| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
 Posted - 28 Apr 2012 : 11:38:55
|
im·mune (adj.)
4. Resistant, protected, invulnerable to, insusceptible to, unaffected by, secure against, freed from or not subject to things to which others are subject, undergoing no change when acted upon
So ... I think what happens is pretty much the same thing that happens when Superman gets shot in the eyeball, neh? At least as the rules are written, the DM may always choose otherwise (as can canon authors, to a lesser extent). |
[/Ayrik] |
 |
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 10:44:50
|
| Thanks Ayrik, I thought if he got hit with liquid nitrogen he would shatter. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12007 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 13:03:56
|
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I think that liches in a way "can" be sexy, instead of saying are not sexy. I mean you have existed for millenias and there is that oh so pretty mage who is being charmed by other potential mage suitors. Casting spells of illusion and transmutation you make you way towards the mage and perhaps intellect alone will win the heart of the mage.
Besides you have a virtual eternity to learn sexy, plane shift to another world learning street dancing, breakdance and you will be the life of the party. Learn parkour and in a medieval setting you are able to outrun the swiftest paladin or priest.
Ironica the lich made a fortune giving lap dances to patrons. I mean, what peasant man would tell a half rotted woman with glowing eyes "no, go away". There was even one individual who was excited by her performance. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12007 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 13:13:25
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Remember that DMGR7 was written explicitly for DMs and strongly cautions against applying any of the new necromancer material to PCs. DMGR6: Complete Book of Villains and Van Richten's Guide to the Lich are specifically referenced in the section presenting the spell. Life force exchange (and its reverse) represents the pinnacle of necromantic spellcraft, a 9th level spell exclusively available to specialist necromancers. It's obviously a "black" or "gray" necromancy, casting it would probably be categorically evil since I doubt any living creature would willingly submit to any such transfer.
I think allowing this spell as written would be grossly unbalancing and unfair, whether used against the PCs or by them, so I would probably make it a 10th level "Epic" spell or turn it into some sort of complex ritual which requires exotic material components, astrological alignment, or some other factor limiting how often the spell could be cast in practice. The effect seems not unlike the bloodstone ritual Fistandantilus intended to cast upon Raistlin, so I would assume the casting details have a similar scope. Treating it as just another 9th level spell you can cast out of your powergaming arsenal after rolling initiative really cheapens the supernatural horror potential of both the spell and the spellcaster.
That's a very good observation. Yeah, it really should be a special epic ritual that needs to be developed by the person. There could also be mitigating factors that make the spell harder and harder. For instance, if the spell is transferring the person to another body that's the same race and sex, its one cost. Different sex should change the cost. Different sub-race should raise the cost. Different race but same creature type (i.e. humanoid, magical beast, dragon, etc...) even more. Different creature type even more, and probably should have a table for the various types (for instance humanoid to say outsider should be extremely hard). Also, for balance reasons, size should matter as far as just making it more difficult (i.e. the spirit just doesn't know how to manage something so big/small). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2012 : 21:29:34
|
... and a target like Raistlin who happens to be a supra-genius archmage specifically prepared to counter, influence, or mirror the spellcasting could have unintended consequences better explained on an individual story basis than through fixed game rules.
The main reason I'd impose some practical limits is that, as written, this spell could allow an immoral necromancer to transfer all permanent draining, CON loss, HP loss, aging, and other such stuff onto other people - which is another way of saying that once he can cast this spell (at least once per day as a specialist, lol) he can theoretically gain unlimited castings of wish and permanency and remain strong while others suffer in his stead. Although this is exactly the sort of thing you'd expect from an evil archmage necromancer, I just don't feel it's the sort of thing which fits the "balance" of AD&D 2E outside of novels. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2012 : 06:57:06
|
| I do like the way spells are portrayed though. Like in Elminster in Myth Drannor, when the three Starym archmages blast down Mythanthor(or Mythanthar?) tower, that was some serious magic. |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 01 May 2012 : 05:58:24
|
| Where do you think a demilich goes to when he astral projects? Demiliches are said to have reached the end of their arcane journey but where do they go exactly? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 06:42:55
|
| What would be the best choice for a lich's phylactery? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 06:58:43
|
Anything that's not obvious. A normal-looking stone, for example. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 07:34:00
|
| Van Richten's Guide to the Lich discusses the topic in much detail. Phylacteries typically have to follow the same sorts of rules as other magical items (in AD&D 2E) ... that is, they must be the finest, rarest, most expensive varieties, etc, etc. The vast majority of phylacteries are extraordinary gemstones or crystals of great value, they are sometimes set within other valuable magic items (like a blood-red ruby pommel on a vampiric sword of wounding, or whatever). Some liches have no proper phylactery, their soulstuff is encased within their bodies and they enjoy advantages of added potency and resilience at the risk of being utterly slain when their body is destroyed. One lich stored his phylactery within an unusual golem construct, another within the magical figurehead of a spelljamming vessel, and yet another within a (benign) mythal-like field encompassing a small town. |
[/Ayrik] |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 14:03:34
|
| Wait the lich keeps his phylactery within a benign mythal? And it did not try to hurt him in the slightest? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 03 May 2012 : 20:27:24
|
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Wait the lich keeps his phylactery within a benign mythal? And it did not try to hurt him in the slightest?
-Sammaster had his phylactery as the central stone that supported the planet-wide Dracorage Mythal.
-In terms of generalities, if a mythal is not keyed to have any untoward effect on an Undead, entering inside of one is completely safe to them. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 04:35:57
|
It wasn't exactly a regular mythal. It was more like a twisted version of it, as Sammaster linked his phyllactery to various planes that emit negative energy, and used it to power said mythal. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 04:53:35
|
As I understand, his phylactery replaced the role that the King-Killer Star played, but he had to funnel infernal energy in order to keep the Dracorage constantly running...
Do you think that Sammaster could have prepared another phylactery? A bit impossible but he could have if he felt paranoid enough to seed the mountains that held the castle where the Dracorage Mythal was kept... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 04:59:41
|
I think Richard confirmed that it was the last of Sammaster's phylacteries. Of course, any other author who wishes to continue Sammy's tale can easily change that. Or if the Power-That-Be orders him to. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 14:58:01
|
| Right on! Maybe RLB could work it into the current BOTG series. The Eminence of Araunt working with the First Speaker... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2012 : 15:53:06
|
The easiest way they could bring Sammaster back is to simply make him an Exarch of Draconic powers. Death really means very little in D&D - its far from final (and easily reversible).
As for the Mythal, a long time ago Karsus and I (and others) were toying with a tier-system based on "layered area-effect spells", which would start with Spell Mantles (Ed's 'hanging spells'), and work its way up through localized magical-distortion fields (like Drow Spell-Webs, which usually only effect a single structure or small group of structures), up to the Mythal/Mythallar type of magical fields, all the way up to a Divine Domain (which is nothing more then a demi-plane with a personalized Mythal layered on it).
In fact, all planes and spheres have these as well - Mystra's Weave is the greatest example of one created in the Prime material (the ones governing infinite planes are theoretical more powerful, because they are further-reaching). In the Planescape setting this is simply referred to as the plane's physics, which are further altered locally near godly domains.
Do the archfiends have anything like that? Are they able to set specific conditions around them? 
Just had an odd thought... if deities are pure energy, and these field-effects are pure energy, then a deity IS it's own Mythal. 
Which brings us right back to Mystra and her Weave. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
Edited by - Markustay on 04 May 2012 15:56:21 |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 05 May 2012 : 07:24:34
|
Can anyone help explain spell mantles? and spell webs?
There are also plenty of liches which have not received their time in the spotlight. I'm sure that these liches could be used for novels and such... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2012 : 09:59:07
|
| Are spell mantles/spell webs something that can be found online? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12007 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2012 : 15:54:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Are spell mantles/spell webs something that can be found online?
The most basic Spell Mantles were in essence spells that were "hung" on a character (somewhat akin to a contingency, in fact in 3E there was a feat that required craft contingent feat first, and it allowed you to activate any crafted contingent spell without meeting the normal trigger requirements). Mantles have been defined in a couple formats, but all are "hung" spells... precast, waiting to be cast later. Sometimes mantles have been defined to be caster only, other times they could be targeted on others, and other mantles used the spells hung to power minor defenses/powers on the creator until they are released (like a mini-mythal).
Spell Webs... I've heard the term and always thought of it as a layering of spells such that triggering one may cause some kind of chain reaction, etc... however, I don't think its ever been defined in any pre-4E game terminology. Hope it helps. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2012 : 05:43:10
|
| Thanks sleyvas. Much of 3e/3.5e stuff has never been brought to 4e so i guess something like spell mantles/webs need to be answered by Ed... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12007 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2012 : 01:28:13
|
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Thanks sleyvas. Much of 3e/3.5e stuff has never been brought to 4e so i guess something like spell mantles/webs need to be answered by Ed...
No problem. A lot of the concepts first came about in 2nd edition, but they were quickly overpowered by the fact that there was nothing stopping every mage from theoretically knowing of them. That was one of the things I really liked about 3.5e was that there were a lot of options out there and you could see where X build could work to do something for your character, but you could also do it another way, but you couldn't do them ALL. It forced people to really show why they were able to do some interesting ability.
Anyway, there are several spells you might be interested in, but one that you might find of particular interest in 2E lore was the "Sash of Spells" from Volo's Guide to All Things magical. In most respects, it was simply a construct of magic that stored spells that you cast into it for later release. If you stored multiples of the same spell, it actually gave you extra charges. You could cast a spell and release a sash based spell in the same round. The sash based spell was also release silently and stilled. The sash was also virtually immune to most means to disrupt magic. The sash stayed until all spells were released. The sash could be transferred to another. Also, while it was up, you gained a miraculous side ability.... you didn't have to sleep and weariness didn't affect you. The spell was definitely over the top in power and needed some tweaking, but the general concept of it so matches to the idea of the spell mantle that it was even referenced as having been developed from lore of that era. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2012 : 05:44:43
|
| Thanks sleyvas, yes i have heard of the sash of spells, as i remember it could not be dispelled with the ordinary dispel magic...? 2e spell lore is/was quite powerful and i wonder how come it was not tranferred to later editions? I mean it was powerful but it also had some requirements... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12007 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2012 : 21:13:36
|
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Thanks sleyvas, yes i have heard of the sash of spells, as i remember it could not be dispelled with the ordinary dispel magic...? 2e spell lore is/was quite powerful and i wonder how come it was not tranferred to later editions? I mean it was powerful but it also had some requirements...
My view on it is this, some things just simply shouldn't be a "spell" but rather a "study" or a "learned ritual". For example, I'm not big on the fact that circle magic is known by 3 groups within the realms. However, I am much more pleased with that than the idea that the "circle" spell is just a 1st lvl spell. Similarly, I'm fine with the idea of there being a single contingency spell and even chain contingency. However, if you want to be "hanging" lots of spells then you really should have learned this through either a special class ability or a learned ability such as a feat.
I'd say the same thing should go for things like "retributive shield" type spells (i.e. one of the things I used to do in the past was just layer multiple "you hit me and get hurt" spells on myself, such that my toon might get hit and take 5 damage but almost slay the person who hit me). There should be a feat or somesuch that allows the character to place a retributive shield of X energy type based upon a spell being cast into it, such that every hit he takes causes a small return "jolt" to the person hitting them. It should have the retributive spell feat as a prerequisite. It would have saved all of the different "retributive" spells that then got developed in complete mage (the same book as the retributive spell feat)... which if some enterprising mage casts all of such on himself using ... say... craft contingent spell multiple times with the trigger of "if I'm attacked in melee"... But, don't get me wrong, the retributive spell feat is ten times better than the rainbow shield spell that was in 2E (which I loved, but I was a bit power hungry then). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 00:44:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The easiest way they could bring Sammaster back is to simply make him an Exarch of Draconic powers. Death really means very little in D&D - its far from final (and easily reversible).
Nah. Yet another redundancy? Have you forgotten there are already so many gods, godlings, and demi-gods among the dragonkind? |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 05:50:52
|
| I do hope that a author writes about a lich as the main character. Maybe he could have been transformed but did not remember? then later has to find out who tranformed him?... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 06:04:00
|
That would be the first. I never heard of someone who was transformed into a lich by somebody else, except, of course, dracoliches. The "liching" process is quite personal. You have to be mentally prepared for the transformation. And forcing it on someone could have disastrous results, including the failure to transform. |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 12:26:08
|
Maybe it could be like telling the story of how the lich starts off? His journey and adventure through unlife?
Something has recently come up though, was reading a 4e book coincidentally while searching for novels haven't read yet, and i came across an adventure the lich's lair IIRC. It stated that the lich was under a powerful curse and could not flee its phylactery so when the heroes came they were sucked into it. This got me thinking, when a lich goes into its phylactery does it do any decorating or furnishing? your thoughts on this please...Thanks! |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
|
|
|
|
Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 19:08:53
|
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Maybe it could be like telling the story of how the lich starts off? His journey and adventure through unlife?
I and a couple of scribes discussed something similar to this in another thread. Not just Sammy, but other prominent villains, too. Stories that show their childhood---what made them who they are now... |
Every beginning has an end. |
|
|
|
Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 20:41:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The easiest way they could bring Sammaster back is to simply make him an Exarch of Draconic powers. Death really means very little in D&D - its far from final (and easily reversible).
Nah. Yet another redundancy? Have you forgotten there are already so many gods, godlings, and demi-gods among the dragonkind?
But how many of them are human?  |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
|
|
|
|
Topic |
|
Need to Know: The Lich
