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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 22:26:30
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Gust, thanks for your analysis and opinions, but this is the wrong place for them. This thread is about an all-inclusive approach which brings together all the different eras and encourages you to play in all eras. And that's exactly what WotC is doing.
WotC is re-releasing its old products (possibly updated with stuff that got cut by editing the first time around) and all its new FR products are going the way of edition-neutral (as in, you can use the FR products with any edition of FR play). There is no reboot or retcon. The Realms is moving on, honoring all the lore that has been released before (ALL of it), and becoming better than ever.
I appreciate your upsetness with 4e FR, but we're moving past that. We're moving forward. If you want to talk about how to pull things together, great. This thread is not the place to cast aspersions on past decisions.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 22:37:50
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I think, that many of the old upset fans like lots of consistent lore.
If they are to be convinced to play in realms after the spellplague events is it important:
a) A massive amount of lore has to be available. Source books, volo guides, detailed time lines, maps from every decade etc
b) Detailed info on what has happened with the realms there disappared
c) Fixes to some of the major damage (death of gods,...)
d) Slowdown in realmshaking events and instead a large geographical coverage via sourcebooks.
e) A more positive mood in the realms were you feel you would actually like to live there instead run away in fear |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 29 Aug 2012 22:39:04 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 22:50:50
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Yeah, its a bit late in the game (pun intended) to be complaining about 4e. Obviously they understand they made some big mistakes, and they are trying to rectify them.
There is no way they are going to make 100% of the people 100% happy - NO edition did that. If they can keep 75-80% of the people 75-80% happy, I'd say that was a hit. This more realistic approach - try to please as many fans as possible - is obtainable, I think, and for the first time in 5 years I am interested in buying FR/D&D products again.
Complaining about 4e now is like complaining about using Hydrogen gas to the German company that built the Hindenberg. I'm pretty sure they got that. Its time to build a new vessel that will fly, not crash & burn. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 29 Aug 2012 22:51:17 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 23:08:29
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Well, nostalgia is a powerful emotion to keep old fans happy. There has to be sufficient stuff were they think back upon past campaigns
It does not necessarily have to the same living city, but
1) Beneath a city could be the ruins of a city the old fans used to walk and live in prespellplague.
could create deja-vu experienced like; Hey, that ruined council-chamber, that is the building we used to have meetings in,
2) Lots of beloved characters are dead from time, but their lore could live on, by for instance having some historical statues, historical paintings etc. Well, many of the old fans love lots of lore details
3) The picture of this king can we now find on the coins and so forth |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 29 Aug 2012 : 23:13:49
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| Luiren could be described as an aquatic adventure site, maybe with some gondworshiping haflings there had tried to reclaim a bit of their lost homeland by constructing a dam system inspired from the netherlands |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 01:25:45
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The last proposal should probably be changed to
some gond worshiping gnomes helping the haflings recover part of their homeland by helping out with paperpumps to make it possible to recover part of luiren's territory via dams
Could potentially be made as an adventure in order to let the players help recreate parts of the realm |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 30 Aug 2012 01:27:20 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 02:46:45
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There will be plenty to evoke nostalgia, and if players want to run campaigns in any other era, they will have the tools to do it. That's the whole idea. 
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 03:23:34
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Also, Gust, you should read my realms work, particularly my novel Downshadow. It's full of those little nostalgic references you describe.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 10:36:57
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It will be hard to get myself to open the new FR books. I did read the 4e FR campaign guide when it came out, but have not opened it since then.
I believe, some of the reasons old fans are upset
1) Wizards kind of went crazy, but all those there had played wizards got very angry to hear that was the fate their retired adventure characters would receive.
2) Places were people retired at the end of campaigns or roleplayed they had their families was nuked. Lots of hafling characters had for instance roleplayed they came from Luiren
3) Lots of priest players felt their old retired characters had been destroyed when the gods died
4) Places were people had made a difference during campaigns were destroyed in a cataclysmic event. People felt, that made their old campaign accomplishments meaningless
Additionally
There are lots of roleplayers there do not like to play in any age except the current one since they do not like to have preordained fate saying there will come a cataclysm destroying the parts of the world were they are creating results.
Some sourcebook ideas on what can be done by gaming groups to prevent the spellplague would be a good idea. The new sourcebooks could then be used to create visions of a threatening future there will come unless the players do what is necessary to save the world. Still, there will be old fans, there can not accept playing in a campaign world were canon says there will come a cataclysm.
The huge amount of lore for FR had after all attracted many fans there like to play according to canon since they liked performing research in their source books and novels and discussing the world with other players or DM's. They are now having a major problem with FR. They can not accept canon (see point 1 to 4), but at the same time can they not accept making a major campaign deviation from Canon since that would nullify the reason there were attracted to FR |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 11:51:28
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In order to increase old fan acceptance of the new ages of FR do I believe it is necessary with canon stuff like
Retired adventures living in area xx there was destoyed in the cataclysm managed through heroic acts to save lots of local people or via desperate magic (for instance by sacrificing their life) to timeshift an area into the future or ... |
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Lord Snowblood
Acolyte
Australia
25 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 12:58:29
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The Divine Order of things.......
At the dawn of the two worlds there were the sisters Selune & Shar, reflected light and shadow, neither bright nor dark. They warred and during battle Selune threw her magical might at her sister. As it passed through the shadowy form of Shar it ripped away the shadow weave from Shar, thus both goddesses were greatly reduced in power as Mystral was created. While Mystral existed in her early form there was balance in magic just as Ao intended. Through the ages Shar plotted and schemed to take back her power and do to this she needed to destroy Mystral and maybe even Selune. It may have occurred to her that one could not exist without the other, but she didn’t care such was her madness. In the end Shar seduced Karsus and made him her catspaw and the instrument of Mystral's destruction. With Mystrals death and the sundering of the weave Shar took back what she saw as rightfully hers (the shadow weave) and horded her power against the time she would strike down Selune and her children. When Mystra was born she was but half of what Mystral had been, the light side of the weave. To keep her power from Shar should she fall, it was decided to devolve it into various mortals to keep it safe against the time that Shar would surely strike.
The Time of Troubles turned all of Shars plans on their heads but it allowed her to discover the shadow magi, and the only god madder than herself, Cyric. She again groomed these fallible humans to be her catspaws. Unbeknownst to Shar, Mystra and her mother Selune were aware of Shars schemes and laid in plans of their own. Ao would not interfere so long as balance was restored. When Shar struck her power was waxing as she sort hegemony over all magic. The descendents of Karsus were her mortal instruments and Cyric her immortal assassin. For a time the shadow weave was ascendant as Shar began her war upon the weave. It culminated with the rebirth the Netheril ruled by Shadow magi. Cyric struck slaying Mystra and succeeded in tearing apart the weave. This was where Mystra’s and Selune’s preparations and own trap came to the fore. Shar was stripped of her control over the shadow weave just as Mystra’s ‘death’ unleashed the silverweave. The two eventually reunited as the wild weave and after millennium of chaos, balance was once again within reach just as AO intended. Shar's schemes were foiled and all was in flux as Abeir and Toril once again merged for a time. However Mystra was not dead just greatly reduced. Her mortal chosen had been created against this time and allowed her to survive Shar's mad schemes. Shar herself was greatly wounded by the tearing of the weave and retreated back into the shadows to nurse her wounds. Mystra re-emerged slowly as the shards of her portioned power were again gathered from the shattered remains of her mortal chosen. The gate keeper of her power, Elminster was almost destroyed by Shar's war and for a time lost himself and his mind.
So does this help knit all 5 editions together Scott?
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Edited by - Lord Snowblood on 30 Aug 2012 13:03:04 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 13:32:04
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Lord Snowblood, What about inserting a part like "Mystra and her mother Selune were aware of Shars schemes due to divinations performed by Savras"?
One of the complaints i have heard about 4e FR has actually been
Why was gods like Savras and Labelas Enoreth unable to spot the approaching danger to the weave? |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 30 Aug 2012 13:51:15 |
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Lord Snowblood
Acolyte
Australia
25 Posts |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 14:00:03
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lol, well, i just like to see Savras mentioned since it tie up a loose end and i had in fact a player there was playing a wizard diviner at the time 4e FR was released
He was really angry, that gods like Savras and Labelas Enoreth had not been able to see the approaching cataclysmic event since it diminished his character concept
It is not cool to play a diviner wizard when gods of time and divination are unable to spot approaching events of a cataclysmic nature. |
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Lord Snowblood
Acolyte
Australia
25 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 14:00:50
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Then of course there are all the lost legacies left over from the Crown Wars.......the elves saw this cataclysm coming and prepared...after all the Last Mythal didn't just take beings across space............
Oh and I know where WOTC can get a lot of stuff about the past realms........hehehehehehe
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Edited by - Lord Snowblood on 30 Aug 2012 14:04:41 |
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Lord Snowblood
Acolyte
Australia
25 Posts |
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Lord Snowblood
Acolyte
Australia
25 Posts |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 14:09:27
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There is actually an old plot device there can be used to bring the past into the future.
Labelas Enoreth has a temple beyond time, as far as i remember, is it located in the high forest area, but moved outside time but appearing once in a while for a short time for rare moments.
Theoretically, certain learned people, could have received warnings in dreams, that something bad was to happen and that there precense would be needed in the temple beyond time. |
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Lord Snowblood
Acolyte
Australia
25 Posts |
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Lord Snowblood
Acolyte
Australia
25 Posts |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 14:28:59
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| That temple is interesting, since it could also be used as a canon way for sending a group of adventures back in time in order to prevent the spellplague from taking place. |
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Lord Snowblood
Acolyte
Australia
25 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 15:10:11
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Name a region you'd like to run/play a campaign in, pick a focal point (like one city or town), and pick three eras for it to focus on. Then explain why you picked what you did.
I pick the High Forest.....Crown Wars..........Height of Earlanns Greatness.....the time of Earlanns fall........I wrote up a few little bits & pieces for a home campaign & would love to see something more here..... |
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Lord Snowblood
Acolyte
Australia
25 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 15:13:25
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I do think web enhancements for different eras would be cool. Also, though, products should line up with old products from different editions. You could play a gray box game with the actual ogb if you want, etc.
I have a whole bag full if you want them Eric...feel free......
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Edited by - Lord Snowblood on 30 Aug 2012 15:24:20 |
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Lord Snowblood
Acolyte
Australia
25 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 15:17:33
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If you could have ONE god back, who would it be and why?
Eilistraee...not as goddess of drow but as a patron saint like being and guardian of Dark & Green Elves who once followed her and who now live within the old High Moor & southern High Forest......they are crying out for a patron even a demipower at a regional or local level.
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3821 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 15:28:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Lord Snowblood
If you could have ONE god back, who would it be and why?
Eilistraee...not as goddess of drow but as a patron saint like being and guardian of Dark & Green Elves who once followed her and who now live within the old High Moor & southern High Forest......they are crying out for a patron even a demipower at a regional or local level.
This would remove her main charm, tho: her struggle for freedom. She could be a demipower-like being who acts as a guardian for the ''redeemed'' dark elves while still continuing to fight for drow freedom within her possibilities. They were going to ''bring her back'' as archfey and let her continue her old quest (their solution was that she was never actually gone, but gave away her divinity. However it didn't make into canon): this could be extended by adding the protection of the ''new'' race of elves among her goals. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 15:30:39 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 15:37:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
This would remove her main charm, tho: her struggle for freedom. She could be a demipower-like being who acts as a guardian for the ''redeemed'' dark elves while still continuing to fight for drow freedom within her possibilities. They were going to ''bring her back'' as archfey and let her continue her old quest (their solution was that she was never actually gone, but gave away her divinity. However it didn't make into canon): this could be extended by adding the protection of the ''new'' race of elves among her goals.
She is a popular deity choice for priests in many roleplaying groups and players want their priest to receive spells from the deity he / she worship. He / she do not want to receive them from something else. That would after feel as if you were worshiping a green stone in your backyard |
Edited by - Gustaveren on 30 Aug 2012 15:53:09 |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3821 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 15:52:51
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Well, I know she's very popular, and I like her too (she's my favourite deity in the FR, with Vhaeraun). However WotC will never bring her back as a goddess (I don't know why, but that's it). Heck, they cut even what the authors of a recently published sourcebook wrote about her and her brother as archfey (I only hope that they will release this material nonetheless), and this speaks clearly. However since after the Sundering a certain number of gods will be brought back by Ao, and since who will be a god again won't be known (in-setting and out of it), it may easily be that Eilistraee will be ''promoted'' again to goddess and characters will still receive spell from her, as it may be that she will remain an archfey and your characters praying to her will receive spell from someone else, without being aware of it tho (so basically nothing would change for them). So you may simply say that Ao gave her back her status, promoting her and this wouldn't contradict canon.
What matters to me is that content and stories about her and her followers set in the new era will be published. Then handling the rest in home campaigns will be easy |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 15:56:45 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 15:57:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Irennan
Well, I know she's very popular, and I like her too (she's my favourite deity in the FR, with Vhaeraun). However WotC will never bring her back as a goddess (I don't know why, but that's it). Heck, they cut even what the authors of a recently published sourcebook wrote about her and her brother as archfey (I only hope that they will release this material nonetheless), and this speaks clearly. However since after the Sundering a certain number of gods will be brought back by Ao, and since who will be a god again won't be known (in-setting and out of it), it may easily be that Eilistraee will be ''promoted'' again to goddess and characters will still receive spell from her, as it may be that she will remain an archfey and your characters praying to her will receive spell from someone else, without being aware of it tho (so basically nothing would change for them). Or you may simply house rule her to be a goddess, or archfey to be able to hand out spells...
What matters to me is that content and stories about her and her followers set in the new era will be published. Then handling the rest in home campaigns will be easy
It is a bad solutions for GM's if she is not a deity.
Basically, as a GM is it an advantage, if you can cut off spell access for a priest if he do something serious wrong compared to the beliefs of his faith. Kind of difficult to argue, that elistrae has cut of spell access for doing something against her beliefs if she is not the one granting the spells. |
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Irennan
Great Reader
Italy
3821 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 16:01:30
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As I said, canon won't establish anymore whether a deity is alive or not (or at least, this seems their current take on it). So in game problems will be non-existent.
What matters is that content with her will be published for the new era (and surely publishing the cut material about the siblings from the Menzo book would be a good step in this direction), as it won't focus on Eilistraee herself, but on her followers. So whether she's actually an archfey or a goddess wouldn't matter, because none will know it (in-setting characters, and even players): It will be DM's choice. |
Mathematics is the art of giving the same name to different things. |
Edited by - Irennan on 30 Aug 2012 16:03:46 |
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 30 Aug 2012 : 16:10:00
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It is another reason to not like 5e FR
All the house ruling you will have to do in order to get a working campaign world it will be fun for old fans to play in
Seems to me, it is kind of critical for priest characters to know if the being the worship have a tendency to
a) communicate with his / her faithful via dreams / visions
b) can grant spells and if you risk being denied access if you deviate from acceptable behaviour
c) If there has been events with avatar appearances
d) If your soul will be protected after death if you worship this being. I still remember the wall of the faithless from earlier editions. |
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One Canon, One Story, One Realms (5e) THE SEQUEL
