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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
 Posted - 09 May 2012 : 20:58:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The easiest way they could bring Sammaster back is to simply make him an Exarch of Draconic powers. Death really means very little in D&D - its far from final (and easily reversible).
Nah. Yet another redundancy? Have you forgotten there are already so many gods, godlings, and demi-gods among the dragonkind?
But how many of them are human? 
Fair enough. It's just that, admittedly, my above comment was influenced by my (known) dislike for the scaly folk.
There are more paths that Sammaster could tread, though. To be a draconic exarch is a bit too obvious, IMO. I'd rather he fight the Eminence or Thay, or ally with either one; and conquer some lands. Which ultimately would herald "The Empires of the Dead." Sounds good? |
Every beginning has an end. |
Edited by - Dennis on 09 May 2012 21:02:52 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 21:40:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The easiest way they could bring Sammaster back is to simply make him an Exarch of Draconic powers. Death really means very little in D&D - its far from final (and easily reversible).
Nah. Yet another redundancy? Have you forgotten there are already so many gods, godlings, and demi-gods among the dragonkind?
But how many of them are human?
None. Because dragons won't worship someone they can squash by accident. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 09 May 2012 : 23:00:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
The easiest way they could bring Sammaster back is to simply make him an Exarch of Draconic powers. Death really means very little in D&D - its far from final (and easily reversible).
Nah. Yet another redundancy? Have you forgotten there are already so many gods, godlings, and demi-gods among the dragonkind?
But how many of them are human?
None. Because dragons won't worship someone they can squash by accident.
 Good point, Wooly. On the other hand, no sane human would worship a scaly being whose breath stinks worse than the sewers. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 05:39:12
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| Well the Cult of the Dragon do it...How do they make dracoliches anyway? Their process is not well known as the common lichdom used by the other races... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 10 May 2012 : 12:31:18
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| Cult of the Dragon describes the process well enough, in terms of AD&D 2E game rules and of Realms-immersed story/setting. The process is not unlike human liching, it requires a specially prepared phylactery, special potion consumed by the dragon (which kills and transforms the body), and the dragon's actual consent - it must willingly submit to the process. This last detail is the most difficult to arrange, but the Cult uses all sorts of evil bastard methods. The Cult's process also installs a great deal of magical control and compulsion over their dracoliches; once they gain possession of a dragon's anima (soul), they never relinquish it, the dracoliches are enslaved. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 11 May 2012 : 05:33:37
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| Something has recently come up though, was reading a 4e book coincidentally while searching for novels haven't read yet, and i came across an adventure the lich's lair IIRC. It stated that the lich was under a powerful curse and could not flee its phylactery so when the heroes came they were sucked into it. This got me thinking, when a lich goes into its phylactery does it do any decorating or furnishing? your thoughts on this please...Thanks! |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12007 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 01:14:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Something has recently come up though, was reading a 4e book coincidentally while searching for novels haven't read yet, and i came across an adventure the lich's lair IIRC. It stated that the lich was under a powerful curse and could not flee its phylactery so when the heroes came they were sucked into it. This got me thinking, when a lich goes into its phylactery does it do any decorating or furnishing? your thoughts on this please...Thanks!
It inhabits its phylactery in spirit form only, not physical like a genie's bottle. There's nothing to decorate. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 12 May 2012 : 05:23:38
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Ergo, since the entire 'inside' of the phylactory is a representation of the Lich's mind, it can indeed decorate it any way it wants (I would imagine this is akin to a very tiny version of a divine domain).
I am still trying to work-out the mechanics of my own 'undeath' system. I like D&D's system, but it needs some heavy tweaking (even the word itself is an oxymoron). I think all undead (except incorporeal) are souless, so the 'spirit' of a lich CAN'T be in a phylactory - that has to be the lich's mind.
However, I have slightly changed the definitions, so now 'soul' means the spiritual aspect of a person, and 'spirit' means their psyche - the mind, in D&D terms (which usually winds up in the astral after death). So when I say the spirit of a lich is trapped, I really mean its psyche (mind).
I am going for a body/mind/soul holistic approach (which I believe they also did in 4 with the animus/mind/spirit thing). Weirdly, I find the soul is best attached to a person's Shadow (this goes with a lot of folklore), which is odd, because shadow is usually identified with being anti-spiritual (anti-religious/devout). I am trying to create rules attached to folklore with useable mechanics, so right now I'm thinking a person's reflection contains the mind/spirit/consciousness, the heart the Animus (because primitive emotions reside there - the Id/reptilian brain), and the shadow contains the soul (the subconscious). It gives a nod to the Freudian model, but strays far from it.
Its obviously a work-in-progress - I haven't been able to refine it beyond the basic premise yet. Anyhow, all undead should be built off of that (they contain one or two, but not all three). This also allows for some fun with known mechanics/folklore - if you are able to 'contain' one of these three aspects, and separate it from your body, you can achieve various forms of immortality (just ask Peter Pan, who's shadow was detached). This likens the soul/shadow to the concept of familiars in His Dark Material (The Golden Compass), although in those stories, this led to death (because it was contained, but no longer had any connection to the person). At least Wendy was smart-enough to sew peter's shadow to his feet (so separate, but maintainig a physical connection). Thus, by my logic, gods (avatars) should never cast a shadow (this part is mostly just a flavor-thing).
Like I said - its a WIP, and I may trash the whole thing and start over any day now. If there is one thing I am consistent about in my life, its my constant inconsistency. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 May 2012 14:40:22 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 05:39:04
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| Why not go for life-force being attached to the term soul/spirit and animus being the energy or substance that keeps them working? I do believe that a lich, however retains its soul,mind psyche everything and the evil things they do is simply choosing to do so... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 05:49:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That would be the first. I never heard of someone who was transformed into a lich by somebody else, except, of course, dracoliches. The "liching" process is quite personal. You have to be mentally prepared for the transformation. And forcing it on someone could have disastrous results, including the failure to transform.
See earlier in this thread about Valindra Shadowmantle being converted by Arklem Greeth without her prior knowledge or consent. It's likely that he discussed the process of lichdom with her beforehand, because they were lovers, and he had been obsessing for years over undergoing the process himself. But when she died in The Pirate King, he took her corpse and changed her into a lich, then "revived" her and broke the news to her. She understandably freaked.
And she's been apparently freaking for a century, ever since. In Neverwinter, she still comes across as a crazy. But there are telltale hints that it is now an act, by which Valindra keeps allies and enemies alike underestimating her true capacity to scheme and plot right under their noses.
It would appear that the unwilling conversion process in Valindra's particular case did indeed lead to driving her mad for a time. But she's on the way out of that madness now.
And interaction with a certain Abolethic Ambassador in the region of Neverwinter will probably aid her recovery tremendously. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 13 May 2012 : 14:50:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Why not go for life-force being attached to the term soul/spirit and animus being the energy or substance that keeps them working? I do believe that a lich, however retains its soul,mind psyche everything and the evil things they do is simply choosing to do so...
I think - maybe - that a lich's soul is its phylactory (the actual physical item is just what it is bound to).
Thus, the lich's psyche - which normally resides inside its decomposing corpse - is transferred to the phylactory with the soul when the body is destroyed. Once a new vessel is ready, the mind then enters it... but the soul remains behind; it is forever bound to the phylactory.
Just my take is all - I prefer that all undead are souless, which is why they are naturally evil (they are an abomination against the natural order). However, there are items - like helms of alignment reversal - that can overcome the evil, so I have to figure-out whats going on there (a vampire with a soul?) The idea that something without a soul can be 'good' rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps a new soul can be 'born' into a being, under extreme circumstances? (since we have redeemed demons & devils as well).
Like I said, still a WIP in the earliest stages.
Baelnorn are easy - the High Magic that creates them removes their soul (creating the Baelnorn form), but then re-attaches it. Ergo, its phylactory resides inside of it, so it isn't as easily corrupted as a lich or other intelligent undead.
Hmmmmmm... maybe its a matter of proximity... {we need a chin-rubbing smiley} |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 13 May 2012 14:51:37 |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 06:06:53
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But would that also mean if a baelnorn is destroyed, its stays dead for good?
For that matter if a human lich can regrow its body in 1-10 days why not a dracolich? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 09:55:25
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| Dracoliches do reappear after destruction of their phylactery. They do not regain all of their full powers until they occupy the corpse of a same-colour and same-age dragon, or at least consume the flesh of one (or several) to rebuild their draconic "mass". Again, Van Richten's Guide to the Lich and Cult of the Dragon discuss all the (2E) rules in complete detail, whatever remains unsaid is for DMs and authors to decide, and again, each lich (or dracolich) is a somewhat unique entity, although dracoliches created by the Cult invariably become enslaved by their particular process. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 13:55:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Ergo, since the entire 'inside' of the phylactory is a representation of the Lich's mind, it can indeed decorate it any way it wants (I would imagine this is akin to a very tiny version of a divine domain).
I am still trying to work-out the mechanics of my own 'undeath' system. I like D&D's system, but it needs some heavy tweaking (even the word itself is an oxymoron). I think all undead (except incorporeal) are souless, so the 'spirit' of a lich CAN'T be in a phylactory - that has to be the lich's mind.
However, I have slightly changed the definitions, so now 'soul' means the spiritual aspect of a person, and 'spirit' means their psyche - the mind, in D&D terms (which usually winds up in the astral after death). So when I say the spirit of a lich is trapped, I really mean its psyche (mind).
I am going for a body/mind/soul holistic approach (which I believe they also did in 4 with the animus/mind/spirit thing). Weirdly, I find the soul is best attached to a person's Shadow (this goes with a lot of folklore), which is odd, because shadow is usually identified with being anti-spiritual (anti-religious/devout). I am trying to create rules attached to folklore with useable mechanics, so right now I'm thinking a person's reflection contains the mind/spirit/consciousness, the heart the Animus (because primitive emotions reside there - the Id/reptilian brain), and the shadow contains the soul (the subconscious). It gives a nod to the Freudian model, but strays far from it.
Its obviously a work-in-progress - I haven't been able to refine it beyond the basic premise yet. Anyhow, all undead should be built off of that (they contain one or two, but not all three). This also allows for some fun with known mechanics/folklore - if you are able to 'contain' one of these three aspects, and separate it from your body, you can achieve various forms of immortality (just ask Peter Pan, who's shadow was detached). This likens the soul/shadow to the concept of familiars in His Dark Material (The Golden Compass), although in those stories, this led to death (because it was contained, but no longer had any connection to the person). At least Wendy was smart-enough to sew peter's shadow to his feet (so separate, but maintainig a physical connection). Thus, by my logic, gods (avatars) should never cast a shadow (this part is mostly just a flavor-thing).
Like I said - its a WIP, and I may trash the whole thing and start over any day now. If there is one thing I am consistent about in my life, its my constant inconsistency.
A lot of jewish lore has it that the soul is in the shadow. This is where the entire vampires have no shadows comes from, as they have no soul. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 14:00:33
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If this has been covered already, then I apologize.
(Disclammer, I know that authors break the mechanics when it suits them. Warning, spoilers coming).
In the Pirate King, Valindra Shadowmantle after becoming a litch, is affected by telepathy. Ill leave it at that, and ask, it is my understanding that undead cant be affected by psychic powers. I mean the telepathic kind, is that correct?
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 14 May 2012 : 15:46:52
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| Mindless undead cannot be affected by telepathy. Mental illusion and mental control seems to be judged on a case-by-case basis. Mental powers which have physical effects can certainly blast zombies. I expect vampires could be affected by telepathic powers, many even have some sorts of telepathy of their own, although they might be highly resistant. Liches are creatures of superhuman intellect, and psionic liches exist ... these could certainly be affected by psionics, although their psychic mastery and raw potency could vastly overwhelm all but the most extraordinary mortals. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 03:43:33
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quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That would be the first. I never heard of someone who was transformed into a lich by somebody else, except, of course, dracoliches. The "liching" process is quite personal. You have to be mentally prepared for the transformation. And forcing it on someone could have disastrous results, including the failure to transform.
See earlier in this thread about Valindra Shadowmantle being converted by Arklem Greeth without her prior knowledge or consent. It's likely that he discussed the process of lichdom with her beforehand, because they were lovers, and he had been obsessing for years over undergoing the process himself. But when she died in The Pirate King, he took her corpse and changed her into a lich, then "revived" her and broke the news to her. She understandably freaked.
And she's been apparently freaking for a century, ever since. In Neverwinter, she still comes across as a crazy. But there are telltale hints that it is now an act, by which Valindra keeps allies and enemies alike underestimating her true capacity to scheme and plot right under their noses.
It would appear that the unwilling conversion process in Valindra's particular case did indeed lead to driving her mad for a time. But she's on the way out of that madness now.
And interaction with a certain Abolethic Ambassador in the region of Neverwinter will probably aid her recovery tremendously.
All liches are mad. But maybe, just maybe, forcibly turning a mortal into lich increases the madness to a considerable degree. I even theorized that in some cases, the forced transformation would completely erase the mortal's identity---much like what happened to Mirror. I know, it's not a perfect example; he wasn't turned into a lich. But he was transformed (without his consent, definitely) into a ghost-like undead by Fastrin's still unknown spell, obliterating all his memories... |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 04:40:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
quote:
Originally posted by BEAST
quote:
Originally posted by Dennis
That would be the first. I never heard of someone who was transformed into a lich by somebody else, except, of course, dracoliches. The "liching" process is quite personal. You have to be mentally prepared for the transformation. And forcing it on someone could have disastrous results, including the failure to transform.
See earlier in this thread about Valindra Shadowmantle being converted by Arklem Greeth without her prior knowledge or consent. It's likely that he discussed the process of lichdom with her beforehand, because they were lovers, and he had been obsessing for years over undergoing the process himself. But when she died in The Pirate King, he took her corpse and changed her into a lich, then "revived" her and broke the news to her. She understandably freaked.
And she's been apparently freaking for a century, ever since. In Neverwinter, she still comes across as a crazy. But there are telltale hints that it is now an act, by which Valindra keeps allies and enemies alike underestimating her true capacity to scheme and plot right under their noses.
It would appear that the unwilling conversion process in Valindra's particular case did indeed lead to driving her mad for a time. But she's on the way out of that madness now.
And interaction with a certain Abolethic Ambassador in the region of Neverwinter will probably aid her recovery tremendously.
All liches are mad. But maybe, just maybe, forcibly turning a mortal into lich increases the madness to a considerable degree. I even theorized that in some cases, the forced transformation would completely erase the mortal's identity---much like what happened to Mirror. I know, it's not a perfect example; he wasn't turned into a lich. But he was transformed (without his consent, definitely) into a ghost-like undead by Fastrin's still unknown spell, obliterating all his memories...
Well, first she's an elf, which according to several FR sources, consider Litchdom particularly abhorent. She was forcably altered, which means she has to deal with dieing, being altered into something she may find personally abhorent in herself, the fact that she know probably no longer has a soul, or at least, one source I've read stated litchdom in that way, and a whole host of other psychological matters. This is on top of an entire host of other issues, which I'm sure you are aware.
Frankly, the alteration from anyone, against their will, to a state of unnatural existence, would be a psychological crisis that they'd have to get over. She seemed to take it a bit hard, but not unexpectedly so. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 05:25:11
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| In Neverwinter, Valindra seems to have some lucidity and even in the novel Gauntlgrym Sylora Salm did mention that she was beginning to claw herself out of her temporary madness. However it is also interesting to note, that Valindra managed to bind the spirit of Dorcrae and he was a vampire! If a vampire has no soul, how did Valindra managed to capture anything at all??? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 05:31:48
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Vampires have souls. We just give it a different name: sentience. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 15 May 2012 : 23:45:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
However it is also interesting to note, that Valindra managed to bind the spirit of Dorcrae and he was a vampire! If a vampire has no soul, how did Valindra managed to capture anything at all???
I still haven't read the recent comic mini-series Neverwinter Tales. Bob supposedly explained Valindra's capturing of Dor'crae in there. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 03:49:28
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There was a comic about it? Huh go figure.
Still Valindra is lucid and is faking her crazy, will there be a reappearance by Greeth if she manages to get him back? For that matter will the Archmage Arcane seek revenge?? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 03:56:48
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I am just now reading The Summoning, first book of RotAW.
Wulgreth has Elminster on the run (and out of spells), and then finishes off Melgaunt (another archwizard) as an afterthought.
A Chosen & a Shade - all in a day's work for a REAL lich.
I think that Greeth thing was a skeleton with delusions of grandeur. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 16 May 2012 03:57:37 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 04:09:16
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Wulgreth ?
Seriously? Seriously.
You mean that they took the main villan straight from Shadow of shattered ice, all right, maybe not entirely, but the name is there, and the fact he's a litch is there, and a wizard to boot.
Well, what can I say?
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Lord Karsus
Great Reader
USA
3746 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 04:12:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
Wulgreth ?
Seriously? Seriously.
You mean that they took the main villan straight from Shadow of shattered ice, all right, maybe not entirely, but the name is there, and the fact he's a litch is there, and a wizard to boot.
Well, what can I say?
-Large parts of the Dire Woods was lifted straight or semi-modified from DragonQuest, another game/setting. |
(A Tri-Partite Arcanist Who Has Forgotten More Than Most Will Ever Know)
Elves of Faerūn
Vol I- The Elves of Faerūn
Vol. III- Spells of the Elves
Vol. VI- Mechanical Compendium |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 04:15:21
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| And Wulgreth cloned himself... sort of... |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 11:25:27
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Wait a realms-minute, wasn't the Wulgreth(both of them) in ROTA demiliches. That makes it different correct?
Moreover the first Wulgreth(netherese one) should have been more of a challenge for Galaeron and his allies... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 15:14:58
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Nope.
Ancient Wulgreth (the Netherese one) was a push-over demi-lich, but the other - who's origins are no less murky after reading the book - was an archwizard uber-lich extraordinaire, that even Elminster ran from.
I'm not up to the end of this confrontation, but his awesome might may have something to do with his choice of phylactory. Still, he feels like the way a lich should feel. The guy was at least in Szass Tam's league, and maybe even Larloch's.
Greeth was a loser. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 May 2012 05:51:58 |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 15:33:45
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| I'd always thought Wulgreth was liched through a bit of an accident involving a lump of Karsus's jettisoned supercritical heavy magic landing on (and killing) him from far above, and that somehow Jingleshod was Wulgreth's "living" phylactery. Not to mention that Wulgreth just happens to be located in the only place in Faerūn where he might conceivably tap into or commune with the magical energies of semi-dormant semi-divine Karsus. Perhaps this is all because a former DM introduced his own particularly twisted complications to the issue, I'll admit that I'm not exactly sure (nor especially interested) in WotC's version of the canon. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 16 May 2012 15:36:00 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 15:48:39
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Wulgreth's phylactery is the Karsestone itself---that alone speaks volumes of what he can do. Having direct access to such power makes him all the more formidable. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Need to Know: The Lich
