissue, or stone. At that point, there may be no further opportunity for disease to begin or continue.
But before that, I'd say "fair game".
This is an interesting idea and where my initial point about them not turning to dust after awhile was touching on. There does seem to be a limit to the decay that a Lich suffers from (even after thousands of years) which is presumably counteracted by the rituals described...as more than mere animation is going on. Maybe the Lich's magic is only engrained into the bones....with the flesh a mere vestige of life (say when contrasted with a vampire where the flesh seems to be preserved). Perhaps Lichdom is still an incomplete art?
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
OTOH, a lycanthrope might have an awfully hard time sinking his teeth into a lich guarded by magical wards, or even gettting close enough to try.
True, I doubt it is much of a worry. I was musing on an already lycanthropic wizard (a la Bidderdoo Harpell) pursuing Lichdom...and what remained of the curse/disease after the transformation. My thoughts, like Wooly's, are that it would not persist after death. Lycanthropes are known to revert to their original form upon death and like most symptoms of diseases rely on bodily functions to manifest, especially when it is something like abnormal growth or behavioural changes as in Were-creatures. Which are symptoms a Lich would not be subject to....methinks.
Hope that makes things clearer...or dirtier? whichever suits our grisly topic  |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 13:40:05
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To Eli, I do believe the body of a lich deteriorates and somehow the use of a power ritual to maintain their bodies as unnecessary. They are after all undead and can possess other bodies. If the use of a power ritual were necessary there would be 61 bolts of tremendous power in Larloch's pad. A lich's body instead of being subject to micro-organism would more likely be affected by the weather or even lack of it. Residing in a sealed underground lair, the lack of moisture would probably make the lich look like a mummy or some sort.
Heh, a lich with the honorific "the Thriller Arcanus". He animates some zombies and does the Thriller in front of some paladins... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 15:09:10
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quote:
sleyvas
I think being a lich who named himself ~@ , the lich formerly known as Bathemon, would be the kewlest.
I did have a frog formerly known as prince in my campaign once.
I couldn't resist dropping him into EX2: The Land Beyond the Magic Mirror (one of the "Alice in Wonderland" modules), as it was already brimming with punishing nonsense. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 Apr 2012 15:14:53 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Apr 2012 : 18:14:19
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A lycanthropic lich shouldn't be possible, but anything is possible, I suppose (I've seen undead werewolves, after all).
If it is a lich first, it cannot obtain the lycanthrope template (it only affects living things), and if was a lycanthrope first (a werewolf/wizard is entirely possible), then I think the lich-process would be subject to a high rate of failure - the 'healing factor' (regeneration) would override the ability to die, and if successful, then the lycanthropic abilities would be lost.
But like I said, I've seen undead werewolves (probably one of those 'wild magic' things), and the idea of a zombie changing into a zombie-wolf is kinda cool (or better yet, a ghoul lycanthrope... that should work).
There are so many different variations on the vampire theme (some even being 'a race') that for them it would be dependent upon sub-type. Considering all liches are unique creatures, then the same should apply to them as well. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Apr 2012 18:15:44 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 12:15:53
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What if a lich meets a dead magic/anti-magic zone, what would happen?
a)The lich falls inert unable to do anything?
b)The lich carries on but his magic is largely unaccessable?
c)Would Polymorph/Shapechange etc help?
(This is out of topic, but the Plane of Shadow or the Shadowfell is an echo of the Prime, thus anything that exist in the world has a copy, albeit a distorted one. If a flying enclave either Sakkors or Shade, and I am going by the flying enclaves of Netheril(past and present) were up there and someone went into Shadow would there be a echo of it?) |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 15:59:47
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Lycanthropy and undeath (at least vampirism) are at the same level in the template hierarchy. Technically this means the combination is not allowed. Although there are examples of "borderline" creatures which combine things like vampirism and fiend templates, so anything is possible.
I wouldn't allow it, personally, since lycanthropes are very much alive and their condition does not infect undead creatures. While liches are dead shells animated through eldritch power, immortal will, and a caged soul; I would think any lycanthropy they might have had would be lost along with their life force. Besides, from a role-playing and roll-playing point of view there is nothing to gain from combining the two, you simply acquire all the problems and vulnerabilities associated with both curses. |
[/Ayrik] |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 18 Apr 2012 : 19:40:13
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Ah, this appears to be a case where science, logic, and common sense run smack dab into Tha Rulez. I know nothing of how gaming templates. But as an outsider, looking in, I gotta say that it sounds awfully arbitrary to say that there's a conflict between them.
I'll also say that is often where Bob Salvatore would feel the need to go his own way and break away from the rules. If it otherwise makes sense to allow it, and he thinks he can tell a good tale that way, then he'd discuss it with his editors and go right ahead.
Hey, it's your call, in your game.
And sorry about the confusion, Eli! |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 05:04:41
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| True but RAS did not use Greeth to the fullest. He could have paralyzed Robillard with a touch and his skeletal hands would have dealt negative energy, not to mention using his spells, Greeth would have won the spell duel if not for the plot armour! |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 07:59:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
True but RAS did not use Greeth to the fullest. He could have paralyzed Robillard with a touch and his skeletal hands would have dealt negative energy, not to mention using his spells, Greeth would have won the spell duel if not for the plot armour!
Yep, Greeth came off as a cheesy two-bit villain of the week. I was expecting some major badassery to come forth, at least akin to the Lichmage Dyrr from "WOTSQ", from the much-lauded Archmage Arcane of the Hosttower.
However, I will take the time to restate the "insane" aspect of liches. Obsessing about living forever is said to drive most of these blokes mad, to say nothing of the process of having one's consciousness stripped from one's body, transplanted into a phylactery, and then transplanted back into one's corpse. Just because a lich does indeed possess mighty powers doesn't necessarily mean that he knows what the hell to do with them. He may be a babbling idiot sitting on top of a nuke, but he can't figure out how to throw the switch!
Recall from the lorebooks (not RAS's stuff) that in the late 1360s DR, as Greeth was finalizing his plans to become a lich, he left a leadership vacuum at the Hosttower. He completely turned his back on his responsibilities, there. And in his absence, his prime assistant was set up to be assassinated--all behind Greeth's back. The guy was completely clueless.
It wouldn't make sense for him to suddenly have become Mr. Logical and Perceptive by mid-1370s DR (The Pirate King), would it?
Robillard, though a lesser mage, was in full control of his mental faculties. He was royally pissed that his ship was going down, and he had apparently had an ongoing feud with Greeth for decades. So apparently, armed with the benefit of a complete sack of marbles, Robillard used his lesser abilities more effectively than Greeth did his greater abilities. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 12:09:39
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Magic allows nearly everything to be possible. So, yes, a lycanthrope can become a lich.
If a werewolf becomes a lich, both his human and wolf forms would be nothing but bones. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 14:12:48
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| I do not think liches are what we term crazy. They are the same people they were before, just that they are now eternal(since they exist rather than live) archmages with terrible magic, and their minds are simply unable to be understood. I mean if you were to converse with someone who existed when men were still living in caves you would not be able to comprehend him at all and call him mad, so therefore most Faerunians are simple people and delight in telling tales of heroic adventurers smiting the "mad" evil necromancers and so on. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 16:17:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Magic allows nearly everything to be possible. So, yes, a lycanthrope can become a lich.
If a werewolf becomes a lich, both his human and wolf forms would be nothing but bones.
If lycanthropy relies on biological process (a quite reasonable assumption, since in D&D it's like a disease), then you can't have an undead lycanthrope. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 16:47:24
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But, as I have said, I saw zombie werewolves written-up somewhere, so it is theoretically possible. IIRC, it was a side-effect of a 'wild-magic surge', or some-such. Given the all-intrusiveness of the Spellplague post-3e, that means such anomalies should not only be possible, but more likely then before.
I agree with you on principle - it should not happen, but it is still possible. I would simply say the normal biolgical process was altered by magic, and can now work on the dead flesh as well (the disease itself becoming undead, perhaps?)
Undead germs... now there's a scary thought. 
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
What if a lich meets a dead magic/anti-magic zone, what would happen?
a)The lich falls inert unable to do anything?
b)The lich carries on but his magic is largely unaccessable?
c)Would Polymorph/Shapechange etc help?
I believe it would suffer much the same effects as a mage would entering such an area. At first it would feel discomfort, then it would feel ill (a strange feeling for a lich), and then it would begin to feel light-headed and eventually fall unconscious (see what happened to Vangerdehast in Crusade).
It cannot cast (arcane) spells within a dead-magic zone, but the magic that animates it is based on negative energy/shadow magic, so it should still remain in-place. It could also be thought of in terms of magical devices after the Weave collapsed - permanent magic items (which a lich technically is) remain stable, because the magic that created them was already cast. It is only newly cast magic that is affected by the loose of The Weave (which is precisely what is happening within a dead-magic zone).
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
This is out of topic, but the Plane of Shadow or the Shadowfell is an echo of the Prime, thus anything that exist in the world has a copy, albeit a distorted one. If a flying enclave either Sakkors or Shade, and I am going by the flying enclaves of Netheril(past and present) were up there and someone went into Shadow would there be a echo of it?
This is a rather interesting - and brilliant - idea. 
Shadowy 'motes' floating in the Shadowfel and occupied by Shadar-Kai and others. Beautiful, park-like earthmotes hovering high above the ground, with tree-villages of fey and Elves in the Feywild. Me likey a LOT - great call! |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 21:40:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I do not think liches are what we term crazy. They are the same people they were before, just that they are now eternal(since they exist rather than live) archmages with terrible magic, and their minds are simply unable to be understood. I mean if you were to converse with someone who existed when men were still living in caves you would not be able to comprehend him at all and call him mad, so therefore most Faerunians are simple people and delight in telling tales of heroic adventurers smiting the "mad" evil necromancers and so on.
All immortals are mad to some extent, and some of them---including Szass Tam himself---are honest enough to admit to themselves. It's got to do with 'living' multiple lifetimes, seeing so many things, and thinking of a plethora of possibilities that power conjures. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 21:46:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Magic allows nearly everything to be possible. So, yes, a lycanthrope can become a lich.
If a werewolf becomes a lich, both his human and wolf forms would be nothing but bones.
If lycanthropy relies on biological process (a quite reasonable assumption, since in D&D it's like a disease), then you can't have an undead lycanthrope.
Seeing is a biological process, so is hearing, and thinking...And all those, a lich retains in his undead existence. So, why not another biological process? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 21:52:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Magic allows nearly everything to be possible. So, yes, a lycanthrope can become a lich.
If a werewolf becomes a lich, both his human and wolf forms would be nothing but bones.
If lycanthropy relies on biological process (a quite reasonable assumption, since in D&D it's like a disease), then you can't have an undead lycanthrope.
Seeing is a biological process, so is hearing, and thinking...And all those, a lich retains in his undead existence. So, why not another biological process?
Those processes are fulled by necromantic energies. Liches do not need to eat, sleep, breath, or worry about their cholesterol.
Magic has replaced their biological processes, so there is nothing for the lycanthropy to act on. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 22:10:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
Magic allows nearly everything to be possible. So, yes, a lycanthrope can become a lich.
If a werewolf becomes a lich, both his human and wolf forms would be nothing but bones.
If lycanthropy relies on biological process (a quite reasonable assumption, since in D&D it's like a disease), then you can't have an undead lycanthrope.
Seeing is a biological process, so is hearing, and thinking...And all those, a lich retains in his undead existence. So, why not another biological process?
Those processes are fulled by necromantic energies. Liches do not need to eat, sleep, breath, or worry about their cholesterol.
Magic has replaced their biological processes, so there is nothing for the lycanthropy to act on.
They are fueled by necromantic energies, correct. So if necromancy (magic in general) can replace a biological process and still make it work, albeit in a different way, then surely it can also replace some other biological processes, lycantrophy included.
And who said a lich does not have to worry about his cholesterol?! Have you seen Aumvor the Undying? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 19 Apr 2012 : 22:22:20
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| -Liches and their health. You know, I'd imagine they would have to, to some degree. Aumvor seems to have all that blood and flesh still in/on him, and I guess if it became all fatty and clotted, or something, there'd be some kind of adverse effects he'd have to deal with. Just like how we sometimes see sources talking about how the Undead feel 'stiff' at times. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 00:27:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Magic has replaced their biological processes[...].
Where is this stated?
MM I (3.5E) says "Decay and corruption are its constant companion."
That makes it sound to me like there is a biological process of decay/decomposition/biodegradation fully in effect with liches. Magic may slow the process down greatly, but it never goes away ("constant").
We know for a fact that they lose their eyeballs, which are replaced by red glowing dots. What do you think happened to them peepers? They decayed.
Again, I theorized above that perhaps, given enough time, the soft tissue may completely rot off a lich's bones, leaving just the skeleton behind, and magic might fortify the bones into petrified stone, akin to a mummy. But that's just a theory.
As long as any decaying flesh remains behind, though, a lich should theoretically be capable of being turned--if a lycan could ever get close enough, that is. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 02:56:22
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Magic has replaced their biological processes[...].
Where is this stated?
MM I (3.5E) says "Decay and corruption are its constant companion."
That makes it sound to me like there is a biological process of decay/decomposition/biodegradation fully in effect with liches. Magic may slow the process down greatly, but it never goes away ("constant").
We know for a fact that they lose their eyeballs, which are replaced by red glowing dots. What do you think happened to them peepers? They decayed.
Again, I theorized above that perhaps, given enough time, the soft tissue may completely rot off a lich's bones, leaving just the skeleton behind, and magic might fortify the bones into petrified stone, akin to a mummy. But that's just a theory.
As long as any decaying flesh remains behind, though, a lich should theoretically be capable of being turned--if a lycan could ever get close enough, that is.
Well, liches are dead. Yet they're still up and walking around, and still have full command of their bodies and their senses. Death ended their biological processes, but the fact that they're still able to do some of the same things as the living proves that something replaced those processes.
I think it's pretty clear that those processes are no longer being driven by anything biological, because if they were, they'd be subject to the demands of mortality -- needing to sleep, needing to eat, needing to spend a long time in the hopper after hitting the roadside taco stand, etc. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 05:50:15
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| They're dead guys who walk (or levitate) around, cloaked in an aura of supernatural cold/fear/darkness. If not magic, then what other explanation? |
[/Ayrik] |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 06:45:48
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Death ended their biological processes, but the fact that they're still able to do some of the same things as the living proves that something replaced those processes.
I think it's pretty clear that those processes are no longer being driven by anything biological, because if they were, they'd be subject to the demands of mortality -- needing to sleep, needing to eat, needing to spend a long time in the hopper after hitting the roadside taco stand, etc.
No, it's never been stated that anything other than natural decay is at the heart of the decay of their bodies. They don't die and instantaneously become skeletons. That takes time. Their bodies rot slowly, over time.
Yes, their bodies are dead. But that doesn't mean that natural decay ceases. Natural decay goes on long after the human body stops working. Microbes feeding off the flesh don't just stop. Bacteria spread disease within dead flesh just as easily as they do within live flesh.
So the microbes behind lycanthropy might be able to spread through a lich's dead flesh, too, while there is still flesh.
Once the flesh is gone, I don't know if the disease would still be present in the lich's magic-enhanced skeleton, though. Does the disease infect a lycan's bones, too? Probably, because a lycan's shapeshifting ability entails the morphing of its skeletal structure, as well as its flesh. So if a lich can become infected at all, then it should remain infected.
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
They're dead guys who walk (or levitate) around, cloaked in an aura of supernatural cold/fear/darkness. If not magic, then what other explanation?
Ummm . . . hello? Testing, testing. Is this thing on?
I feel like I'm talking to a brick wall, here, guys.
Magic explains the magical abilities.
But nature explains the rot of the lich's flesh. Bacteria spread throughout the cadaver's flesh, slowly devouring it, until the bones are picked clean.
And if microbes can do that, then they should be able to spread through the cadaver's flesh, slowly infecting it, until the lich is converted into a lyncanthrope.
That is, unless you guys are gonna pull out some sort of magical explanation for why a lich's body rots away all its flesh.
I think the buggers actually like to let nature run its course on their bodies, because it gives them such a grisly appearance. Bring on the maggots, worms, and roaches, too! They're not about to interfere with the natural process of decay by employing their magic. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 07:40:15
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I think that most liches are unconcerned with the whole decaying body thing, they do not seem to mind it. However certain liches like Szass Tam for example maintain the flesh, mainly I think it is because of a vanity thing. Plus they can choose to look like any creature they take a fancy to, so the whole corpse rotting thing is "wasted" as they can simply transform or disguise themselves to look like whatever they decide to look like.
Hmm...Now I wondering of a lich who takes the appearance of a young guy and proceeds to become a pop star in an evil bid to rule the minds of tweens and their moms...hmm... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 10:57:54
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| D&D defines lycanthropy as categorically unnatural; it is a magical affliction, governed by curses and lunar phases - not bacteria and microbes. Regardless whether it's a lich or werelich, fleshy or skeletal, it is still a supernatural creature sustained by magic. A lich walks, talks, plots, and casts spells; while natural dead things left in their natural state are simply ... dead. Perhaps "necrology" is a better terms than "biology", whatever, semantic quibbles won't change the fact that liches are animated by supernatural will imposing supernatural force. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 20 Apr 2012 : 13:02:13
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Perhaps one of the liches in the Realms is a were-lich, human by day, lich by night??
For that matter, does a lich crave the company of the living? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Need to Know: The Lich
