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Originally posted by Markustay

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

@Snow and MT: Maybe Selune and Shar were among the first gods, defined by actually caring about mortals? Akin to primordials but manifesting emotion and empathy, even if one was good and the other evil?

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For Selune, perhaps... but not Shar, Shar doesn't give a rat's arse about anyone, other then how she can use them. (The one exception, strangely, being Selune... it seems Shar was jealous when her sister got 'new friends').

Perhaps Selune willingly gave up (sacrificed) her own 'primordialness' to be closer to mortals, and decided to make that decision for her sister as well? She may have had hopes Shar would embrace the 'love' side of the mortal emotional spectrum, and she instead embraced hatred and revenge.

What Shar took as an attack (the stripping of her primal power), Selune actually did out of love? She was literally hoping her sister would "see the light".

My own take: Mortals are all about their 'humanity'. Primordials were just sentient balls of power. Deities bridge that gap - they are the sheer power of primordials with humanity applied (note how Mytra/Mystryl needs to always 'upload' a human to function properly). All outsiders - including Primordials - embrace concepts (energies, matter, planes, alignments, etc). Mortals have the ability to synergize different concepts into new concepts - this is something most outsiders can do. They can take someone else's point-of-view and achieve compromise, or combine two disparate materials and create a new alloy. Outsider can't do this; they may have 'free will', but they are incapable of making unbiased decisions (some of this was covered in Prince of Lies - Oghma taught Mystra how to see things 'as a mortal does', without the biases of her portfolio).

I don't want to get all RW, but the idea is that mortals have something no cosmic being (Outsider) has - the ability to create new things from scratch. Only the 'supreme being' was able to do this, which means in a weird way, mortals frighten 'gods' - they think in ways gods (fiends, angels, etc) cannot. I think this touches on the 'Race of Destiny' concept - that some mortal race is fated to eventually inherit the position of supreme being of the universe (or save it, or whatever). Mortals are capable of doing the unexpected.

This is why deities combine the aspects of mortals and gods - they have the power and the creativity. They are the 'new blood' in the cosmic order, and the next step (evolution) in humanity.

Selune realized her and Shar were 'flawed', and in her desire to provide enlightenment to her sister, she drove her mad instead. Its all a matter of how you spin things.

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Originally posted by Gustaveren

What would be the explanation for ubtao, akadi, kossuth etc?
Seems to me, they are having an old primordial nature

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Originally posted by Markustay

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

@Snow and MT: Maybe Selune and Shar were among the first gods, defined by actually caring about mortals? Akin to primordials but manifesting emotion and empathy, even if one was good and the other evil?

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For Selune, perhaps... but not Shar, Shar doesn't give a rat's arse about anyone, other then how she can use them. (The one exception, strangely, being Selune... it seems Shar was jealous when her sister got 'new friends').

Perhaps Selune willingly gave up (sacrificed) her own 'primordialness' to be closer to mortals, and decided to make that decision for her sister as well? She may have had hopes Shar would embrace the 'love' side of the mortal emotional spectrum, and she instead embraced hatred and revenge.

What Shar took as an attack (the stripping of her primal power), Selune actually did out of love? She was literally hoping her sister would "see the light".

My own take: Mortals are all about their 'humanity'. Primordials were just sentient balls of power. Deities bridge that gap - they are the sheer power of primordials with humanity applied (note how Mytra/Mystryl needs to always 'upload' a human to function properly). All outsiders - including Primordials - embrace concepts (energies, matter, planes, alignments, etc). Mortals have the ability to synergize different concepts into new concepts - this is something most outsiders can do. They can take someone else's point-of-view and achieve compromise, or combine two disparate materials and create a new alloy. Outsider can't do this; they may have 'free will', but they are incapable of making unbiased decisions (some of this was covered in Prince of Lies - Oghma taught Mystra how to see things 'as a mortal does', without the biases of her portfolio).

I don't want to get all RW, but the idea is that mortals have something no cosmic being (Outsider) has - the ability to create new things from scratch. Only the 'supreme being' was able to do this, which means in a weird way, mortals frighten 'gods' - they think in ways gods (fiends, angels, etc) cannot. I think this touches on the 'Race of Destiny' concept - that some mortal race is fated to eventually inherit the position of supreme being of the universe (or save it, or whatever). Mortals are capable of doing the unexpected.

This is why deities combine the aspects of mortals and gods - they have the power and the creativity. They are the 'new blood' in the cosmic order, and the next step (evolution) in humanity.

Selune realized her and Shar were 'flawed', and in her desire to provide enlightenment to her sister, she drove her mad instead. Its all a matter of how you spin things.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I wonder if we're misunderstanding Shar a little bit. Yes, she seems not to care about anyone or anything, but that doesn't mean that it's not an emotional reaction. What she does is HATE, and that's something the Primordials don't do. They don't have emotions--they're more like (literal) forces of nature. Shar and Selune became gods because they had the capacity for emotion--with Selune, it was compassion, with Shar, it was the opposite, hatred.

Also, Chauntea was around at the time of the war of light and darkness, and she seems to have been just as compassionate as them. I wonder if she was a primordial being whose nature was to create life (if MT is correct, the only such being to have that capacity), and that process naturally awoke empathy in her, which she then transferred to the sisters Shar and Selune. Henceforth, they were able to create things, because they could now feel for and sympathize with other beings.

I say "became" gods, but that sort of raises the question of what they were before, or where they came from. Maybe they were originally primordials (or the scions of primordials) but developed a capacity for empathy.

It's also possible that Shar is NOT a god at all, but rather still a primordial, incapable of empathizing and thus learning to create.

Cheers

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Originally posted by Irennan


Yes, I agree with this.
It is hard to say whether Shar is a primordial or a deity. Her ultimate goal is the return of Toril to the absolute nothing that it was before its creation, particularly before life was infused in it, and she is associated with entropy -- all of this looks very much like something a primordial would do. On the other hand she is the Lady of Loss, offering illusory relief from the pain from losses through hatred and resentment, within the embrace of her shadows. So, she is not inert to emotions (some of them) and this points against her being a primordial.

If they keep the concept of primordial around in 5e, I'd like to see this kind of matter investigated a bit(I understand -and like- that they're going to make deities and the likes less interventionist, but that shouldn't deny the possibility of some lore concerning them directly to come out from time to time).

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Originally posted by Irennan

Well, if Shar felt the pollution of her status, and hoped for it to return as it was before, that would mean that she isn't far from some aspects of mortal thinking i.e. a deity. As you said, it is kinda self defeating, because the shift was brought by her feeling some emotions, and feeling a desire (more emotions) for the transition to be undone would just make this impossible.

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Originally posted by Gustaveren

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Originally posted by Irennan

Well, if Shar felt the pollution of her status, and hoped for it to return as it was before, that would mean that she isn't far from some aspects of mortal thinking i.e. a deity. As you said, it is kinda self defeating, because the shift was brought by her feeling some emotions, and feeling a desire (more emotions) for the transition to be undone would just make this impossible.

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It would also be a selfdefeating poison wound since it is her nature to destoy hope, but that poison wound would probably make her feel the loss of primordieness even more intensely and that would increase her hate and resolve to destoy the world in the hope she could return to pure primordieness

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Originally posted by Shemmy
Do we know yet if they're going to continue using the 4e PoL idea of Primordials that got inserted into FR? From a cosmology perspective and prior lore on the topic, it's difficult to support that while also supporting prior material (not impossible, but very awkward).

The more they move away from the changes to various planar concepts that happened in 4e (all of a sudden primordials, the archon retcon, tiefling changes, eladrin retcon, etc) even if not outright abandoning them, the happier I'll be with 5e FR (5e in general I have no problem overtly supporting multiple things, though some I vastly prefer over others).

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Originally posted by Gustaveren

I actually like this explanation since it is no longer a question of evil for evil's sake, but instead emotional reasons associated with loss and hate and it gives a clue to a weakness there might be exploited by clever players to defeat shar.
(Shar hates hope and have a deep emotional wish for destroying all hope)

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Originally posted by Markustay


In most cases, only ascended mortals can become divinities, but in very, very rare cases, the 'spark' can be added to an existing cosmic entity (Outsider). This is how even fiends can become repentant - something happens, and they 'grow a soul'. At that moment, they become something greater then the celestials they have been battling (who are good merely because they are programmed that way, not by choice). This, of course, is not something most fiends would want (even after it occurred). Think about the ending of the first Ghost Rider movie - Blackheart only became vulnerable after he absorbed all that soul-energy.

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Originally posted by Irennan


Also, about the primordial-deity matter: once someone starts feeling, it's hard to want to return to be inert (unless all he/she feels is pain), because every being who feels something has as its ultimate goal happiness, which is an emotional status and for this reason it can't be achieved with the apathy of primordial-ness.

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Shar does not want happiness
Shar most likely feel great pain since she feels the loss of primordialness. Emotions did after all bring radiance / light into her state of darkness and thereby create a state of shadows instead of a state of pure darkness

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Originally posted by Markustay

Look at it this way - most folks are 'level 1'. A fiend can eat a few of those, and its like us eating hotdogs - just some tasty snacks (and the emotions/memories can act like 'toppings'). You eat too many hotdogs, you make yourself sick.

Putting this into some kind of rules-framework, lets say a demon can 'eat' its own level in mortal soul levels per day safely. A Type VI demon can eat six peasants, three level two guardsmen, or one level 6 adventurer (or any other combination) without getting 'indigestion'. Does 3e even have Fiend type/levels anymore? If not, threat (CR) levels can be used.

For each level 'consumed' after that, a fiend has a cumulative (10 - Fiend Type)% chance of the soul energy spontaneously forming a new soul inside the fiend. This would sicken (weaken) the fiend, and also make him available as 'prey' to other fiends. Unless they find a way to hide-out on the Prime Material, such fiends would not last long in the Outer Planes. They'd also be looking to shed their new-found humanity as fast as possible (unless they embrace it, which would be uber-rare, but it has happened).

This could be applied to other Outsiders as well, including deities. However, the assumption is that a deity already has some of this 'soul stuff' of its own, so what occurs is that they incur a possibility of being overwhelmed by it (no rules - let DMs/writers figure out what that entails). This is why deities can only tap into a tiny portion of the soul energy available to them by their faithful, lest they be 'changed' by their beliefs. On the other hand, sacrifice is a very safe way to gain this energy - once the soul is separated from its mortal vessel, it is 'purified' (the mind goes to the astral, remember?) and 'easier to digest' (its not contaminated with preconceptions about stuff).

Its really hard to wrap any hard rules around this kind of stuff - its more like a very loose flowchart of how cosmic energy gets shifted around and used. In other words, just a 'rule of thumb'.

Most primordials do not feel a need for this - for organized religions - because they have vast power available to them already. They tap directly into the maelstrom for energy and matter, and most specialize in some form, making them even more powerful.

As for elemental lords (primordials), I don't think they access mortal power directly. They are too powerful in their own right - I think they form pacts with 'lesser beings' and share this energy. For instance, Kossuth isn't a primordial - he is an elemental god who answers to the real elemental lord. He is the deity of fire, whereas the primoridal represents thermal energy unrestrained. The same would go for the others - the elemental gods we know in FR are FR-specific; they are the local caretakers of the elemental portfolios. For all we know, the elemental lords (Archomentals) are nothing more then the highest tier of Jinn (genies). They've attained that 'spark', but still answer to the primordials.

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Shar does not want happiness
Shar most likely feel great pain since she feels the loss of primordialness. Emotions did after all bring radiance / light into her state of darkness and thereby create a state of shadows instead of a state of pure darkness

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By happiness I mean the feeling that springs from a status of well-being, whatever causes it. Everyone who is able to feel wants that, because it is automatically associated with its well being, and who doesn't wish to be well is self-destructive.

So Shar started wanting happiness as soon as she started feeling (i.e. as soon as she started being a deity), and this is what lead me questioning her wish to go back to her primordial-ness.

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Well, she is not happy in her current state since the radiance in her hearth is a wound there has reduced darkness to shadows. It brings great pain and loss, she hopes to get rid of it by returning the world to nothingness, but hope is also poison to her nature, that is, she feels more and more hate upon the poison in her system (light, emotions)

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Originally posted by Shemmy

Do we know yet if they're going to continue using the 4e PoL idea of Primordials that got inserted into FR? From a cosmology perspective and prior lore on the topic, it's difficult to support that while also supporting prior material (not impossible, but very awkward).

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The more they move away from the changes to various planar concepts that happened in 4e (all of a sudden primordials, the archon retcon, tiefling changes, eladrin retcon, etc) even if not outright abandoning them, the happier I'll be with 5e FR (5e in general I have no problem overtly supporting multiple things, though some I vastly prefer over others).

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Originally posted by Irennan

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

I wonder if we're misunderstanding Shar a little bit. Yes, she seems not to care about anyone or anything, but that doesn't mean that it's not an emotional reaction. What she does is HATE, and that's something the Primordials don't do. They don't have emotions--they're more like (literal) forces of nature. Shar and Selune became gods because they had the capacity for emotion--with Selune, it was compassion, with Shar, it was the opposite, hatred.

Also, Chauntea was around at the time of the war of light and darkness, and she seems to have been just as compassionate as them. I wonder if she was a primordial being whose nature was to create life (if MT is correct, the only such being to have that capacity), and that process naturally awoke empathy in her, which she then transferred to the sisters Shar and Selune. Henceforth, they were able to create things, because they could now feel for and sympathize with other beings.

I say "became" gods, but that sort of raises the question of what they were before, or where they came from. Maybe they were originally primordials (or the scions of primordials) but developed a capacity for empathy.

It's also possible that Shar is NOT a god at all, but rather still a primordial, incapable of empathizing and thus learning to create.

Cheers

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Yes, I agree with this.
It is hard to say whether Shar is a primordial or a deity. Her ultimate goal is the return of Toril to the absolute nothing that it was before its creation, particularly before life was infused in it, and she is associated with entropy -- all of this looks very much like something a primordial would do. On the other hand she is the Lady of Loss, offering illusory relief from the pain from losses through hatred and resentment, within the embrace of her shadows. So, she is not inert to emotions (some of them) and this points against her being a primordial.

If they keep the concept of primordial around in 5e, I'd like to see this kind of matter investigated a bit(I understand -and like- that they're going to make deities and the likes less interventionist, but that shouldn't deny the possibility of some lore concerning them directly to come out from time to time).

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Well, we do know that all prior canon is still canon, so yes, primordials still exist as part of the cosmology. That said, the Sundering is going to drive the worlds back apart and the primordials will once again be pushed out of Toril (with some exceptions, no doubt).

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Well, we do know that all prior canon is still canon, so yes, primordials still exist as part of the cosmology. That said, the Sundering is going to drive the worlds back apart and the primordials will once again be pushed out of Toril (with some exceptions, no doubt).

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If all prior lore is canon, how is conflicting prior lore going to be reconciled? The Great Wheel/Great Tree/whatever for 4E is a great example -- three cosmologies. How will that be straightened out?

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Originally posted by Gustaveren


could the existence and stability of the weave define the cosmology?

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Originally posted by Gustaveren

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Originally posted by Gustaveren


could the existence and stability of the weave define the cosmology?

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I am comparing to a material; it can have different states (solid, liquid, gas) depending upon the value of properties like temperature and pressure

Maybe, the cosmology can have different states (great tree, great wheel, whatever) depending upon the value of weave properties like it's strength, stability, health (presence or lack of wild magic, deadmagic, spell scars,...),...

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Originally posted by Wooly Rupert

If all prior lore is canon, how is conflicting prior lore going to be reconciled? The Great Wheel/Great Tree/whatever for 4E is a great example -- three cosmologies. How will that be straightened out?

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