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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
 Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 22:09:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Shemmy: What "grossly conflicting canon" pieces are you talking about? That's part of the point of this thread--to identify those things and sort them out.
So give me a list. I may have already been over some of them before in one of the other (60+ page) threads, but we can go back over it as needed.
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
If all prior lore is canon, how is conflicting prior lore going to be reconciled? The Great Wheel/Great Tree/whatever for 4E is a great example -- three cosmologies. How will that be straightened out?
I feel like I've answered that question several times now, but I'll say it again:
All cosmologies are equally true. It's just a question of perception. The multiverse is beyond mortal (and in most cases even IMMORTAL) comprehension, and you can only understand it in a certain way at a certain time, based on your culture, background, and what you know about reality.
Some people comprehend the multiverse as a great wheel (which is the cosmology I believe will be the sort of "default" in DnD-Next), while some see it as a great universe-spanning world with a sky above (the Astral Sea), a molten soup below (the Elemental Chaos) and a mortal world (the Prime Material Plane) in between. Some see it as a great tree, which branches connecting the various planes.
No one know FOR SURE what form the multiverse has, only that it IS.
Cheers
 this inspires me to the following simple explanation
At some point in time was it the theory of a great wheel there was popular among FR sages, at another point in time was it the theory of a great tree there was popular
There was even some infamous events, were sages and their supporters had riotclashes during heated arguements of the nature of the planes.
I would like to hear, what is the names of those sages there are the primary advocates of the different theories for the nature of the planes
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 23:38:22
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Nothing is without a solution. Some solutions, however, are a bit more cheesy then others. I think over the past 6 or so years, we've beaten-down nearly every one of these continuity gaffs.
The Eladrin thing has definitely been covered. Even Rich Baker said "I wish they hadn't beaten it to death so much in the FRCS" (or something very close to that), and that was soon after that book was released. They had become so insistent on using the new terminology (and thats all that is), that they didn't realize how off-putting that might be.
Elves = green elves = Sylvan elves. I personally favor 'Sylvan' because when you say 'green Elves', you wind-up with silliness like 'Dark Green elves' (which aren't dark green at all). Sylvan Elves = our common, garden-variety, stereotypical elves.
Eladrin are the old 'Gray Elves', which gets confused with FR's Grey Elves (which is an insult, and actually applied to the oposite group in FR). Here I personally just prefer the Tolkien-ized 'High Elves' (who used to be very similar to the D&D Gray Elves, but less xenophobic). The term 'Eladrin' was never used in FF before 4e, except to describe a group of outsiders. The first 'Eladrin' in FR considered themselves 'Gold' and 'Silver' Elves, and when they wanted to refer to all of them together, they would use Tel-quessir - the word in their own language (this would have also included the sylvan elves, who weren't present when the Gray/Eladrin elves first crossed into Faerun).
So that parts not a retcon, it falls under the category of 'new information'. Almost since the beginning of D&D, we have divided the elves into two major branches.
The part that is a retcon is the use of the word 'Eladrin', which had a different meaning in pre-4e lore. Simple fix, really. Look at it this way - when they were in the planes, they called themselves the Eladrin (they probably called themselves lots of things - how often in our day-to-day lives do we refer to ourselves as 'humans'?) When they came to Toril, it was a 'new beginning', so they stopped using that (older) terminology and just went with the sub-group names (Moon and sun Elves). The same probably happened on numerous worlds.
The ones 'left behind' (outside the Prime Material) would have continued to use 'Eladrin', and the most powerful of these (epic tier) became famous in the planes. These are the ones we knew about in pre-4e lore. You only hear about the famous ones - no-one hears about some obscure farmer in the Outlands (who made have been an Eladrin, but folks would have just called him 'an elf').
So yes, from a meta-gaming standpoint we know thats a retcon, but in-game its just 'an expanded knowledge of the elven family tree'. We have been told numerous times to just ignore the sourcebooks on this subject - that Elves of FR are still calling themselves what they have always called themselves. Only 'new arrivals' would use the term 'Eladrin' (and some very, VERY old elven tomes).
Do we refer to ourselves as 'primates'? Of course not. knowledge of being related to something else doesn't mean people would start calling themselves something different. Those 'ancient connections' exist, but it doesn't become part of everyday speech. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Sep 2012 20:58:27 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 02:32:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
All cosmologies are equally true. It's just a question of perception. The multiverse is beyond mortal (and in most cases even IMMORTAL) comprehension, and you can only understand it in a certain way at a certain time, based on your culture, background, and what you know about reality.
Some people comprehend the multiverse as a great wheel (which is the cosmology I believe will be the sort of "default" in DnD-Next), while some see it as a great universe-spanning world with a sky above (the Astral Sea), a molten soup below (the Elemental Chaos) and a mortal world (the Prime Material Plane) in between. Some see it as a great tree, which branches connecting the various planes.
No one know FOR SURE what form the multiverse has, only that it IS.
And as Ed has long maintained, both 'cosmologies' could be seen as fallible mortal maps of the same 'place'. As he once said:-
"The Great Wheel or any other cosmology doesn’t bother me, just as avatar stats and the endless “but this god came first, or can beat that god” arguments don’t: mortal PCs can’t know the truth about the gods anyway, because every in-game source (supreme priests, avatars of the gods themselves, holy writings) they could possibly learn all this stuff from is biased. Everything. So it really is all up to the DM."
...
I've drawn so much inspiration from that small piece of Ed-lore, for my own ten-year-plus working of my own cosmology, that it has allowed me to draw from practically every piece of planar-related material ever published for the D&D game. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 14:44:49
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Exactly.
I think when dealing with the gods and cosmologies we need to get away from our information age bias of "we can/should know everything in exact detail!" Stuff about the cosmology is more a matter of opinion and debate than black and white fact. Everything is open to DM interpretation.
To address godly issues, think of how religion functions in our own world. Can you reconcile (with Wikipedia like "accuracy") the great mysteries of the various world faiths? How miracles work and the seeming contradictions in scriptures? No--that's why we have churches, where people go and discuss how these things matter to our daily lives, not how they work on a physical level. That's how faith should be in the Realms.
To address the cosmology in specific, consider the parable of the blind men and the elephant: five blind men are set upon an elephant and asked to describe it. One touches the tusks and deems it something sharp and cold like a spear. One touches its ears and deems it floppy and thin like a cape. Another feels its leg and says it's like a pillar. Another its trunk and says it's like a snake. And lastly its great flank and says it's like a boulder. All of them are correct, but none of them has the same experience as the others, because their perspective is hopelessly limited.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3821 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 15:08:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Exactly.
[...]
To address godly issues, think of how religion functions in our own world. Can you reconcile (with Wikipedia like "accuracy") the great mysteries of the various world faiths? How miracles work and the seeming contradictions in scriptures? No--that's why we have churches, where people go and discuss how these things matter to our daily lives, not how they work on a physical level. That's how faith should be in the Realms.
[...]
Honestly, I don't want 'faith' in the Realms to work like RW religion. In the Realms 'mysteries' of the divine are not really that, but simply associated with divine magic performed by priests. And I've always seen the latter more like agents of the gods on the prime than priests who stir 'faith' trying to convert people. They know what their deity stands for and work with him/her for said goal because -while there are things that they can't know- they at least are aware that he/she is there and is fighting for their common cause, not simply out of 'faith' in the uncertain.
I'm all for gods not being interventionist and for the mortals being the main players, but I'm not for them being completely shrouded in a fog of mystery (to me, the faith in the Realms is not in the identity or in the existence or less of the worshipped deity, but in his/her goal, for which clerics and followers work with their patron(ess)). |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Sep 2012 15:09:55 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 15:11:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Exactly.
I think when dealing with the gods and cosmologies we need to get away from our information age bias of "we can/should know everything in exact detail!" Stuff about the cosmology is more a matter of opinion and debate than black and white fact. Everything is open to DM interpretation.
To address godly issues, think of how religion functions in our own world. Can you reconcile (with Wikipedia like "accuracy") the great mysteries of the various world faiths? How miracles work and the seeming contradictions in scriptures? No--that's why we have churches, where people go and discuss how these things matter to our daily lives, not how they work on a physical level. That's how faith should be in the Realms.
To address the cosmology in specific, consider the parable of the blind men and the elephant: five blind men are set upon an elephant and asked to describe it. One touches the tusks and deems it something sharp and cold like a spear. One touches its ears and deems it floppy and thin like a cape. Another feels its leg and says it's like a pillar. Another its trunk and says it's like a snake. And lastly its great flank and says it's like a boulder. All of them are correct, but none of them has the same experience as the others, because their perspective is hopelessly limited.
Cheers
The one thing I'd strongly like to see taken away from 4th edition (yep, I'm giving them props for some things) is that the other planes are not infinite. I state this in reference to the outer planes specifically (as I'm not adverse to the astral, feywild and shadow actually being able to span hugely and just fluidly connect multiple prime materials... as well as the phlogiston too). I like the idea that the nine hells of Faerun are not the nine hells of GH, and thereby you can create new lords of hell... and kill them off... without it being a problem elsewhere.... and I like that these lords of hell don't just have infinite numbers of devils to throw around... their realms are finite and so are their numbers of devils. Now, maybe these outer planes can grow... and maybe a large influx of worshippers allows for such. But its best if you can actually go to the edge of the plane and thereby traverse (somehow) to somewhere else... maybe via a great tree branch, maybe a river, maybe a foggy mist that brings you to the Astral, maybe you wander into some woodlands that becomes the feywild, maybe you wander into darkness that becomes shadow, and maybe these edges vary with time. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 15:20:36
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@Irennan: I didn't mean to suggest that Realms religions should take RW religions as a blueprint for how they function. (It probably would have been more clear if I'd used actual RW examples, but that's outside the scope of Candlekeep.) And I agree that faiths in the Realms have considerably more *focus* than RW religions, and it should be that way.
I only meant to float the idea that Realms faiths have a great deal of room for divine mystery that should be allowed to be there.
@sleyvas: That's a neat concept. I don't know how D&D-Next is going to handle the cosmology (and really, you are encouraged to use your own anyway), but we'll see. Having cut my teeth on 2e Planescape, I myself lean toward the infinite planes thing, but like I said, it's just a point of view told by a mortal of limited perspective.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3821 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 15:29:18
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Irennan: I didn't mean to suggest that Realms religions should take RW religions as a blueprint for how they function. (It probably would have been more clear if I'd used actual RW examples, but that's outside the scope of Candlekeep.) And I agree that faiths in the Realms have considerably more *focus* than RW religions, and it should be that way.
I only meant to float the idea that Realms faiths have a great deal of room for divine mystery that should be allowed to be there.
Oh, I see. Yes the FR have a lot of room for divine mystery, for example the nature of divine minds, how they think and act (I mean act as in directly, we know that they also act through their agents) and how their magic works should stay shrouded in uncertainty. But having someone wondering if his/her god(dess) exists and acting for his/her (at that point only hypothetically existing) deity because 'faith' is not something I (personally) would like to read/see. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 05 Sep 2012 15:32:45 |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 20:05:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Exactly.
[...]
To address godly issues, think of how religion functions in our own world. Can you reconcile (with Wikipedia like "accuracy") the great mysteries of the various world faiths? How miracles work and the seeming contradictions in scriptures? No--that's why we have churches, where people go and discuss how these things matter to our daily lives, not how they work on a physical level. That's how faith should be in the Realms.
[...]
Honestly, I don't want 'faith' in the Realms to work like RW religion. In the Realms 'mysteries' of the divine are not really that, but simply associated with divine magic performed by priests. And I've always seen the latter more like agents of the gods on the prime than priests who stir 'faith' trying to convert people. They know what their deity stands for and work with him/her for said goal because -while there are things that they can't know- they at least are aware that he/she is there and is fighting for their common cause, not simply out of 'faith' in the uncertain.
I'm all for gods not being interventionist and for the mortals being the main players, but I'm not for them being completely shrouded in a fog of mystery (to me, the faith in the Realms is not in the identity or in the existence or less of the worshipped deity, but in his/her goal, for which clerics and followers work with their patron(ess)).
I agree, since the gods in the Realms are more "there" than irl, whether they are interventionist or not. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 20:38:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Irennan: I didn't mean to suggest that Realms religions should take RW religions as a blueprint for how they function. (It probably would have been more clear if I'd used actual RW examples, but that's outside the scope of Candlekeep.) And I agree that faiths in the Realms have considerably more *focus* than RW religions, and it should be that way.
I only meant to float the idea that Realms faiths have a great deal of room for divine mystery that should be allowed to be there.
Oh, I see. Yes the FR have a lot of room for divine mystery, for example the nature of divine minds, how they think and act (I mean act as in directly, we know that they also act through their agents) and how their magic works should stay shrouded in uncertainty. But having someone wondering if his/her god(dess) exists and acting for his/her (at that point only hypothetically existing) deity because 'faith' is not something I (personally) would like to read/see.
Again, I agree. Of course there can be some mystery, like in the points you stated, but I don't want there to be a mystery of whether or not they exist. |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 21:18:32
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I'm starting to lean (ever so slightly) toward Sleyvas' way of thinking regarding the planes. Like Erik, I am a huge fan of the 2e Planescape era (having come from GH, and owning so much other setting D&D material, that was a no-brainer for me), but keeping them all separate may have some merit.
I think the 'take' that Michael Moorcock uses in his novels might be best. When Elric (or other characters) meet gods like Arioch in other worlds, they are slightly different. On some worlds, some gods no longer even exist. Yet, from world to world, these deities still seem to know Elric (or whomever), and interact with him accordingly. In some extreme cases, the gods even behave a little differently (not radically so, but enough to be noticeable).
To me, that means there is a 'default' version of places like the Nine Hells. Perhaps there is one 'master plan' world/plane, and everything is a reflection of that (or in my own theories, the 'True World' was shattered, creating the multiverse). That means it is the same Hell on every world, but it is also different from world to world. Maybe in Greyhawk, Asmodeus doesn't have the cool little goatee, or whatever. The differences can be minor, but the fact is that each is just a reflection of the others, and what happens in one doesn't necessarily happen in the others.
Problem is, we can envision that, but its hard as hell to put into rules. My idea of one 'sun god' in the D&D rules, and saying that each world's sun god is the 'local version' ties into that. Or Bane, or Death, or who/whatever. If core Bane dies on 'Cortopia', it doesn't effect bane in the Realms.
The big problem with that is that it nukes planescape, completely. what happens when an avatar of core bane comes across an avatar of FR Bane? What happens when an FR character kills bane in the outer planes, and come back to the Realms and finds it wasn't 'his bane'? It gets really wonky, fast.
This is where 'indefinite divine lore' comes in handy, but its a bit of a cop-out. They have to decide if they are all the same, or all different. Not for us, but for the canon. If Paul Kemp writes a novel where he kills Tiamet, and Margaret Weiss writes a novel about the return of Takhisis, which canon is correct? We can say "its beyond mortal understanding" for our games, but they can't. Canon can't be that 'wishy-washy'.
If they ever want to revisit the Planescape setting, or even renew it as the default cosmology for 5e, then they had better start thinking about this stuff now. You can't have it both ways. Planscape itself (or at least, the hub of the Outlands) would have to be re-imagined if the cosmologies were to remain separate. Rules about Archtypes and world-specific deities would have to be put into place.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 05 Sep 2012 22:12:53 |
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avaz
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 21:30:37
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1) Your number one favorite thing about the Realms, which needs to be preserved or developed. Give suggestions if you like.
Love the sourcebooks focusing on specific regions (Silver Marches, etc.).
2) Your number one thing that needs to be addressed, for you to love the Realms like you used to.
This might not even be a "used to" thing, but I'd like to see more varied human races in a much more "active" distributed through the realms materials. Especially novels. I really liked the art director's vision of watching people go by in NY. Multiple ethnicities, cultures, skin tones, etc.. As I think about introducing my children to this it made me think about what I loved about D&D in general. It was the story and the ability to think of myself as a hero in those stories. Everyone wants heroes they can see a bit of themselves in. You'll notice in comics they are starting to focus on diversifying their casts a bit more as well. To take my family as an example, my ancestry is eastern indian, my wife is german/irish/other, and my children are a mix of all of that, except for one who is Ethiopian. We have a full color and culture range between us. I would love for them all to be able to "see" themselves in these stories and adventures going forward.
thanks! |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 22:11:07
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Diversity of skin tone and cultural background (mostly but not entirely in the art) is something I want to see as well. I created a whole thread about it. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 23:03:53
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going back to my earlier post...
Maybe primorials are the only real constant? In other words, each world has its own deities. These are manifested by the sphere (world/plane) itself, from the common beliefs of the mortals within the sphere. That means its not really the god thats interloping, but rather, the concept. Thus, some Spelljammers/Planeswalkers hear about Bane on Toril, start worshiping him, and bring that faith to other worlds. Those worlds 'grow' their own Bane (who is based completely on the beliefs of those who believe in him). These 'new born' deities are left to fend for themselves, to live or die (in that sphere) dependent upon how much power they can accumulate, before some similar (or angry) deity decides to destroy them.
So they are the same gods, but they are also not the same gods.
But primordials would truly be the same beings. Them, and elder evils - they are part of the very fabric of the multiverse itself. they may have different names on different worlds, but they are the same being. they have no avatars, no 'pale reflections' - what you see is what you get. In that way, they are both more powerful then deities, and at the same time, less so. Their very nature is completely different.
What that means moving forward (into 5e) is that if they want to bring back some semblance of 2e Planescape, the can base it primarily around primordials. The 'deities' present could all be avatars of one god or another (it wouldn't matter, because in the Outlands what you do does not have to effect things back home), but the primoridals are precisely who they are, always. In the planes, the Fire Primordial is Kakatal (for the sake of argument). He is always Kakatal. On Oerth (GH), the deity Pyremius holds the portfolio of fire - he has nothing to do with Kakatal. On Toril, Kossuth holds the portfolio of elemental fire.. but he is not a primoridal. He is just a very, very ancient god. Proimrdials do not 'hold portfolios', they are the living embodiment of their element (or matter, or energy, or concept).
It would make Planescape somewhat different then what it used to be, but a decent semblance can be carried over form the old days. The gods were never the main focus in a PS game, and the primordials can be treated the same way. They just sit in their ancient 'kingdom' (the Outlands); strange alien beings biding their time and ignoring much of what goes on around them. Like deities, primordials cannot enter Sigil (I consider both to be 'gods'), so nothing would really change there.
We have to tinker with the FR concept of primordials, though, and figure out what happened with the Abeir/Sundering situation. Were the entrapped primordials just a small group of primordials that fought with the gods, or were nearly all of them trapped on Abeir*, and have only been released from their prison since the spellplague (which would give us an in-game reason for re-tooling Planescape).
*This makes Abeir way too much like Tarterus, but this is already a done deal. We would just be tweaking how extensive this imprisonment was. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 23:21:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I'm starting to lean (ever so slightly) toward Sleyvas' way of thinking regarding the planes. Like Erik, I am a huge fan of the 2e Planescape era (having come from GH, and owning so much other setting D&D material, that was a no-brainer for me), but keeping them all separate may have some merit.
I think the 'take' that Michael Moorcock uses in his novels might be best. When Elric (or other characters) meet gods like Arioch in other worlds, they are slightly different. On some worlds, some gods no longer even exist. Yet, from world to world, these deities still seem to know Elric (or whomever), and interact with him accordingly. In some extreme cases, the gods even behave a little differently (not radically so, but enough to be noticeable).
To me, that means there is a 'default' version of places like the Nine Hells. Perhaps there is one 'master plan' world/plane, and everything is a reflection of that (or in my own theories, the 'True World' was shattered, creating the multiverse). That means it is the same Hell on every world, but it is also different from world to world. Maybe in Greyhawk, Asmodeus doesn't have the cool little goatee, or whatever. The differences can be minor, but the fact is that each is just a reflection of the others, and what happens in one doesn't necessarily happen in the others.
Problem is, we can envision that, but its hard as hell to put into rules. My idea of one 'sun god' in the D&D rules, and saying that each world's sun god is the 'local version' ties into that. Or Bane, or Death, or who/whatever. If core Bane dies on 'Cortopia', it doesn't effect bane in the Realms.
The big problem with that is that it nukes planescape, completely. what happens when an avatar of core bane comes across an avatar of FR Bane? What happens when an FR character kills bane in the outer planes, and come back to the Realms and finds it wasn't 'his bane'? It gets really wonky, fast.
This is where 'indefinite divine lore' comes in handy, but its a bit of a cop-out. They have to decide if they are all the same, or all different. Not for us, but for the canon. If Paul Kemp writes a novel where he kills Tiamet, and Margaret Weiss writes a novel about the return of Takhisis, which canon is correct? We can say "its beyond mortal understanding" for our games, but they can't. Canon can't be that 'wishy-washy'.
If they ever want to revisit the Planescape setting, or even renew it as the default cosmology for 5e, then they had better start thinking about this stuff now. You can't have it both ways. Planscape itself (or at least, the hub of the Outlands) would have to be re-imagined if the cosmologies were to remain separate. Rules about Archtypes and world-specific deities would have to be put into place.
Just to throw another thing out there with this type of thing. Say all (or let's say "MOST") primes have a nine hells associated with them. The size of the 8th hell is finite in size, but if you want it to continue past its borders.... at its edges maybe there are little known portals (and either hard to activate, or one-way) to the 8th hell in another prime. In this other 8th hell though there's an entirely different lord of this hell (might be the same name and look.... might be totally different). This could easily lead to a "planescape" issue where someone gets lost and quite simply can't find home again.
Also, just to make things more interesting... maybe one of the great things about being a prime-born being is that you can traverse those portals mentioned above. Maybe outsiders in the 8th hell heading towards that same portal couldn't traverse through it, as being outsiders maybe they are absolutely bound to THIS universe. This does break the planescape stuff to a degree, but truthfully, I was never a big fan of devils from one universe jumping from prime to prime. However, there could be some ritual or spell that an outsider could do that then frees them up to be able to perform such travel (maybe it involves using a captured soul)... but it should be little known, etc... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 23:33:42
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Regarding the cosmology:
The Great Wheel, Great Tree, and 4e Cosmology are all compatible; there is no reason to make any changes. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 23:40:06
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I wonder if gods and primordials are really all that different. Maybe the difference is more psychological than physical. What makes a god a god is empathy, drive, ambition--something like a soul?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 23:49:41
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Some planes should still remain constant, though, like Limbo. There is no point in having separate limbos (and it should remain infinite, as well, which is kinda the definition of limbo). Limbo may be the only place two avatars of the same deity (from different worlds) could 'fight' (or just meet to exchange pleasantries). It would be like the Dimension of Manifestations in Marvel comics.
I'm not sure if I would say one worlds hell is connected to another - I think knowing there is another version of them would drive most fiends nuts.
Thinking on this further, and applying some of my own musings, I think that there should be a number of 'universal' planes, which are actually dimensions (dimensions can contain a number of planes within them). Thus, 'dimensions' takes the place of the old 'transitive plane' concept. Instead of those being separate planes between other planes, they become the 'container' for various planes (so they basically work the same - its like how the old astral and ethereal worked).
Ergo, we have one Shadowfel, one Feywild, one astral, one Ethereal (my Æthervale concept), maybe an Ordial plane, Limbo... each being a region in which other planes reside. Most of the rest should be separate, and crossing between them should be very limited (I can see 'heavens' going to war with each other as well as 'hells'). The Prime Material definitely needs to be one of these dimensions, rather then a plane (because each crystal sphere is its own plane, and the four elements and/or the maelstrom should be folded into that).
So there would be a default cosmology (much as it was in 2e), and then their would be locale variations (perturbations?) of the theme. One world may have ten hells, while another only have eight. It really all depends on what the mortals there believe in.
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Sep 2012 23:05:44 |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 05 Sep 2012 : 23:59:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Some planes should still remain constant, though, like Limbo.
Lmao, what?! |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 00:07:30
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What I mean is that there should be only one Limbo, not a limbo for each world. That should apply to only certain planes, and the rest be world-specific.
I still haven't completely warmed to this idea - just toying with it for now. I'm just trying to figure out how to blend the two together into something I wouldn't mind.
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I wonder if gods and primordials are really all that different. Maybe the difference is more psychological than physical. What makes a god a god is empathy, drive, ambition--something like a soul?
Well, just take that to the next level.
What if accepting worshipers opens a conduit to mortal faith, which creates this 'soul stuff'? once touched by 'humanity', it kinda rubs off on you?
I've seen similar themes in alien (usually psionic) stories. By 'touching' the minds of humans, they are 'infected' with emotions (humanity). I think I've even seen this happen with certain unique illithids. Too much contact with 'lowly humans' and their peers may begin to think them insane.
Not just aliens - demons, angels, even vampires - I've seen this sort of 'changed by contact' storyline a lot, with different twists.
quote:
Agent Kay in Men in Black
That is a lot of fun. It's a universal translator. We're not even supposed to have it, and I'll tell you why... Human thought is so primitive it's looked upon as an infectious disease in some of the better galaxies. That kind of makes you proud, doesn't it?"
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"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Sep 2012 00:10:04 |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 00:09:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I wonder if gods and primordials are really all that different. Maybe the difference is more psychological than physical. What makes a god a god is empathy, drive, ambition--something like a soul?
Well, just take that to the next level.
What if accepting worshipers opens a conduit to mortal faith, which creates this 'soul stuff'? once touched by 'humanity', it kinda rubs off on you?
I've seen similar themes in alien (usually psionic) stories. By 'touching' the minds of humans, they are 'infected' with emotions (humanity). I think I've even seen this happen with certain unique illithids. Too much contact with 'lowly humans' and their peers may begin to think them insane.
Not just aliens - demons, angels, even vampires - I've seen this sort of 'changed by contact' storyline a lot, with different twists.
quote:
Agent Kay in Men in Black
That is a lot of fun. It's a universal translator. We're not even supposed to have it, and I'll tell you why... Human thought is so primitive it's looked upon as an infectious disease in some of the better galaxies. That kind of makes you proud, doesn't it?"
So gods could be primordials , tainted by humanity |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 00:10:13
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@Hidden Lord: Care to expand on that? Let's please avoid cluttering up the thread.
@MT: Was limbo even around in 3e? It was vividly present in 2e, but I don't remember it in 3e.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Mapolq
Senior Scribe
Brazil
466 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 01:40:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I think the 'take' that Michael Moorcock uses in his novels might be best. When Elric (or other characters) meet gods like Arioch in other worlds, they are slightly different. On some worlds, some gods no longer even exist. Yet, from world to world, these deities still seem to know Elric (or whomever), and interact with him accordingly. In some extreme cases, the gods even behave a little differently (not radically so, but enough to be noticeable).
To me, that means there is a 'default' version of places like the Nine Hells. Perhaps there is one 'master plan' world/plane, and everything is a reflection of that (or in my own theories, the 'True World' was shattered, creating the multiverse). That means it is the same Hell on every world, but it is also different from world to world. Maybe in Greyhawk, Asmodeus doesn't have the cool little goatee, or whatever. The differences can be minor, but the fact is that each is just a reflection of the others, and what happens in one doesn't necessarily happen in the others.
That's pretty much how I do it in my campaign world (or how I'd do it if I ran anything planes-related, anyway). In my view, deities have to spend a considerable amount of energy to manifest their power in a crystal sphere (and ancillary planes) where they're not actually present. So there's a point where it's sensible to split their essence and start existing in two or more places at the same time, thus becoming multispheric. These identities tend to become slightly dissociated, though, accounting for differences between them, but they're really the same being. Killing an identity may harm the others and make it unlikely that the deity will manifest itself in that plane soon, but to destroy a deity you must ultimately track down all its identities.
As a corollary, it´s pretty easy to reintroduce "dead" multispheric deities into a setting, especially after some time has passed. Just say they've chosen to split and manifest again. |
Never sleep under the jackfruit tree.
Tales of Moonsea - A Neverwinter Nights 2 Persistent World. Check out our website at http://www.talesofmoonsea.com and our video trailer at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am304WqOAAo&feature=youtu.be, as well as our thread here at Candlekeep: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=12955
My campaign thread: http://www.forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16447 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 01:46:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I wonder if gods and primordials are really all that different. Maybe the difference is more psychological than physical. What makes a god a god is empathy, drive, ambition--something like a soul?
Cheers
We have several sources which further murky the waters of what exactly remains the differences between gods and primordials.
I'd assume there is some difference when attempting comparisons in terms of power levels between primordials and deities.
And I've seen instances of primordials described as "god-like," suggesting that they aren't always wholly considered as "gods" in the traditional conception of the term for the Realms.
However the relationship between worship and the overall power level of a primordial works, I wouldn't be so quick to assume that it functions in the same way as that between a mortal and a deity on Toril. In fact, I'd expect the primordials have their own method for the worship-to-power transition.
Thus, I don't think the relationship between a worshipper and a primordial works in the same fashion on Abeir, as that of a worshipper and a deity on Toril.
Do primordials have portfolios? Are they able to grant a portion of their near god-like power to worshippers?
Judging from what little we know of the Order of the Dawn and their collective worship of the Dawn Titans, any and all possibilities could be realised.
...
I also remember some bits in the various "Haunted Lands" books which suggested that primordials might not be exactly like deities, but close to them in terms of power.
...
And Matt James has previously stated that "primordials are "Gods" in their own right--merely of the elemental sort. They are separate, but of equal power and influence." |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 01:49:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@MT: Was limbo even around in 3e? It was vividly present in 2e, but I don't remember it in 3e.
Limbo was referenced in Serpent Kingdoms, and in Kemp's second book of the "Cale" trilogy. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 02:25:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Hidden Lord: Care to expand on that? Let's please avoid cluttering up the thread.
@MT: Was limbo even around in 3e? It was vividly present in 2e, but I don't remember it in 3e.
Cheers
I've not cluttered this thread. If you believe this to be true, you are incorrect.
I will expand. However, I think it best to do so diagrammatically. I will prepare the necessary diagrams, upload them to a site capable of image hosting, and provide links for you elucidation here. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 03:01:05
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MT- How does this sort of cosmology theory relate crystal spheres to the phlogiston? If each sphere was its own plane, then one could not travel between them via Spelljamming. This also needs to be addressed. I'd suggest, instead, that while each plane is finite, it also connects to each other plane, and to the phlogiston as well, through shifting borders, much like the color veils we had in Planescape. A border that passed from the Abyss to the Nine Hells at one time, might shift to border with Celestia or the elemental fire plane the next time one crosses. These borders might not even need to be visible- it could be that travellers cross them without ever even knowing- one minute you're walking through the Feywild, and the next, you're in Sigil! Or Ravenloft, or the Astral,.... Point is, we really don't need portals at all, just say that the planes themselves are always moving and rearranging themselves in new configurations, which would even explain the different cosmologies. It might have resembled a tree at one time, simply because of how the planes had shifted and positioned themselves at that point. Or it could have been one vast wheel to someone who traveled through them at a different time. It would be completely random, of course, which would explain why no one can agree on what form it takes.
I like the idea of there being "core" deities that exist on all worlds, but with different names or aspects, and I also like the old PS idea of all crystal spheres existing within one Prime Material plane, but as different parts of it (in the phlogiston). Can we incorporate these into that shifting paradigm, so that each prime world manifests its own version of a deity concept, according to the beliefs of the world's inhabitants? And Spelljammers might encounter different version of the same deity by traveling from one world to another, which might also explain how even "dead" gods can still exist and/or grant spells. They could simply be pulling power from a different version somewhere else, or from the base deity itself. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 07:07:22
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LOL - I hate Spelljamming.
But I've discussed before how to make that all work - Gray richardson and I had an excellent discussion about all of that, and how to rectify certain inconsistent lore (and that was back in 3e!)
Basically, we said the atmosphere around a planet is it's near ethereal. When you shift into the ethereal, thats where you are... but it looks pretty-much like where you were (because you are on the border, and can still see into the Prime). When you enter arcane space (while spelljamming), you are in the (normal) ethereal. Its pretty boring. If you aren't spelljamming, then you just wind up in space and die. When you leave the crystal sphere, you are actually enter the Plane of Shadows (this is what we came up with in 3e). thats why 'light' (or any type of fire) is anethema to the plane. at the time, thats what we came up with, because it wass the best fit, and in 3e the only way to travel between worlds was through the plane of shadow.
However, with the 4e lore, we have an even better fix - the phlogiston becomes the (elemental) Maelstrom. When you are spelljamming, you are mostly protected from the detrimental affects, and 'fly' between the pockets of energies and matter. But even that 'empty space' is highly volatile (hence, the normal properties of the phlogiston).
The Prime Material plane consists of the material plane (all of those Crystal Spheres - its really a shattered plane), and the Phlogiston/Maelstrom, which is the stuff the worlds float in. This wasn't as chaotic back when the Maelstrom was divided into separate elemental planes (the way space looked before in SJ), but with the the elemental planes being ruptured and the maelstrom being recreated in its full glory, Spelljamming has become quite a bit more dangerous.
This is why Shadowjamming (or just planeswalking) has become preferable - the phlogiston/Maelstrom is simply too volatile now. Most of the newer 'planer ships' are equipped with variable helms, which allow travel through several different transitive mediums (planes).
So you see, the old (2e) Phlogiston was the mostly empty space where the maelstrom used to be, before it was contained within the elemental planes. That region no longer exists in 4e because the Maelstrom is back (the physical place exists, but its changed). Depending on what they do with those planes/The Maelstrom in 5e, we may get back the Phlogiston as we once knew it.
As for Limbo, I don't even really think of it as plane anymore, nor even a dimension (an over-plane). Its more like 'that area outside of all other planes'. It could very well be the region the Far realms are in (they are just very, VERY far away, as the name implies). Its stuff outside of our universe, so it should be infinite. It's 'The Nothing'. Thus, the Far Realms are on the far side of Limbo (which I only just came up with just now - it kinda has a Lovecraftian vibe that way, which is fitting).
You want to get to the far realms you can't do it easily - you have to talk to a worm hole (which is an impossibly large, sentient creature in the D&D universe).
Once again, just the way I interpret things (based on canon, but not canon). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Sep 2012 07:09:31 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 08:29:18
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| Possible, but then you would run into problems every time you used a simple fly spell or something like that. A world's atmosphere covers the entire space between the surface and space beyond. So you'd be going into the ethereal every time you left the ground, which doesn't make sense either. PErhaps it might work if the ethereal was a small layer at the TOP of the atmosphere, because otherwise a high-flying dragon would always be in the ethereal, not the Prime. Unless the ethereal exists overlapping the atmosphere- THAT would make more sense. But that still doesn't fit well with the earlier lore on how Spelljamming works(ed). Before, as I read it, it was not entirely empty, it was filled with left-over bits of world-creation and other multiversal debris, including some stuff sucked out of the elemental planes, outer planes, etc. That doesn't sound quite like what you described. It sounds more like what you're using Limbo for- which it's never been, AFAIK. Limbo in PS was simply another plane on the GReat Wheel, just as Pandemonium was seperate plane, and not simply a mix of the hells and Abyss and the ELemental Chaos. I think to really make it work, we have to keep the planes seperate from the phlogiston, and perhaps overlap the phlogiston with the Astral plane, which seems a more likely candidate for that anyway. I don't think I like keeping the elemental maelstrom, either, the elements should be distinct and separate, by their very nature. I'm drawing on RW metaphysical lore, here, but there's a REASON the elements are opposed to each other- both physically and symbolically. In a mage's circle, one is always used to "douse" or block/control its opposite. ie- earth to bury air, water to put out fire, etc. The elemental planes need to exist as seperate, distinct regions, as do the positive and negative planes. Shadow seems to co-exist with the ethereal, and perhaps the feywild might overlap with the astral or better yet, the material plane. I can actually see the feywild as existing in the Outlands closest to Sigil, but I'm still working on how it all ties together. There's a tie-in to the Great Tree, too, I just haven't found it yet. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 21:46:07
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The following is almost entirely homebrew - YMMV
Nope - you would need to cast the correct magic to become 'out of phase' with the prime (and enter the border-ethereal, which does have a solid ground as well). Note that in my variation of the border-ehtereal - the Æthervale - it is the same as the Wood between the worlds (which Ed uses), and also Moorcock's concept of 'the Mittlemarch'.
Its just that place we sometimes 'see' out of the corner of our eye, filled with creatures and places of legend. Its right next to us, and yet infinitely far away.. if one doesn't know 'the right path'. We see echoes of this in the works of Marion Zimmer Bradley (Avalon) and Pirates of the Carribean (Barbossa: "For sure, you have to be lost to find a place that can't be found, elseways everyone would know where it was.")
Anyhow, this is part of the magic of a spelljamming helm - its a multi-layered field-effect dweomer. You get 'shunted' into the Border ethereal - where you can still see the 'real world' - and when you exit the atmosphere you enter the ethereal plane. without the magic of the helm (if you were in a normal flying vessel), you would run out of air long before you exited the atmosphere and die.
Helms: (my variant)
1) The magic shifts you into the Æthervale (border)
2) Allows the vessel to fly
3) Provides a bubble of breathable atmosphere
4) provides gravity once you are outside of a gravity well (the gravitational pull of a celestial body).
It doesn't have to have separate magic to move you into the ethereal - this is something that happens automatically when you exit the Border ethereal, because you've come to the edge and have now entered the (full) ethereal. Once in the Ethereal, you can shift into the Shadowfel and just continue on from there, or just continue until the ethereal plane ends at the boundary of the Crystal Sphere (the Crystal Sphere itself extends into nearly all transitive planes). Once you cross out of the crystal sphere, you are in 'elemental space' (the Phlogiston/maelstrom). This region was also once known as 'the deep ethereal'.
A vessel able to access the Shadow plane can do so directly from the border ethereal - it needn't pass through the Ethereal Plane first (and it would be only a momentary pass-through, barely noticeable, from the Prime). Other vessels are equipped with Fiendhelms (able to traverse the river Styx), and celestial helms (able to travel the river Oceanus), and Feyhelms (able to traverse the Feywild and Yggdrasil). Some are equipped with multi-transitional helms that can access a number of these. Since the advent of the Planestorm (what planers call the spellplague), very few 'pure' Spelljamming helms are still in use outside of Crystal Spheres. With the maelstrom being restored, the Phlogiston has become too dangerous. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 06 Sep 2012 21:52:55 |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e) THE SEQUEL
