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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 16 May 2012 : 17:22:35
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Gee Dennis, and here I was not trying to provide spoilers. 
Anyhow, dsespite liking the novel far more then I thought I would, I found the way he handled the wulgreth stuff really bad. Not the writing - just the way he 'fixed' the continuity gaff.
And by 'fix', I mean take the mistake and run with it (making it SO much worse), rather then trying to correct it. The amount of similarities between the two Wulgreths go far beyond the level of believability, IMHO. Basically, he just took the mistake, repeated it - providing no new info on Wulgreth 2.0 - and left it up to future writers to still deal with. What makes it worse is that now it is nearly impossible to correct (unless we ignore the lore in the novels).
There's still an out - the second Wulgreth was possessed for a time by the first (possibly upon becoming a demilich), who attracted Wulgreth2 to the Karse location in hopes of gaining a new body, but the second Wulgreth was too clever and powerful, and broke Wulgreth1's control upon becoming a lich himself. Ergo, there is a reason why the two are so similar, and their pasts are so hazy - Wulgreth2 still retains much of Wulgeth1's memories (and kept the name, which he used for many years before becoming a lich).
A bit screwy, but better then the other explanation I came up with: Wulgreth2 is a Wulgreth from an alternate reality.
Anyhow, the Netherse Wulgreth - the one transformed by heavy Magic - is the weaker one in the story - he is defeated very easily (although this can be attributed to the parety's preparedness). He is also a demilich, which also makes sense within the convoluted continuity - he is much older (this part I think Troy Denning got right, so I have to give him credit there).
However, I think the most intersting part of the book (thus far) isn't the stuff about the Wulgreths, but rather, the other info alluded to in that same area - Mystra and Mystryl were VERY different creatures. I think that point gets lost amongst all the Phaerimm/lich/Shades/Chosen hubbub happening all over the place. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 May 2012 15:22:29 |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 16 May 2012 : 17:32:35
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Heh. It's hardly a spoiler. Many scribes discussed it in multiple threads before.
I wonder, if Mystryl, not Mystra, still lived during the events in the trilogy (3E), would she go to the lengths of personally trying to stop Shade from returning, to avert another possible grab of her divinity? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 06:11:20
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No I don't think so. Maybe she would have her Chosen keep an eye on them for the use of shadow magic?
Besides there were 2 wulgreths the netherese wulgreth and the hellgate wulgreth. If i am not mistaken the netherese one was transformed by the heavy magic that Karsus threw off the enclave and it landed on him. When Karsus was separated netherese refugees started worshiping his body and that kind of made him angry and he killed the lot of them.
The hellgate keep wulgreth summoned devils to aid him againts rivals before it was known as hellgate keep. Then his opponents summoned demons which was too effective since they took over the place. He ran away with the Iron Axeman, his bodyguard and tried to create an army of undead with the Karsetone, but Jhingleshod killed him, while he was in the middle of his ritual, this caused his transformation and he bound his soul into the Karsestone. Still he is a powerful demilich but Elminster ran because the Dire Wood was an area of Wild Magic. So aide from using silver fire what else would he have done?? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 06:34:27
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| Why two Wulgreths when one would suffice? Unless the second Wulgreth assumed the identity of the first for whatever (magical?) reasons. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 11:16:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Why two Wulgreths when one would suffice? Unless the second Wulgreth assumed the identity of the first for whatever (magical?) reasons.
It's prolly a continuity glitch. I expect that the second Wulgreth was intended to be a clever use of the first, but was created without knowing the full story. Or both Wulgreths were created by someone entirely independently; and both creators happened to be inspired by the same source. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 12:05:28
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Still Galaeron truly destroyed the first wulgreth but could not kill the second one since the Karsestone is now in the possession of Shar.
What do you think of a lich who wants a bit of romance? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 14:40:11
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| Re: the two Wulgreths -- The answer is simply this:- Slade's references to Wulgreth in the Netheril boxed set, seemingly ignored the references to Wulgreth in FR5 The Savage Frontier. Eric Boyd discussed this informally with a few Realms writers whereupon it was agreed that there would be two Wulgreths which was then canonised in Troy Denning's "Shade" novels and then in subsequent products like Lost Empires of Faerūn. It was the simplest and neatest option available and a stark lesson in the damage caused by 'writing in a vacuum.' |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 15:13:56
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It seems like a lost opportunity to me. Unintentional and accidental canon is sometimes very provident.
Wulgreth-1 may have undergone some fundamental transformation into Wulgreth-2, and what fantastic circumstance could have caused such a thing? Was he cloned or driven insane in some lichy ritual gone awry? A curse or punishment or awful price or service to a higher order?
Or perhaps (as I hinted above), Wulgreth-2 assumed/pretended the identity of Wulgreth-1 to gain access to ancient magics and powers? Is he truly an imposter squatting on a lich's reputation and magical hoard? A way to bypass wards of identification? A dragon or fiend or doppleganger? A guardian construct or elaborate decoy left on autopilot? A sentient quasi-Wulgreth echo created by a malfunctioning phylactery or the memories and dreams of sleeping Karsus? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 17 May 2012 15:19:18 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 16:42:32
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Agreed.
I still think they should be connected somehow, otherwise the number of coincidences is just too large to ignore.
Perhaps it would be possible to blame the Karse stone itself?
If we use what I wrote earlier, maybe we can even spin it a little better - that Wulgreth1 was NOT Wulgreth during the Hellgate Keep affair, but assumed that mantle later. This could be blamed on the original Wulgreth's influence (as I theorized earlier), or it could be there was some lingering 'taint' in the Karse stone itself.
Think about it - Wulgreth1 never cast a lich-ritual; it was an instantaneous transformation caused by Karsus. Ergo, Karsus himself could have acted as a phylactory for Wulgreth1 (in a strange, wild-magic sort of way), and when Wulgreth2 - who could have been known by another name - placed his own soul within the Karse-Stone, the memories and and what-not got jumbled-up. This was the byproduct of wild-magic, and two different liches placing their life forces in one object.
The reason why we have tales of 'Wulgreth' from hellgate keep is because if someone talked about Mortimer finklesilver (or whoever), no-one would know who you were talking about. Think of it like this - no-one talks about Cassius Clay, but lots of folks talk about Muhammed Ali... and they are one and the same. The second name becomes better known because thats when true fame (or infamy) sets-in.
maybe I should have posted this in the 'Create Forgotten Realms lore".
None of this would have been necessary had they just slightly modified one of the names in the RotAW trilogy - Wolgraeth or some-such would have gone a long way to smooth the edges. Or better yet, someone had actually caught the mistake in Slade's work (its as if no-one bothered to read it before it went to print).
On the other hand, if they reboot the Realms from the beginning, they can fix all of this stuff. 
Imagine a Slade-free Netheril.... {heavy sigh}
Maybe we'll get a peak at Ed's version in Elminster's Realms. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 May 2012 15:22:00 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 17 May 2012 : 18:12:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
None of this would have been necessary had they just slightly modified one of the names in the RotAW trilogy - Wolgraeth or some-such would have gone a long way to smooth the edges.
Not from what Sage said -- there were already two Wulgreths when Denning sat down to write his novels. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 01:50:36
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| And I'll note that my info comes almost entirely from Krash, who set me straight on the whole two-Wulgreths issue back on the Wizards' boards about 4 years ago. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 02:23:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I do hope that a author writes about a lich as the main character. Maybe he could have been transformed but did not remember? then later has to find out who tranformed him?...
A relms author?
Isaac Abadin from the Morgan cycle, fits your description, with the exception that some argue he wasn' the main character. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 03:13:10
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
Why not go for life-force being attached to the term soul/spirit and animus being the energy or substance that keeps them working? I do believe that a lich, however retains its soul,mind psyche everything and the evil things they do is simply choosing to do so...
I think - maybe - that a lich's soul is its phylactory (the actual physical item is just what it is bound to).
Thus, the lich's psyche - which normally resides inside its decomposing corpse - is transferred to the phylactory with the soul when the body is destroyed. Once a new vessel is ready, the mind then enters it... but the soul remains behind; it is forever bound to the phylactory.
Just my take is all - I prefer that all undead are souless, which is why they are naturally evil (they are an abomination against the natural order). However, there are items - like helms of alignment reversal - that can overcome the evil, so I have to figure-out whats going on there (a vampire with a soul?) The idea that something without a soul can be 'good' rubs me the wrong way. Perhaps a new soul can be 'born' into a being, under extreme circumstances? (since we have redeemed demons & devils as well).
Like I said, still a WIP in the earliest stages.
Baelnorn are easy - the High Magic that creates them removes their soul (creating the Baelnorn form), but then re-attaches it. Ergo, its phylactory resides inside of it, so it isn't as easily corrupted as a lich or other intelligent undead.
Hmmmmmm... maybe its a matter of proximity... {we need a chin-rubbing smiley}
"And the nightchildren, called spider folk in the east and vampires in the west, are creatures on the cusp of soullessness. All that remains is the tinyest of sparks, like embers of a dieing flame, not wholly gone, but not entirely there is their soul. Through the draining of human life do they further dam themselves, and through seeking of salvation can they revive it." (Cush Adylen, 1926. 101).
Thus, one can have a good vampire, especially given that omost folklore has it that they don't choose the fate. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 03:23:21
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(In response to several posts)
what peasant man would tell a half rotted woman with glowing eyes "no, go away".
I had a character that would, but he was, well
blind. I didnt create him, just played him, and the party liked him so much that they kept wanting him to come back. Was even going to make him a party member in Water Deep, but enough of that trip down memory lain.
In road of the Patriarch, the Dragon sisters make it sound as though one can have a phylactery while still living. It would make sense that one would build the thing before dieing, but based on their conversation, which I shall admit, doesnt seem to follow mechanics exactly, that one can build one at any time, then choose to activate it at any time.
Based on this, and other comments made both here and elsewhere, the following conclusion seems to form: given that phylactory, differ depending upon the process and time/ energy put into them, the response that such an item would have to a undeath to life spell would have would depend on the character of the item in question. More complex, pain staking ones would probably remain, where ones that were quickly crafted, or where less time and energy was placed into their creation would not. I also think that whether the person is willing or not at the point of their conversion should have some impact.
Of course, Im against the whole, forcing an individual to alignment without actions supporting it. Forced undeath shouldnt have the same impact as desired undeath. Of course, it makes it easier in a lot of ways, if things are all stereotyped in that manner.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 18 May 2012 : 13:58:52
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In RAS anthology there was a story he wrote about Zhengyi in which the Witch King created phylacteries for dragons who were not dead yet but merely awaiting their souls. Thus transformation into a lich in this case was something of a lure for them and I suppose a contingency. He did present a phylactery for Urshula the dracolich in the sellsword trilogy the final two books anyway and he did say the gem was attuned to Urshula and Urshula alone.
I would of course humbly ask fellow members of Candlekeep what they think of my earlier post,what do you think of a lich who wants a bit of romance? |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 03:24:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Why two Wulgreths when one would suffice? Unless the second Wulgreth assumed the identity of the first for whatever (magical?) reasons.
No. Didn't Troy admit he didn't know of the other Wulgreth (of Ascalhorn) until many scribes asked him about it? |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 03:27:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Xar Zarath
I would of course humbly ask fellow members of Candlekeep what they think of my earlier post,what do you think of a lich who wants a bit of romance?
Unlikely. Liches' emotions are vestiges of their human feelings---mere echoes. The only emotion they still possess in abundance is anger. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 07:42:52
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quote:
Dennis
quote:
Xar Zarath
I would of course humbly ask fellow members of Candlekeep what they think of my earlier post,what do you think of a lich who wants a bit of romance?
Unlikely. Liches' emotions are vestiges of their human feelings---mere echoes. The only emotion they still possess in abundance is anger.
I disagree - liches in canon have demonstrated far more emotional range than mere anger. I need only name your favourite lich, Szass Tam, as a singular example Dennis.
I personally think liches still possess the full palette of emotions they did in life, but their expression is limited to more muted tones ... they are still capable of love, hate, joy, sadness, anger, and all the rest ... they are just not as quickly or blindly impelled by their emotional motives. I couldn't say whether this is a sort of detachment caused by their unliving-phylactery or by the detachments and sophistications they gain from living like hermits for centuries at a time.
Perhaps "newer" liches, immortal (so far) for less than a single human lifespan, have more of a "youthful" outlook and enthusiasm for emotional contact? Again, Szass Tam might serve as a fine example: he's only a few centuries old and only the events associated with his (failed) Dread Ring Ritual forced him to "grow up", to finally divest himself of his "immature" fixations, to no longer waste his time pretending he is alive or interacting with the living on their terms.
Having said all that - I suspect that the psyche of a lich is no longer quite human. It is "reprogrammed" to some extent, having a manic superhuman passion and focus towards magic. I imagine it is very easy for a lich to experience the euphoric infatuation of love, along with any other "human" emotion or attachment, when accomplishing magical workings of memorable significance. Liches are far more tolerant of things like, say, being physically and mentally violated by a Cthulhu-like abomination so they might obtain access to "forbidden" arcana ... exactly the sort of experiences which would drive a living human mad. I am of the opinion that liches are sustained through constant exposure to (new) magic, much as vampires are sustained through the blood of the living ... and so these undead eventually develop emotional templates which ensure they can access the source of their sustenance, possibly at the cost of all other passions.
Liches were invariably once humans possessing genius or supragenius intelligence. Even if they no longer have the capacity to experience living emotion, they likely do retain their memories of the experience and certainly can choose to pretend they still have these emotions to fool the living. They might even fool themselves, they might still have emotional habits (along with physical habits such as poor posture or a limp, or psychic habits like a nail-biting neurosis or nervous laugh) which are no longer necessary in their lich state ... they might be aware or unaware that they show these echoes of life.
Could a lich fall in love a living human? I don't know, but I doubt it. Not unless the lich fell in love with the human's possession of unique and remarkable magic. I could easily imagine a lich falling in love with Shandril Shessair, or more precisely, with Shandril's natural ability to wield spellfire. Love and magic might be as difficult for a "young" lich to separate as love and sex are for a living young man. I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn that Alustriel had dalliances with dashing Netherese liches in the past.
Could a lich pretend to be in love? Absolutely. Liches have been known (outside of Realms canon, at least) to maintain the illusion of life - fooling their wives, children, families, close friends, everyone they know - for an entire lifetime, for any number of entire lifetimes. Perhaps they do retain all the capacities they had in life, perhaps they reinforce the deception through magical compulsions, perhaps they are not entirely successful and some hint of their true condition always becomes evident to those who want to perceive the truth. |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 19 May 2012 08:23:08 |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 11:34:02
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Would be interesting though is to see if the deception would become reflective upon the litch in question. The state of mental and emotional confusion that can come with having to carry out a prefound level of deception for a long period of time can cause one to begin to believe the deception, even though they know that the deception is in of itself a deception.
Cognitive Disadence at work.
Second, extreme intelectual persuits and it's presence doesn't exclude the presence of extremly passionate emotions, history is full of such cases rightfully enough. However, older litchs would have to form a kind of emotional ditachment as protection form all the issues that their undeath brings about. any attachment you form is going to end in you out living the being you form it with, in blunt over simplification. Even if that being was an elf, or another long lived race, one could only stand out living so many before emotional ditachment, or extreme depression set in. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 12:22:54
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| I suppose the shorter version of what I was trying to explain is that I think liches are somewhat like autistic idiot-savants. They could immediately and unconsciously grasp magical manipulations of superhuman potency and complexity, but the simple task of laughing with a friend might be a mentally-depleting simulation, little more than the epitaph of a dead emotion. |
[/Ayrik] |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 12:42:45
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| I got that. And preposed an alternative, but one that assumes that the process of undeath, which depending on the process of litchdom used independent of the basic unifying elements of the process, varyies somewhat. The end result being different upon the psychi. I also suspect that the longer that a litch lives, the more emotionally detached they become, whether this is part of the process in of itself, as you have preposed, or a protective mechanism, who can say. It's probably a little of both. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 19 May 2012 : 13:29:33
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Perhaps ultimate detachment is one of the prerequisites for evolving into a demi-lich?
Magic in the Realms has oft been described as an art fuelled as much by passion and emotion as by raw calculating intellect. Could an utterly emotionless entity be able to practice magic? Even the magical powers of the gods seems to be constrained by their emotional capacities. Or do such rules of magic really only apply to the living?
There are also liches who achieve divine station, they transcend their normal immortality to become truly eternal. Are they also constrained to view eternity through a tightly focussed emotional lens? |
[/Ayrik] |
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Dennis
Great Reader
9933 Posts |
Posted - 20 May 2012 : 01:36:18
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Liches remember their emotions they felt when they were still alive, but they were not as "strong" as before. I exaggerated on the anger part on my above post. Remember the scene when Szass Tam almost laughed it off when Malark betrayed him? A live, normal villain would have felt an overpowering wrath. |
Every beginning has an end. |
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Xar Zarath
Senior Scribe
Malaysia
552 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 05:47:58
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Maybe because he did not much care? I firmly believe that liches retain everything that they were before they achieved lichdom. They simply choose to ingnore certain emotions or with the gradual passing of time, see things in a different way. They don't need to get angry, they can just cool off because in another century or so the human that is such a pain in the undead neck will be dust in the ground...
But for liches who achieved divine status, I am not so sure about them, i mean they are undead then gain divine power and become gods? or even undead gods? Besides deities also get into emotional knots just look at the whole Tyr,and Helm thing... |
Everything ends where it begins. Period.
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 09:03:34
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It is interesting how emotions have come into play here.
I guess we have to leave behind science in this argument, and go with a much less focused line of thought...after all, all "emotions" are the result of our living bodies. Nervous system impulses, muscle memory and so on...nothing that a lich would have access to!
So I think the easiest way to picture "Lich Emotion" is that it is indeed an echo of the past. Their mind (now only living BECAUSE of magic) becomes obsessed with magic...true emotion is only the emotion of memory.
A Lich can't cry physically, though I have played a Lich that had fond memories of its childhood; though it could barely remember it, it KNEW it had a good childhood and so would NEVER hurt a child intentionally. I've had the same Lich obsess over a woman though. He still had paintings of his now long dead wife within his tower, and had a habit of talking to her...despite the fact she wasn't there. He would often mistake other women for her and treat them very nicely...just as his memory told him he had treated his wife.
I treat very old Liches as if they have Alzheimer's Syndrome after a manner. They often have flashes back to their life; but it is becoming foggy and vague to them...while at other times it will be very crisp and clear.
Only once they have essentially lost all connection to their mortal memories...tapestries in their halls have rotted to ruin, they no longer hear words familiar to them as mortals (such as family names, town names and perhaps even the kingdom they now exist in has a new name) do they start to take on a truly detached and alien mindset.
These are the dangerous Liches...almost totally inhuman and without any sign of "normal" actions. They are the pure researchers, the seekers of immortal power...well on their way to being a Demi-Lich.
Liches like Tam are not normal. They have constant interaction with the world...but by Tam's own memories, he never planned on being a Lich so very soon in his existence! He really had no choice in the matter, and had only reserved existence as a Lich as an absolutely last ditch at thwarting final death. The very reason he seeks divinity now is to attempt to halt the final end of most all liches: emptiness and loss.
Tam WANTS to remember...wants to feel and LIVE in fact I think. He doesn't like the idea of a mortal body though because that failed him before. He wants a truly immortal body...and to have that (without having someone else as his master in the outer planes!) he wants to be a god.
Sounds good to me! |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 14:57:49
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| I alwasy assumed that negative energy was that perpituated mental activity and kept the brain supplied with what was necesary for functioning. The neurons don't need ATP, as they know run completely on the negative energy. This sustains it and allows it to function as normal. Psychic imprintation upon the spirit occurs at regular intervals so that when the host body dies, most of the immediate memory of events, along with long term memory, is kept intact and then travels to the new host body, once it becomes available. This of course means positive energy can cause lasting and perminant damage to the lich's mind and memory state. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 15:31:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
None of this would have been necessary had they just slightly modified one of the names in the RotAW trilogy - Wolgraeth or some-such would have gone a long way to smooth the edges.
Not from what Sage said -- there were already two Wulgreths when Denning sat down to write his novels.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
And I'll note that my info comes almost entirely from Krash, who set me straight on the whole two-Wulgreths issue back on the Wizards' boards about 4 years ago.
Well, my point is that there was indeed an initial mistake made, and Troy Denning had a golden opportunity to fix that mistake (with a very minor retcon), but chose instead to keep the two Wulgreths in-play and run with the continuity glitch, instead of fixing it.
I'm not saying it was Mr.Denning's fault - I just think he missed a great chance to shine.
And just to set the record straight, this is the only part (thus far) of the series that grated on my nerves, much to my chagrin - I really expected to hate it. Its also the only thing I have read by him that actually felt like it is taking place in the Realms (as opposed to some generic fantasy story he just shoe-horned in).
In fact, I am liking 'shadow stuff' again because of the books - another thing I never thought possible. If 5e gets rid of it, that would be ironic (fore me). Shadow-magic is FAR MORE interesting presented in his novels then I ever felt it was in the 3e material. It is very different from Arcane magic, and mysterious... in other words, INTERESTING.
One question (which brings this closer to the topic): Are Shades still considered a form of undead? I think the 'Unliving' status used in Eberron better describes them, IMHO. And doesn't this mean that Shades can almost be considered a highly specialized form of Lich? |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 21 May 2012 15:34:35 |
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Dalor Darden
Great Reader
USA
4211 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 19:42:46
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Shades are living beings after the manner of an elemental. Essentially they take their consciousness and transfuse their being with "elemental" shadowstuff. In the game which I played Dalor Darden in, when he finally succumbed to Shar's allure and sank deep into her teachings he agreed to become a Shade. He didn't release his ability to sire children, and so wasn't in fact undead. Being a Shade (at least in 1st Edition) did however mean that you could no longer advance in character levels; but we ignored this rule because we thought it was rather silly.
As far as I can recall, Shades have never been considered a form of undead; though I have had many DMs say that they should be considered Outsiders and so subject to things like Protection from Evil hedges. My DM being one of them; but he quickly gave up on such silliness when I would simply dispel the protection!
Shades, originally, were more often other classes than Magic-User/Wizards too. |
The Old Grey Box and AD&D for me! |
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Ayrik
Great Reader
Canada
7989 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 20:26:20
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Shades basically transfer or store some part of their essential souls/selves in the Shadowfell, receiving an infusion of shadowstuff in return. This is apparently possible because the Shadowfell and the Prime are somewhat contiguous, overlapping, blurred together, closely interrelated.
The Feywild is also said to coexist within/beyond and permeate the boundaries of the Prime in a very similar fashion. Can humans (or more obviously, elves and other fey sorts) somehow blend their soulstuff with the Feywild, much as Shades have done with the Shadowfell? What would be the result of such a thing?
I would almost argue that Ravenloft is yet another overlapping sort of plane/dimension/world/place. Strahd seems to have (inadvertently) swapped his soulstuff through this plane, resulting in his special vampirism.
Sorry ... blatantly off-topic ... perhaps best to move such speculation to another scroll? |
[/Ayrik] |
Edited by - Ayrik on 21 May 2012 20:31:30 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 21 May 2012 : 20:50:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Ayrik
Shades basically transfer or store some part of their essential souls/selves in the Shadowfell, receiving an infusion of shadowstuff in return. This is apparently possible because the Shadowfell and the Prime are somewhat contiguous, overlapping, blurred together, closely interrelated.
The Feywild is also said to coexist within/beyond and permeate the boundaries of the Prime in a very similar fashion. Can humans (or more obviously, elves and other fey sorts) somehow blend their soulstuff with the Feywild, much as Shades have done with the Shadowfell? What would be the result of such a thing?
Would we call them Feyds? |
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Need to Know: The Lich
