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Originally posted by Gustaveren

It is another reason to not like 5e FR
All the house ruling you will have to do in order to get a working campaign world it will be fun for old fans to play in

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie


@Eilistraee out of Menzo book:

As I see it, there's actually some reason to be happy Eilistraee and Vhaeraun didn't make it into the Menzo book. Menzoberranzan is supposed to be an era-neutral book, and listing the deities as archfey isn't strictly accurate, since they're only archfey during a particular period in the city's history. Only Lolth is an enduring god for the drow through all eras of the city's history. It would be weird in a campaign set in 1360, for instance, it would be weird to run E&V as archfey when at that point, canonically, they are full-fledged gods.

Also, V&E are extremely significant to the drow, but they aren't really that big a deal to Menzoberranzan specifically. There's a whole ocean of depth to be added by using them in a Menzo game, but from a game designer standpoint (and looking at space concerns) I can see why WotC would hesitate to put them in the book.

V&E should definitely make an appearance in a web enhancement. I would be very happy to see the original piece from the Menzo book (which I've read) published through DDI or just for free on the WotC website.

Cheers

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
[...]

@Irennan: I don't speak for WotC and I don't know the reasons behind their decisions. I absolutely agree that this piece should show up as a web enhancement or a DDI article, as I myself have read it and think it's a great, valuable thing. So godspeed to you, sir!

Cheers

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Originally posted by Razz

Ok, how exactly is WotC going to release new mechanics then? Let's remember that despite how much lore we want, it's still a game and some of us enjoy a few new FR spells or feats or a prestige class now and then, etc. How is that supposed to work for all editions of play? Especially campaign specific mechanics (Circle Magic or Spellscars...whih I would like to see a 3e version of)

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Originally posted by Razz

Ok, how exactly is WotC going to release new mechanics then? Let's remember that despite how much lore we want, it's still a game and some of us enjoy a few new FR spells or feats or a prestige class now and then, etc. How is that supposed to work for all editions of play? Especially campaign specific mechanics (Circle Magic or Spellscars...whih I would like to see a 3e version of)

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Originally posted by Venger

I wrote a small novel and, damn it, I will not see it buried under an off-topic pseudo flame war, so I'm going to go ahead and take a few minutes out of my birthday and repost my last few posts here. :P

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[quote]I definitely would be interested in hearing your ideas. That's the whole point of this thread!

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Sure thing. Let’s see…

1) Mystra: She absolutely has to come back. I’m glad to hear that Ed’s working on it. My hope, though, would be for it to be the Midnight personality. I was a bit appalled by that plot point not just because they killed off Mystra, the flagship character of the setting, but that it was done in that manner. The whole scenario reeked of a bad Lifetime movie in which a man obsessed with a woman breaks into her home and murders her. It seems cheap and it made Mystra seem weak and pathetic as she was essentially butchered by her stalker. Mystra/Midnight coming back and paying Cyric back in kind would be nice (Though that doesn’t mean I want Cyric dead. I can’t stand the little turd but he still does make a pretty good setting villain). I'd like to see her rebuild Dweomerheart, reconstitute the Weave and either bring Azuth back along with her, or elevate a mortal to take his place as an Exarch in her service. Maybe Elminster, the Simbul, or even Alustriel can fill the role?

(That’s another one that gets me, killing Alustriel. She’s not a big time adventurer, but a city ruler. She’s about as innocuous an NPS as you can get, so I don’t see why they felt they had to kill her to appease Forgotten Realms haters.)

2) Helm: If you’re working on his return, then that’d be great, too. I look forward to seeing him take his place in Celestia in Torm’s service.

3) Nobanion: This is coming out of left field I know, but whatever happened to this guy? I was just reminded of him while writing the above. I wouldn’t mind seeing him also enter into Torm’s service and move to Celestia. He seems like he’d be a great fit there. The way I’d like to see the organization of Celestia is as follows: Torm, Bahamut, and Ilmater forming the Triad, with Torm (Greater God) as the top point and Bahamut and Ilmater (Gods) as the two bottom points, while Helm and Nobanion are the sword and standard of Torm.

Now if only Celestia wasn’t such a sausage fest. Damn that Siamorphe…

4) Lathander: Here’s why I think combining him with Amaunator is silly. The idea is that there’s a Sun God and he goes through different phases, and we’ve seen those phases being Dawn, Midday, and Dusk. And since Lathander and Amaunator didn’t coexist, then they must be the same, but in a different phase. The problem with that is that neither of them have ever been a God of Dusk. That was Myrkul, and he and Lathander coexisted for a long time just fine. The argument would make sense if he was all three, but he’s not. He’s two phases while some other guy was the third. So he bounces back and forth between God of Dawn and God of Midday? That doesn’t make much sense at all. On top of which they’re both completely different personalities. So in my opinion, Lathander should be brought back as a separate god. In addition…

5) Myrkul: Myrkul should be brought back, too. He’ll no longer be God of the Dead but he can still reclaim the rest of his Portfolios of Autumn, Corruption, Decay, Dusk, Exhaustion, Old Age, Parasites, and Wasting. He can also claim Velsharoon’s old Portfolios of Necromancy and Undeath now that that poor bastard’s bitten the dust. Myrkul’s an interesting personality and frankly I’ve missed him all these years and I’d love to see his triumphant return and have him build a new Castle of Bones somewhere out in the Astral Sea. I’m also linking him up to Lathander above because I think that they, along with Amaunator, can create an interesting dynamic. Sun gods have been done to death, and having a generic “sun god” for the setting isn’t doing the Forgotten Realms any favors, but if you were to have three sun gods, each of which represents a different phase of the sun, dawn, midday, and dusk? Think of what each means, and what each god would represent.

Lathander is the Dawnbringer, the sun that rises in the morning, which means that he represents new beginnings, a casting off of the past, and constant change and evolution. He’s the ever-changing universe and the newborn star blazing out in the black. Amaunator is the God of Midday, and represents stability, stagnancy, and the status quo. He’s a sun in the full power of its life, set in its ways. Myrkul is the Lord of Dusk and represents the forces of entropy, decay, and the end of all things. He’s the lifeless star within a universe which grows ever colder. Each of those, Dawn, Midday and Dusk represent something wholly different, and I think the Forgotten Realms could benefit from having a trio of gods who represent each and are constantly in opposition to each other because of their natures.

6) Mask: His return’s a must. And let him have the Portfolio of Intrigue, already. Given what I’ve read the past few days about the circumstances of his death, he definitely deserves it, especially since he’s much better at it than Cyric. Has Cyric ever gotten away with any of his intrigues? And should Myrkul be brought back I’m sure he’d be willing to let Mask have a piece of his domain where he can hang his hat in and be safe from both Cyric and Shar.

7) Bhaal: This one’s another personal wish of mine. I’ve always loved “the Dead Three”, and Bane’s already back, so how about giving Realms fans back the full set? Make him an Exarch at least in service to Myrkul if he ever comes back, or Bane.

8) Eilistraee & Vhaeraun: I understand the argument about wanting to get the Drow back to their roots, but the problem with that is that getting them back to their roots is also synonymous with making them a one-note caricature. Eliminating these two gods eliminated all the character growth which the Drow as a race had experienced. There’re plenty of ways to make the Drow more villainous, but at the same time, that doesn’t mean that the variety of portrayals which they had should be obliterated. So personally I’d really like to see both Eilistraee and Vhaeraun return.

Incidentally, isn’t 1484 The Year of the Awakened Sleepers? If one wants to claim that the ‘dead’ gods are sleeping, then that might be a good year to bring them back.

9) Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarim: I’d like to see these go back to the way they were and with Manshoon at the helm. It’d be nice if Manshoon were to reassert control of the Zhentarim in a Godfather style St. Valentine’s Day Massacre scenario in which he eliminates all potential rivals to the Zhentarim and remakes them into the wizard led army/secret organization for advancing his interests and Zhentil Keep’s interests around the world, and uses them to retake and rebuild Zhentil Keep. An alliance between a rebuilt Zhentil Keep, the Dalelands, Myth Drannor, and Cormyr against Netheril would also be pretty nice. Like the Soviet Union in the Allies versus the Axis. Team up with an evil to fight against an even greater evil. That’d open up a ton of intrigue as they need Zhentil Keep, but at the same time they can’t trust them, particularly Manshoon.

10) Elturgard: Just a bugaboo I had after reading the book, but it’d be nice to see Elturgard explicitly stated as being dedicated to Amaunator. Torm doesn’t make sense at all given all the other circumstances of that country.

11) Halruaa & Lantan: Was there ever an explanation for why the highly magical nation of Halruaa was torched to the ground by the Spellplague while the highly magical nation of Netheril escaped its effects unscathed? Anyway…

I like the idea of the Halruaan’s rescuing the Lantanese and the two nations joining forces to found a new country. It’s possible that Halruaan skyships came across Lantan just as disaster was striking them and were able to rescue a large portion of their population. The alliance between the survivors of Halruaa and Lantan could also be the origin of Warforged in the Forgotten Realms. They would’ve needed an army to survive, and with their depleted populations, the only option they’d have would be to manufacture one. The Lantanese already sort of had this ability in 3E with the Techsmiths able to create Gondsmen. Combining their expertise with that of the incredible magical knowledge possessed by the Halruaan’s that should give them what they need to be able to come up with Warforged, which is what their standing army could currently consist of.

As for their current location, your guess is as good as mine. It’s been 100 years, though, so they still shouldn’t be wandering Faerun like refugees a la Battlestar Galactica. They should’ve already found somewhere to call home and already be settled there. After all, the ancestors of the Five Companies may not be the only Halruaan’s who escaped the devastation of Halruaa. To continue the Battlestar Galactica analogy, maybe the Five Companies were the Battlestar Pegasus equivalents while there were another group of Halruaan survivors who were the Battlestar Galactica and Colonial fleet equivalents, and they were the ones who saved the Lantanese and settled elsewhere?

And yes, I’d love to read a novel about that.

12) Mulhorand & Unther: Mulhorand was fantastic and characterful and I’m dumbfounded that the developers ever thought it’d be a good idea to get rid of it. It was also on the cusp of conflict with all its neighbors in 3E, including Thay, and that was suddenly swept away with the advent of 4E? Like the commenter on that video link I posted above said, the game opportunities not only narrowed as a result, but flattened as the conflict between Mulhorand and the Red Wizards never occurred with Mulhorand being whisked away while the Red Wizards were all turned into undead loyal to Szass Tam. As for what’s going on with Abeir, I have to be honest and say that I don’t particularly care. That’s a whole other campaign world, and as a fan of the Forgotten Realms, it’s Faerun and its immediate environs which interest me.

So in short, I’d like to see Mulhorand return, and the seeds of that possibility are right there in the 4E FRCG. Nezram the Worldwalker is a wizard who’s A) experienced at planar travel, B) loves his country, and C) hates the High Imaskari to pieces. It shouldn’t be too much trouble for him to be able to track down Abeir and what happened to Mulhorand and its people. So he has the ability to provide planar travel and can work the necessary magic to bring Mulhorand back. There’s also the Mulhorandi gods themselves, who’ve long shown an interest in looking after and protecting the Mulhorandi people. They’re not just going to take this disaster which has hit their people lying down, particularly if the Mulhorandi people want to go back home (and after being there for four thousand years, Toril is their home). Nevermind how the people might react once they find out that the Imaskari have moved into their lands (Like Nezram, they’ll probably also believe that it was an Imaskari plot, so they’ll definitely want some payback). So while Nezram can provide the means for them to go home, the Mulhorandi gods and their legions of clerics can provide the power to make that transition possible.

So between Nezram and whatever other means he discovered should he have found that race of serpent men he was looking for, the Mulhorandi gods, as well as anything the Mulhorandi might have found on Abeir, it's possible they could be able to bring their civilization back to Faerun, with all the peoples from both Unther and Mulhorand. Five million pissed off Mulhorandi (and possibly an army of those serpent people that Nezram was looking for) descend on the Imaskari and drive them down into Deep Imaskar, with High Imaskar perhaps able to maintain a small portion of land while the Mulhorandi reconquer most of the rest. The Dragonborn in Tymanther are able to repel the Mulhorandi presence within their borders but are left with a couple million Untherite refugees begging for asylum and safety from the Mulhorandi. The end result is that Mulhorand is back and is in a cold war state with both Deep Imaskar beneath its feet (and possibly what's left of High Imaskar on the surface) and Tymanther to its west, which is left reeling after having suddenly absorbed millions of refugees.

13) Luiren: I’d like to see those plucky little Halflings get a new nation. Just because Halflings are nomads in the core setting that doesn’t mean the same has to hold true in Forgotten Realms. The little blighters deserve to have a new homeland.

14) Thay: It’d be nice if WotC were to pull back from talking about how the undead ridiculously outnumber the living. Szass Tam isn’t an idiot. You need living people to create new undead, and if most of your people are already undead then your numbers can only go down as your undead servants are destroyed and you don’t have enough living people to replace them. Moreover, one of the things that made Thay interesting was their variety in magical power, with each Zulkir representing a different school of magic. You might thwart the plans of a Red Wizard of Necromancy in one adventure, in which you confront his undead minions, but in another adventure you might deal with the illusory power of an Illusionist Red Wizard. That variety was nice, as was the power play between the various Zulkir’s. What’s not interesting is having all the Zulkir’s engage in necromancy, with Szass Tam the undisputed ruler of them all.

So my preference would be for Thay to go back to being more like it was. Zulkir’s who represent different magical disciplines, and each of which is a potential threat to Szass Tam, and a Thayvan population in which the living constitute the majority. I want to see the Red Wizards as an organization reemerge, with Mulan children being taken in and trained as Red Wizards. And should Mulhorand come back then a couple hundred thousand of them could end up going over to Thay to help repopulate the living Mulan population. Either way, Thay as an Icecrown equivalent with Szass Tam in the role of the Lich King is just not a good idea. Making the Red Wizards all about necromancy all the time is just plain boring.

As for their magical diversity, I have no idea how to handle that. It really depends on the magical rules in 5E. Will schools of magic come back? If they do then the answer is easy, as you could go back to how it was with a Zulkir for Necromancy, Illusion, Conjuration, etc. But if not, then there’re other options which could potentially be pursued. Maybe the Red Wizards are changed to account for other magical traditions beyond Wizard magic? Perhaps you can have a Zulkir who represents Swordmages, another who represents Warlocks, and one who represents Sorcerers? Then there’s the Zulkir of Wizards, the Zulkir of Necromancers (Szass Tam), and Zulkir’s representing any other magical traditions which exist in D&D 5E. That’s a possibility, although I’d prefer the traditional schools of magic (One way to handle that could potentially be through themes. Maybe a Forgotten Realms supplement could include "Illusionist", "Conjuerer", "Enchanter" themes which can be applied to Wizards to give them more of a specialist wizard flavor, thus allowing for Red Wizards as they were to return in some way).

So yeah, it’d be nice if Thay were to be put back on track to what it was. And if Mulhorand were to reappear, I’d love to see an escalation of conflict between the two, which would pit Thay’s magical might against Mulhorand’s divinely fueled power. I want to see a battle in which Wizards, Necromancers, and Swordmages duke it out with Clerics, Invokers, and Avengers.

15) Villains: I'm tired of all Shades, all the time. There should be an attempt to elevate all the villains of the Realms equally, instead of making everything about Netheril, the Shades, and Shar. Make Thay a major threat again, bring back Zhentil Keep and the Zhentarim and make them a major threat again, and so on. Put lots of emphasis on the activities of all the major evil gods, Shar, Cyric, Bane, Lolth, Asmodeus, Gruumsh, and hopefully Myrkul. The more the merrier because variety is what makes things interesting. The Shar Show is boring. The Shar, Bane, Cyric, Myrkul, Asmodeus, Gruumsh, & Lolth Show, however, would be a damn fine show to watch. Make them and their plots constant threats which have to be dealt with at all times, along with those threats posed by the Red Wizards, Netheril, the Cult of the Dragon, and more, and it'd be a very interesting setting.

16) Abeir: …can go pound sand. No interest in seeing it explored.

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Originally posted by Gustaveren

I assume, it will only be a minority of FR players there will play with D&D e4 or e5 rules.
The majority will most likely stick to 3.x or pathfinder.

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

Yes, I suspect all the mechanics WotC puts out will be 5e, but the lore will be timeless.

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Originally posted by Gustaveren

I assume, it will only be a minority of FR players there will play with D&D e4 or e5 rules.
The majority will most likely stick to 3.x or pathfinder.

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That's a pretty huge assumption. What makes you think that?

Cheers

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Originally posted by Kris the Grey

In another post hereabouts (http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16896) I asked where I might find the details for the Blingdenstone related adventures that were run as part of the D&D Next playtest at GenCon. With a little help I tracked them down (I hadn't noticed their inclusion in the newest playtest packets!) and just reviewed them (in their rather lengthy glory).

I have to say, I was quite impressed! The adventure seems to be in keeping with the philosophy for the 5E Realms that has been articulated by Erik, others on this site, and by WoTC at Gen Con.

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Originally posted by Gustaveren

Well, the sea of fallen stars
make sure that different ruins, ship wrecks etc are uncovered but not yet explored in the territory there used to contain water

In the future would that be interesting adventure sites
In the past would it be interesting aquatic adventure sites and maybe also with some useful lore like "this was the location of this sea battle" or when huge waves hit the coast in ancient times did city xx there used to be at point a end up in the sea at point b and so forth

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

@Snow and MT: Maybe Selune and Shar were among the first gods, defined by actually caring about mortals? Akin to primordials but manifesting emotion and empathy, even if one was good and the other evil?

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