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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
 Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 04:33:41
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
See, this is where you argument breaks down. We have only your word that you, supposedly, "know better." And, quite frankly, I've yet to see that from you. In fact, the only thing you know how to "do better than most, is continually tout your opinions and perspectives as far superior to practically every other scribe's opinions.
I would like to most respectfully request that you please review the thread, if you wish. You will maybe note that Markus stated that Mystryl was the Goddess of the complete weave. I know that this is not canon; however, I allowed for the possibility that I could be mistaken. Therefore, I asked that some citation be provided. The citation that Markus provided proved my point... the commentary was from a character, and organization, in the Realms.
Hence, it *is* canon that Melegaunt Tanthul stated as much, it is canon that Galaeron intimated as much with Tanthuls prompting, and that there exists some tomes in the 'Elven Academy' that Galaeron could have read that allowed him to conflate the perspective of Melegaunt.
However, it is not canon that Mystryl was the Goddess of the Weave in a more "complete" way that Mystra is.
So, in this case, I'm having some difficulty understanding how my 'argument' breaks down:
A scribe made an assertion which I knew to be incorrect. When asked for a citation to support that he was correct, he provided a citation which proved, unequivocally, that he was wrong.
(In this case, I knew better.)
I respectfully hope that you will review the thread in a fair manner. I offer you my sincerest thanks for the consideration you have given this thread, and want to take this opportunity offer up my accolades of you fantastic moderation here.
Thank you. |
Edited by - The Hidden Lord on 17 Oct 2012 04:47:26 |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 04:38:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
If that's the case, then could you please explain why my version is 72 pages? If the manual is 66 pages, then what does the material of the other pages belong to? A realmslore article?
Hello Sightless; please allow me to offer some links for your perusal, with utter deference. Please review them, if you wish.
I am looking at my physical copies of the Netheril boxed set and How the Mighty Are Fallen.
Some product information on these is provided below, and corresponds with the physical products I have before me.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Netheril:_Empire_of_Magic
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/How_the_Mighty_Are_Fallen
If I may please, most respectfully, ask... Where did you purchase your copies of the above products?
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 04:41:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
And before I get back to work, was Velsharoon killed off?
I've heard conflicting facts on that.
Vesharoon died in 1425DR.
FRCG pg.88 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 05:17:44
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
I respectfully hope that you will review the thread in a fair manner.
Noted.
Review pending.
[I'm still curious, though, as to why you've overlooked my concerns regarding your persistent condescension when replying to certain scribes in discussions here.] |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 05:22:43
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
If that's the case, then could you please explain why my version is 72 pages? If the manual is 66 pages, then what does the material of the other pages belong to? A realmslore article?
Hello Sightless; please allow me to offer some links for your perusal, with utter deference. Please review them, if you wish.
I am looking at my physical copies of the Netheril boxed set and How the Mighty Are Fallen.
Some product information on these is provided below, and corresponds with the physical products I have before me.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Netheril:_Empire_of_Magic
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/How_the_Mighty_Are_Fallen
If I may please, most respectfully, ask... Where did you purchase your copies of the above products?
A month ago I contacted WOTC, and asked if one could purchase elecronic copies of the game books. I explained my disability and that would very much like to have the ability to access the same material that sighted gamers do. After going back in forth with various individuals in the purchasing department, sorry, I don't remember half of the people I delt with names, over the course of several days. I was able to purchase copies of several source books for 2nd, third, and 3.5. A CD with thie information was mailed to my house. I paid for it via credit card. In every other case, as far as I know, as I've not listened to all the material I know have, the books match up with hard copies. According to a friend that's checked out a few on my computer. To be procise these were Lords of Darkness, one of the Monster manuals, and the Silver marches.
So when I say, why do I have more pages here, it's because I'm seriously confused. I don't want to post the material, simply because I told multiple folks when I was buying the stuff that I wouldn't do that, as WOTC is quite, and resonably so, concerned with internet piracy. Does this help? |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 05:30:27
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I humbly request that you consider the origination, chronologically, of ad hominen attacks in this thread. Respectfully, I must assert that I have not addressed any scribe in a condescending manner, with the exception of one scribe who I most deferentially must report engaged in vicious, ad hominen attacks.
I meekly, and respectfully, accept that some scribes may engage in attacks like these, without reprisal.
quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
I respectfully hope that you will review the thread in a fair manner.
Noted.
Review pending.
[I'm still curious, though, as to why you've overlooked my concerns regarding your persistent condescension when replying to certain scribes in discussions here.]
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 05:31:18
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Oh, I wasn't disagreeing with the 66 page thing, I am truely curious. I'll call them tomorrow maybe and ask them about it. Until then, It's just one of those many life's little mysteries.
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We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 05:32:04
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| Sightless, where did you purchase your copies of the Netheril books you are referencing? |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 05:39:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
If that's the case, then could you please explain why my version is 72 pages? If the manual is 66 pages, then what does the material of the other pages belong to? A realmslore article?
Hello Sightless; please allow me to offer some links for your perusal, with utter deference. Please review them, if you wish.
I am looking at my physical copies of the Netheril boxed set and How the Mighty Are Fallen.
Some product information on these is provided below, and corresponds with the physical products I have before me.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Netheril:_Empire_of_Magic
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/How_the_Mighty_Are_Fallen
If I may please, most respectfully, ask... Where did you purchase your copies of the above products?
A month ago I contacted WOTC, and asked if one could purchase elecronic copies of the game books. I explained my disability and that would very much like to have the ability to access the same material that sighted gamers do. After going back in forth with various individuals in the purchasing department, sorry, I don't remember half of the people I delt with names, over the course of several days. I was able to purchase copies of several source books for 2nd, third, and 3.5. A CD with thie information was mailed to my house. I paid for it via credit card. In every other case, as far as I know, as I've not listened to all the material I know have, the books match up with hard copies. According to a friend that's checked out a few on my computer. To be procise these were Lords of Darkness, one of the Monster manuals, and the Silver marches.
So when I say, why do I have more pages here, it's because I'm seriously confused. I don't want to post the material, simply because I told multiple folks when I was buying the stuff that I wouldn't do that, as WOTC is quite, and resonably so, concerned with internet piracy. Does this help?
Let me attempt to be clear, I did the purchase over the phone, as I understand books can be ordered this way, I can't say how normal what I did was, or if they were just feeling gernious or what, but that's what happened. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 05:51:05
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Sightless, why dont you please, and I bid you respectfully, write out the actual text of the paragraphs where you believe it states that Mystra was split from the Weave, that the weave was fragmented from its "whole magic" state, and the page number and product from which you are quoting.
With great respect and humility, your friend,
THL |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 11:01:52
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I seem to remember reading, but I might be wrong, that some of the pdf's of old products that wotc were planning to sell would be enhanced versions with extra unpublished material there did not make final cut etc etc
A difference in page number might also be due to the platform you are reading it on.
I remember from buying baen e-books, were you basically get the e-book in a large number of different formats, that some of the formats / platforms use vastly different amount of pages since they have been optimized for different screen sizes |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 16:51:50
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quote:
Originally posted by Eilserus
Definitely agree with seeing the Zhentarim return with a vengeance. Manshoon can start by butchering every Cyric workshipper in Darkhold. Maybe he'll even use that as his base of operations while they repair or rebuild Zhentil Keep or the Citadel of the Raven. I could see Mulmaster as the new center of the Zhents too. I always liked that city and think there's so much there worth exploring. Lost Sarphil for one. ;)
Just a note here. The one thing we hear a lot of that got people set off was "X returned". I like the idea of a Zhentarim-like force reforming. I would prefer however that they not be called the Zhentarim. I would prefer they not be based in old Zhentarim strongholds. Also, I would prefer that they have different deities being behind their focus (and by different deities, it could be multiple). Bane can still be one of them, but why exactly does the lord of tyranny need to be over a group seeking to control tradeways? I'm not saying he doesn't fit, but there could be other deities that might fit better. For instance, maybe Waukeen. Maybe Mask. Maybe Shaundakul. Maybe a shipping sect with Umberlee.
Also, having this group have leanings towards evil, but not being outright evil all the time could make them more palatable. Thus, those clerics of Waukeen and Shaundakul may include some neutral members. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 17:06:47
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It is actually easy to see a solution for how to create multiera supporting sourcebooks
You will have to go to a model were you sell pdf's and print on demand were the customer can set checkmarks in
1) pre spellplague description
2) post spellplague survival years (4e)
3) new post spell plague era (5e)
4) I want it all
A number of descriptions in the book would be the same, but some paragraphs would be different
In some cases would it be simple like the shop owner being x or the grandgranddaughter of x
In other cases would it be
this building is now a ruin postspellplague and in the pre spellplague years was it a theater
I see it like
some basic information
Include x extra paragraphs if you activated point 1
include y extra paragraphs if you activated point 2
Include z extra paragraphs if you activated point 3
Include x+y+z extra paragraphs if you activated point 4 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12189 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 17:13:52
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
quote:
Originally posted by Sightless
And before I get back to work, was Velsharoon killed off?
I've heard conflicting facts on that.
Vesharoon died in 1425DR.
FRCG pg.88
Don't count him out so easily. As we've seen with much realmslore, no loop is ever totally closed. I can easily think of some points that could be done here. First, Velsharoon was the god of liches. He was a living human before becoming a deity. He started using the alias Mellifleur (the previous god of liches who gained his power by accident when turning into a lich and siphoning power from Bane). One of the things I always thought was that Velsharoon's rising was done using Mellifleur's phylactery and a re-enactment of Mellifleur's lich making ritual. So, what we hear is that Velsharoon was killed in a fire (blue flame maybe? Silver fire maybe?). It could be that his essence then transferred to his phylactery and he needs his phylactery to come near a powerful enough corpse to form a new body. Where his phylactery(ies) are located could be so protected that noone has yet to find them... note, yet...
Note, it was also noted that he was seeking out the crown of horns that Myrkul's essence resided in. Maybe it was all a ruse, and he had actually found the crown. Maybe he released Myrkul's essence and the big fire was an explosion as the 3 deities (Myrkul, Velsharoon, and Mellifleur) combined somehow.
Now, lets throw some other twists into all that, what if Velsharoon had actually sought out the remains of Kiaransalee? What if Velsharoon (who at least in my version of his mortal self was a wizard / dread necromancer / binder ... see the build here... http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=15718 ) was intrigued by what had happened with Orcus and the fact that Tenebrous existed as a vestige and did something to mess with it? |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 20:41:47
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At Therise's request, I have removed her borrowed post from this thread. It was not my intention to attack, dismiss, or corrupt her words to fit my agenda (and as I attempted to make clear, I agree with her about 90% on what needs redress). I merely intended to use her list as a convenient list of items that I feel need to be addressed going forward.
My apologies to Therise. I absolutely did not intend to anger or upset you in any way, and was only trying to diffuse your wise analysis.
If anyone quoted any part of her post in this thread, please delete it as well.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 21:27:58
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EVERYTHING in FR is written from the perspective that Elminster visits Ed in his home and gives him information. In only one rare case (a comic) two designers/employees of WotC visited the Realms and got Volo's Guide to All Things Magical (which Elminster never wanted to see the light of day). The idea is that Elminster 'edits' everything, which could mean anything from actually editing, to obfuscating the truth, to out-write lying.
What that means is the entire setting is HEARSAY, and inadmissible as proof of anything. Once you start deciding which lore is more 'canon', you are falling directly into the opinion arena. No-one's opinion - not even designers other then Ed - is more 'correct' then any other person who is a fan of the setting (this assuming the designer in question is a fan of the setting). For all we know, Elminster is some insane archwizard sitting on a dead, barren world somewhere feeding Ed Greenwood so much hogwash. Except when those two designers visited The Realms, which could have just been an illusion he created.
I read something, and I interpret its meaning. Everyone does that, I had this same (rather heated) argument several years ago with Lord Karsus concerning the Elves and some stuff we were both reading in Elaine's Evermeet novel. We were both reading the exact same passages, and getting something completely different out of them.
The entire RotAW series is based around the premise of a Weave that split when Mytryl fell. To say that never happened is to dismiss the basic premise of the series. It is not just mentioned once - it is referenced numerous times throughout the book, and not only does Malik desperately want 'Whole Magic' (and it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to lie), but Shar even steps in an steals it right out from under him (which tells me that Shar either agreed with all of that, or she is a complete idiot).
Now, I would go so far as to say that it didn't truly split, but rather, Mystra 'lost control' of half of it after she was was reinstated (not sure if that's the correct term for what happened there). That jibes perfectly with later 3e lore which says lots and lots of (sometimes contradictory) things about the Weave and Shadoweave. The Weave is one thing, but the shadoweave is another. yet, the Shadoweave is also part of the weave - it has been described as the 'spaces' between the strands of the weave (or maybe even the shadow of the Weave itself). Irregardless, it has been described as both part of the weave, and its own thing, which seems to completely support Troy Denning's premise in the RotAW. Hlaf of somehthing - anything - is both its own thing, and yet half of something else.
We know that Mytryl was the 'goddess of all magic' (although I still contend there were several forms of magic she never had say over). We know as of the 3e era that the Shadoweave exists, putting the lie to the 'goddess of all magic' thing. It wasn't created in 3e - it supposedly existed before then, but was only made public in 3e (folks found out about it).
So if Mystryl was the goddess of all magic, and Mystra isn't (we have proof of both), how can you deny that at some point in time something happened that made her lose control over a portion of the power she once held? Denning offers one (very good) explanation, but whether thats the exact, correct explanation doesn't matter. what matters is she had control over 'all magic' (excluding runic and Plume, etc), and then she didn't. The Karsestone was composed of something that is no longer available on Toril - Whole Magic. You can call it 'Raw Magic', or whatever else you want - those are just names. The existence of the split in power in undeniable.
Because if Whole Magic doesn't exist, then Troy Denning needs to chime in here and explain to all us precisely what was really happening in his series, since you are saying the entire premise was just a lie. the ending of the novel - Galerion's becoming 'whole', was a allegory for what happened to the magic itself. He accepted his shadow-self and became one with it, making him stronger (then even the shades... with the possible exception of Melegaunt).
If shadow Weave magic isn't from a missing half of the Weave, then where is it from? Aren't you the one who said it wasn't umbral energy either (another "I know all things" statement from you, BTW)? So which is it? Is it the other half of the Weave, or is it an entirely different power-source? You can't have it both ways.
Pick one and run with it - stop confusing everyone. Or do you prefer to leave everything ambiguous 'for fans to decide'? Thats a cop-out. I want designers/employees of WotC to come on here - under there own names - and tell us precisely what is going on there - where the power comes from, what the Weave is, and whether Mystra is the 'goddess of all magic', or just the fraud the lore hints she is. It seems every author/designer has their own ideas about these things - don't you guys have some sort of setting bible?
Are you saying, in your professional opinion, no-one should bother reading RotAW because its 'just a pack of lies'? 
Because I'll fall back on my 'hearsay' argument and say everything FR falls under that category. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 17 Oct 2012 21:36:35 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 21:34:02
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| It's all good. You of all people aren't going to go out and intentionally try to pee in anyone's Cheerios. I suggest we just create our own list of areas that need to be addressed and move forward from there. |
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Sightless
Senior Scribe
USA
608 Posts |
Posted - 17 Oct 2012 : 21:49:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Hidden Lord
Sightless, why dont you please, and I bid you respectfully, write out the actual text of the paragraphs where you believe it states that Mystra was split from the Weave, that the weave was fragmented from its "whole magic" state, and the page number and product from which you are quoting.
With great respect and humility, your friend,
THL
Right will do when I come back to this thread. I really want to deal with the Scroll on Thay, as I promised, and then I'll reply to all the other things. |
We choose to live a lie, when we see with, & not through the eye.
Every decision, no matter the evidence, is a leap of faith; if it were not, then it wouldn't be a choice at all. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 01:07:24
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Amazing. Very rarely have I seen such behavior in these halls, but this is just unbelievable. I think, however, that at least the respondant is justified, considering he was actually using canon from the novels to make a point. Not having read the novle in question, I must take it on faith, but one can't argue with quotes- well, unless those quotes turn out to not exist, but I doubt that's the case.
Actually, that particular quote explains a lot, and suddenly much of the Shadow Weave thing and other types of magic makes so much more sense. If Mystryl WAS the "goddess of all magic", and Karsus somehow diminished her when she saved the weave, it is possible that many ofh the other types of magic were created after her fall. Elven High Magic already existed, but what of the others mentioned? Where else would they have come from? Seems logical to me.
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Therise
Master of Realmslore
1272 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 03:59:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
At Therise's request, I have removed her borrowed post from this thread. It was not my intention to attack, dismiss, or corrupt her words to fit my agenda (and as I attempted to make clear, I agree with her about 90% on what needs redress). I merely intended to use her list as a convenient list of items that I feel need to be addressed going forward.
My apologies to Therise. I absolutely did not intend to anger or upset you in any way, and was only trying to diffuse your wise analysis.
If anyone quoted any part of her post in this thread, please delete it as well.
Cheers
Thank you for the apology.
I have deleted my earlier post taking issue with what happened. I would also request of other participants that any further discussion or commentary of my out-of-context quote (from another thread) be taken up in that thread and not this one. Thanks.
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Female, 40-year DM of a homebrew-evolved 1E Realms, including a few added tidbits of 2E and 3E lore; played originally in AD&D, then in Rolemaster. Be a DM for your kids and grandkids, gaming is excellent for families! |
Edited by - Therise on 18 Oct 2012 03:59:59 |
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Eilserus
Master of Realmslore
USA
1446 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 04:30:54
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Vesperin (The Vast)
Originally a collection of city-states, with 4E they turned into a kingdom. I always liked this area of the Realms. So what kind of incarnation are we wanting to see for 5E here? I could easily see Calaunt and the Merchant Dukes starting a civil war and fracturing the land into city states again. Or an orc horde could manage this nicely too. The united into a nation concept never made much sense to me considering the history of these three cities, but the question is, do we like this as is, does it fit, or need to be fixed? |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 04:59:12
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So, I'm coming late to the party, but here is my list of things I'd love to see restored and consolidated.
Mercenary Companies
Mercenary companies were such a big part of the Old Grey Boxed set, and said companies just seemed to get less and less prominent over time, with the possible exception of the Flaming Fist. I'd love to see big important mercenary companies, where they are based, and how they operate. In their own ways, they are their own sub-type of power group, and power groups really say Realms to me.
While I'd be happy to see some of the older companies survive, when it comes to mercenaries, I'm fine with seeing a fairly high turnover of mercenary companies over 100+ years, so long as the new mercenary companies have a similar feel to those that existed previously.
Famous Adventuring Bands
I loved all of the references to other existing adventuring parties in the Realms. I think this got pushed to the margins because some people felt that existing adventurers were stealing the thunder from the PCs. But other adventuring parties might be retired, and serve as role models, or they might be current rivals for fame and glory. I loved how famous adventuring companies created a sort of "adventurer sub-culture" in the Realms.
Unique Magical Books
While it's true that spellbooks and their usefulness have gone up and down based on the game rules, at the very least, unique magical books that are sought after by those who practice the Art or wield the Power of the divinities for what they can do. They need to have a history to them, and not just a name and a game effect. Magical books, and lots of them!
Evil That Plays the Long Game, and Might Want to Have Tea
From Larloch to various liches and ghosts, to dragons and their kin, I love that the Realms has powerful, clearly evil beings, that despite their evil, are long lived and not at all ready to kill at a moments notice. Evil things that want to chat once in a while and might joke about how the PCs have nothing to fear from them, but their grandchilden, well . . . that might be another story.
Hail to the Z
I love the Zhentarim. I really, really want the Zhentarim to go back to being stunningly simple in purpose and devastatingly effective in practice. It seems like designers lose sight of the core of the Zhentarim, which is dominance through trade, no matter what dirty, vile deeds have to be done to create that trade. To my mind, the Zhentarim has always been a high fantasy mafia on steroids. They don't want to rule the world (overtly), they don't want to serve this god or that god. They want to control as many cities and countries as they can, from the shadows, with threats and coin.
Power Groups
I want to see the old power groups brought more into focus, finding what their core was, and highlighting that core aspect of the power group. However, I also want to see logically progressing new power groups arise as well. While I didn't like how they turned into "the" villains of the Realms, I liked the Shadovar as just another power group. I liked the People of the Black Blood. New power groups are great, so long as they "feel" like power groups of the past.
Gods, Churches, and the Differences Between Them
I want lots of gods. "Lots of gods" strikes me as a very Realmsian thing. While I'm not a fan of cutting and pasting whole Pantheons from other worlds, picking a god here or there from our world is part of the Realms, and I'm fine with that. For example, I think Mulhorand would be better served with, say, one god from the Egyptian pantheon interacting with other gods that are unique to the Realms, much like Tyr and Meilikki do in the North.
But regardless . . . lots of gods. That having been said, I do miss the Old Grey Boxed Set's view of things. I think the Exarchs were totally bad, but got out of hand. In other words, I like that Tyr was the main god, and that people might worship Tyr with Torm or Ilmater as their patron, with fewer people holding Torm or Ilmater as their direct patron without Tyr in the equation. I like lots of demi-gods and lesser gods that serve aspects of the main god's interests, and I think a few too many demi-gods and lesser gods got catapulted up through the godly ranks over the years.
While we don't want the gods walking the Realms and directly acting left and right, we do want to know about churches. When I want information on the Church of Sune, for example, I don't want spells, PrC or the equivalent, and magic items. Those are great, but what I want to know is, what are the ranks, how are they organized, what are their holidays, what do they do on a day to day basis to do their god's will on Faerun?
I'm going to cut out here, as I've gone way over one favorite thing and one thing to be addressed, but I'm hoping this at least gives a snapshot of one Realms fan's version of what they like about the setting. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 05:09:55
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| Woot, someone shares at least some of the feelings as me towards the gods. I'm a god advocate, what can I say: ;) Lots of gods makes me happy. While I liked their previously active roles, I would actually like to know about their churches too. What is daily life like for a priest/cleric? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 05:14:22
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Good to have you back, JR. And thanks for the post! What would you do to bring the Zhentarim back, out of curiosity? Toss out an idea and let's discuss. :)
Myself, I would have them launch a major operation to establish themselves in the Moonsea region again. 4e FR has them in Westgate of all places, but I'm not sure I really buy that. A lot of activity there already. If I were writing the Rise of the Zhentarim novel, I would have them follow a charismatic young anti-hero who deals ruthlessly with other guilds, leads daring raids on rival (legit) merchants, and actively adventures to do such crazy things as bring Manshoon back into the fold (sacrificing a lot of agents just to have a conversation with him). My hero would probably be a blackguard, and SHE would probably be a woman (though one could go either way). That's my basic concept. Thoughts?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 05:22:43
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I like it, and another thing I would do is to have the Zhentarim playing multiple power groups against one another, so as to distract the power players from what they are doing. I like the Zhentarim much more firmly in place in the Moonsea region as well. I wouldn't mind seeing your ambitious Zhentarim anti-hero managing to pull off a few victories based on some long lost contingency plans that were left behind by people like Manshoon and Semmemon as well.
I also like the idea of the pinching some existing guilds. Allow them to do the heavy lifting, strong arm some trade agreements, then have your up and coming Zhentarim hero find some dirt on them, and "turn" those already existing dominant and ruthless guilds into Zhentarim members, in good standing, or else, because of the dirt on them.
I would also not mind seeing the Zhentarim hero going to great lengths to get Manshoon back into the fold, only to have the real(?) Manshoon come from another direction and start sinking his claws in, effectively saying "about time" since he was biding his time to attach himself to the kind of Zhentarim he wants to see in place. |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 05:31:05
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| Admittedly, I've read some books featuring the Zhent, but they are by far not my area of expertise, so my idea may not be to their tastes: but here it is: what if some Zhentarim, disguising themselves to be otherwise, became advisors to rulers to whisper things in their ear, kind of like Wormtongue did in LotR? |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 05:45:45
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What are you waiting for?! Get writing, man! LOL, no, really. I'd love to see you do something like that, Erik.
Things I'd like to see:
A resolution to the aftermath of the LP novels- what is the status of all those transformed drow 100 years later? Will they remain faithful to Eilistraee and/or Vaerhuan? Wiil they try to bring either one back? What about Sshamahth? How have the ones living there fared, and are any of them still around? Did they find more of the Kirras? Well, there's so much I'd like to learn about that situation, I could go on....
Regarding Mithril Hall- Is it still allied, however loosely, with Silverymoon, Nesme, or the rest of the Silver Marches lands? How does Many-Arrows fit into the current political landscape? Apologies if this has been mentioned in the latest Drizzt novels, but I've not yet read them, and a sourcebook on this area would be great. Even a story or novel detailing some of the politics and characters there would be great. Actually, I think I'd prefer a novel or story. Bruenor and Pwent were great, but I'd like to see some of the other dwarves take the stage for a change.
Cormanthyr and Myth Drannor- One of my favorite regions of the Realms, I'd like to know what the current situation is there, especially the Twisted Tower, Elven Court, and Myth Drannor itself. I'd like to include the Dalelands in this, as well, Are the elves still actively taking back the area, or are there still areas too dnagerous to venture? Did they manage to completely clean up the city, or are there still demons or other fell creatures lurking there, hidden and waiting?
Neverwinter- What about the aftermath of the primordial there, and the city's destruction? How badly did they fare, and what about the tieflings and the agents of Tam in the region- are they still major players? Are there any new groups active?
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The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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CorellonsDevout
Great Reader
USA
2708 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 05:59:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
What are you waiting for?! Get writing, man! LOL, no, really. I'd love to see you do something like that, Erik.
Things I'd like to see:
A resolution to the aftermath of the LP novels- what is the status of all those transformed drow 100 years later? Will they remain faithful to Eilistraee and/or Vaerhuan? Wiil they try to bring either one back? What about Sshamahth? How have the ones living there fared, and are any of them still around? Did they find more of the Kirras? Well, there's so much I'd like to learn about that situation, I could go on....
Regarding Mithril Hall- Is it still allied, however loosely, with Silverymoon, Nesme, or the rest of the Silver Marches lands? How does Many-Arrows fit into the current political landscape? Apologies if this has been mentioned in the latest Drizzt novels, but I've not yet read them, and a sourcebook on this area would be great. Even a story or novel detailing some of the politics and characters there would be great. Actually, I think I'd prefer a novel or story. Bruenor and Pwent were great, but I'd like to see some of the other dwarves take the stage for a change.
Cormanthyr and Myth Drannor- One of my favorite regions of the Realms, I'd like to know what the current situation is there, especially the Twisted Tower, Elven Court, and Myth Drannor itself. I'd like to include the Dalelands in this, as well, Are the elves still actively taking back the area, or are there still areas too dnagerous to venture? Did they manage to completely clean up the city, or are there still demons or other fell creatures lurking there, hidden and waiting?
Neverwinter- What about the aftermath of the primordial there, and the city's destruction? How badly did they fare, and what about the tieflings and the agents of Tam in the region- are they still major players? Are there any new groups active?
Oh yes, I would love to know the results of LP too (as you and have been discussing in other threads). There is much left unresolved there.
Have you read Blades of the Moonsea by Richard Baker? (I might have asked you this already. My apologizes if I did). One of the settings in there is post-Spellplague (1479) Myth Drannor. I don't know if you've read Anthology of the Elves, but the last story in there is about an elf named Daried and it takes place during the events in the Last Mythal trilogy. Daried makes a "guest star" appearance in Blades of the Moonsea.
Of course, I love elves, so anything about them I want lol |
Sweet water and light laughter |
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The Hidden Lord
Learned Scribe
148 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 06:10:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
EVERYTHING in FR is written from the perspective that Elminster visits Ed in his home and gives him information.
I would like to humbly offer, with all due respect, that NOT EVERYTHING in FR is written from the perspective of Elminster conveying the happenings of the Realms to Mr. Greenwood.
Eric Scott de Bie, were your novels written from the perspective of Elminster telling Greenwood about the events of Downshadow?
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What that means is the entire setting is HEARSAY, and inadmissible as proof of anything. Once you start deciding which lore is more 'canon', you are falling directly into the opinion arena. No-one's opinion - not even designers other then Ed - is more 'correct' then any other person who is a fan of the setting (this assuming the designer in question is a fan of the setting).
I respectfully disagree. While the 'unreliable narrator' concept is compelling, especially its use in a shared-world.
I think I may have inadequately conveyed my perspective; it appears to me that you play it a little loose with canon. Whereas I take canon events literally, you seem more willing than I to 'spin' canon in a way that does not reflect what actually occured.
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I read something, and I interpret its meaning. Everyone does that, I had this same (rather heated) argument several years ago with Lord Karsus concerning the Elves and some stuff we were both reading in Elaine's Evermeet novel. We were both reading the exact same passages, and getting something completely different out of them.
You see, that is the problem. When referring to canon, it is best to NOT make ones own interpretation, in my humble opinion. It is a lot easier, and more useful, to describe what WAS, not what one WISHES IT WAS.
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The entire RotAW series is based around the premise of a Weave that split when Mytryl fell.
That is one aspect of the premise, yes.
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To say that never happened is to dismiss the basic premise of the series.
No, it's not.
But, as a quick aside: Do you believe that the lowest Prince of Shade completely understands the cosmological truths surrounding Mystryl? I humbly believe that he does/did not, but your opinion of the Princes of Thultanthar may be different.
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It is not just mentioned once - it is referenced numerous times throughout the book, and not only does Malik desperately want 'Whole Magic' (and it is IMPOSSIBLE for him to lie), but Shar even steps in an steals it right out from under him (which tells me that Shar either agreed with all of that, or she is a complete idiot).
I don't understand why it would be idiotic to reclaim a "symbol of" Shars "control over the Shadow Weave", (The Sorceror pg 126) but you are free to believe it so.
Also, there is no indication that it was Shar who seized the Karsestone, although Khelben, Laeral, Malik and others believed it so.
(I think it was actually Mystra, but the whole thing is left ambiguous.)
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Now, I would go so far as to say that it didn't truly split,
That makes sense. It is canon that the Shadow Weave was created by Shar upon the birth of Mystra.
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We know that Mytryl was the 'goddess of all magic' (although I still contend there were several forms of magic she never had say over). We know as of the 3e era that the Shadoweave exists, putting the lie to the 'goddess of all magic' thing. It wasn't created in 3e - it supposedly existed before then, but was only made public in 3e (folks found out about it).
The Netheril: Empire of Magic box does intimate that Mystryl was the goddess of all magic.
There were a few who knew of Shars Shadow Weave before 1372DR, (FRCS pg. 57).
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So if Mystryl was the goddess of all magic, and Mystra isn't (we have proof of both), how can you deny that at some point in time something happened that made her lose control over a portion of the power she once held? Denning offers one (very good) explanation, but whether thats the exact, correct explanation doesn't matter. what matters is she had control over 'all magic' (excluding runic and Plume, etc), and then she didn't. The Karsestone was composed of something that is no longer available on Toril - Whole Magic. You can call it 'Raw Magic', or whatever else you want - those are just names. The existence of the split in power in undeniable.
I am aware of no canon which indicates that Mystra is not the goddess of all magic.
Could you please indicate the source of this proof?
Also, no where in the RotAW trilogy is it indicated, from the perspective of omniscient narration, that the Karsestone is composed of Whole, Raw, of Flame-broiled magic.
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If shadow Weave magic isn't from a missing half of the Weave, then where is it from? Aren't you the one who said it wasn't umbral energy either (another "I know all things" statement from you, BTW)? So which is it? Is it the other half of the Weave, or is it an entirely different power-source? You can't have it both ways.
Actually, everyone can have it in both the ways you describe above... but please allow me to ask:
Where is the Weave from?
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Are you saying, in your professional opinion, no-one should bother reading RotAW because its 'just a pack of lies'?
It's not my favorite novel, but its a fun yarn spun in the Grand Tradition of the Forgotten Realms. |
Edited by - The Hidden Lord on 18 Oct 2012 06:17:51 |
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Lord Bane
Senior Scribe
Germany
479 Posts |
Posted - 18 Oct 2012 : 09:16:36
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Dominance through economic power as stated is a way to achieve control and thus establishing rule, it does work in Banes ways, putting him in the "open assault" category is not how banites work most of the time. Why is it that nobody ever realises that Bane is subtle in his ways?
The Zhentarim are part of the banite section as they were created with the aid of priests of Bane, the strongest force besides the mages were the followers of Bane and it wouldn´t surprise me if alot of mages were banites aswell within the organisation.
The Zhentarim and Bane are one and the same during most of their existance and this combination made it the best villain force in the realms. Mind you, there were other faiths within the Zhentarim for not every Black Network agent is a banite, but the power that made the Zhentarim what people love them for what they are is founded on the ties between the Black Network and the Church of Bane.
Manshoon is a tyrant, Bane is the god of tyranny, they have a mutual ground there and Manshoon did struck an alliance with the Church of Bane before because he and they work in similar ways, both try to control and extend their influence.
If one major deity is fitting for the Zhentarim, it is not Cyric, Mask, Shar, Waukeen or any other, but Bane. |
The driving force in the multiverse is evil, for it forces good to act. |
Edited by - Lord Bane on 18 Oct 2012 13:41:45 |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e) THE SEQUEL
