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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
 Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 02:32:02
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Do you feel the realms lacks diversity? Should they include more diverse character elements in the future?
It seems to me like novels set in places that could differ from medieval Europe (such as the Unholy in Thay series) are still pretty much European oriented. Locations like Chult, Dupar, and so forth exist but are rarely discussed or their people shown. The only Chultan character I can think of is from the video game Neverwinter Nights.
Alystarra suggested in the thread (not about diversity) that perhaps authors are writing what they know. However, we know Lisa Smedman is a lesbian but from what I can recall no character in her books set in the realms (I haven't read the yuan-ti related ones...) contain elements of characters presenting non-heterosexual orientations. Unless she wrote in her War of the Spider Queen novel about Quenthel/Danifae (But then that is portraying their same sex relationship in a not very flattering light and relegating it to evil Drow)
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
242 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 02:38:03
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I really liked the Shining South, since I felt it was both Realmsian yet a very exotic region, and definitely not pseudo European.
Big shame that it was very badly ravaged by the Spellplague. |
Edited by - deserk on 23 Aug 2012 02:41:19 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 02:53:16
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Personally, I think the Realms is fine as far as diversity goes, but I would not be against a change.
Then again, amongst my rather diverse group of friends, who range almost as widely as the political spectrum, the kind of diversity you speak of doesn't really impact our day-day lives. If you were to write a story about me, and - for example - a gay friend of mine and our adventures, you might never write about his gender preference other than perhaps a passing mention. It would have about as much impact on the story of our adventure as Dumbledore's did on Harry Potter.
Gender just isn't an issue to me. I merely want a good story. If, in their effort to make the Realms more appealing to everyone, they force it into a story and thereby make the story seem stiff, I'll be disappointed. But I doubt that'll happen. :)
Location-wise, I'd love some more stuff in Chult and the surrounding areas. The PS2 game, Demon Stone, took you there for a brief bit, and I loved it. Wouldn't mind more of it. I'd also like a "tales of the Pirate Isles" kind of short story collection. That would be fun. (And if it's already been done, please tell me!f |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 02:55:22
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| Yes, she did indeed portray those two in the LP series as being such- or more precisely, Quenthel was Danifae's Mistress (Danifae was a battle-captive at the beginning) and was even insinuated as having been so in the S&M sense as well. So were Ryld and Phaeraun in WotSQ, to a certain degree. Danifae seems to have been bi, from what I could see, playing both sides of the field whenever it suited her needs. (ie- if she thought it would get her what she wanted.) She used her looks- which were apparently very attractive even for a drow- to sucker others into playing into her hands. But for the most part, the authors have been white men- not that there's anything wrong with that, as it's a gaming world as much as a novel world, and gamers have been predominantly white males for decades. Then too, it's only been in the last decade or so that having non-standard sexuality has begun to be accepted more openly and widely, so perhaps the idea of such diversity in fantasy fiction is simply still in its infancy, as it were. We may well see more of that as time goes by and alternative lifestyles become more accepted or tolerated. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Gabrielle_H
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 03:16:20
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I'm in favor of diversity in the way that ZeshinX and Erik Scott de Bie mentioned it in the Candlekeep Seminar wrap-up scroll -- that is, in ways that give the author freedom to write what they want to write, rather than instituting a diversity "quota."
I think that anyone who reads the "Ask Ed" scroll knows that sexuality is quite fluid in the realms. I'm always happy to see a bit more of that sort of thing when it contributes to story. It is a part of the world, albeit a quiet part, so showing it where it's relevant helps to round out the world. It shows more "slices of life," which is where Realms novels really shine for me.
But I'm not going to complain when novels are written about straight, mainstream characters, either. I'm a fan of engaging story in all its forms.
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Gabrielle Harbowy, scribe and editrix
http://www.gabrielle-edits.com
twitter: @gabrielle_h |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 03:34:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Gabrielle_H
I'm in favor of diversity in the way that ZeshinX and Erik Scott de Bie mentioned it in the Candlekeep Seminar wrap-up scroll -- that is, in ways that give the author freedom to write what they want to write, rather than instituting a diversity "quota."
I think that anyone who reads the "Ask Ed" scroll knows that sexuality is quite fluid in the realms. I'm always happy to see a bit more of that sort of thing when it contributes to story. It is a part of the world, albeit a quiet part, so showing it where it's relevant helps to round out the world. It shows more "slices of life," which is where Realms novels really shine for me.
But I'm not going to complain when novels are written about straight, mainstream characters, either. I'm a fan of engaging story in all its forms.
Thanks, that's what I wanted to say, but I don't think I got anywhere close to the right words.
And I have When the Villian Comes Home loaded up and ready to read next on the iPad! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 23 Aug 2012 03:36:01 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 03:41:56
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This was partially brought up as a thread to my post made on this thread: http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=16861&whichpage=2
To which, of course, I now apply here on this new thread. I tried Googling for the long-lost (and I still am sure it was deleted) thread on the Wizard forums, even tried the "Wayback Machine" page, but nothing.
But Ed did post there, and I don't know how often he posted on the old Forgotten Realms 3E WotC forums, but it was a surprise when he did. And it was something he, too, was fighting on the inside to bring a change to. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 04:43:35
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The Realms strikes me as very diverse.
It might actually be a bit too diverse. Adding Maztica, Kara Tur, the Hordelands, Zakhara etc gave me the impression that designers in the 90s were almost trying to cram in all Earth’s continents and major cultures.
I don't think most of Faerun is especially 'European.' Compare it with Kara Tur. Kara Tur is much, much closer to a historical and geographic real world model. It was intentionally designed to be a fantasy Asia, down to having countries that are clearly meant as analogs of real places. Tabot= Tibet, Koryo=Korea, etc. In contrast, Faerun has a lot of elements that more closely resemble things from fantasy literature, along with weird stuff invented for the game. I also see more than a bit of North America in some parts of Faerun, although those elements are subtle. It might just be my interpretation.
If your concern is diversity of skin color; you don’t need to even venture outside canonical Faerun to find bronze, parchment,brown, sallow, mahogany, pallid, tan, etc. tones. Hair, eyes, etc. show up in various combinations, including a few that are pretty darned rare or strange in our world. And all that is just with humans.
If your concern is sexuality, I’ll answer that in two parts:
Realms Fiction: I haven’t read very many of the novels. I wouldn’t really notice or care if there were a complete absence of references to same sex attraction, transgendered characters, etc., although I’m not offended by the inclusion of such themes or characters if it makes for a good story. I would not like it if I felt that an author was simply tossing in token homosexual characters-- or worse, preaching ‘political correctness.’ Save the preaching for church, and the real world political stuff for the real world.
Game material: As a general guideline, I am in favor of avoiding or downplaying controversial real world social issues in D&D publications. This has nothing to do with how I think other people should run the game (I don’t presume to tell anyone how to do that) and it doesn’t necessarily reflect how I run my own games. It’s just a better approach for a game with D&D’s history and fan base/market. YMMV.
If you have a different approach in mind, then I encourage you to develop your home game in that fashion. Write it up and post it for us to read, if you like.
I'm sticking a big old YMMV on all of this. :) |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 23 Aug 2012 04:47:40 |
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Tarlyn
Learned Scribe
USA
315 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 04:58:16
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| Additional diversity is good for the setting. Just please keep real world diversity issues out of FR. I don't want to read novels that are "clever" political commentary. The realms in the past has not had a lot of human racial tension / sexual orientation issues. Non-heterosexual / non-european heroes are fine and fit in the setting well. However, I don't see those heroes needing to overcome social pressures, because of their sexual orientation, or ethnicity. There definately has been a lot of nationalism such as the Amish / Waterdeep rivalry. However, between human groups I think nationalism is the major ism that causes conflict not skin color / sexual orientation in FR. Also, there is plenty of racial tension between various fantasy races such as gold elves having superiority issues. |
Tarlyn Embersun |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 05:26:08
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quote:
Originally posted by deserk
I really liked the Shining South, since I felt it was both Realmsian yet a very exotic region, and definitely not pseudo European.
Big shame that it was very badly ravaged by the Spellplague.
I'll echo this.
Places like Halruaa had some of the earliest Realms products tied to it (original Shining South and the FR comic), some of the deepest historical ties (survivor and successor of Netheril), and prominent people who were non-European or were mixed (Netherese and Lapal) and weren't inherently 'evil' (dark = bad trope).
Now I'm not saying the Spellplague purposely did this, but take a look at the most devastated areas (and how the events affect certain areas by circumstance):
- Halruaa into wasteland
- The Shaar into the Shaar Desolation ... on both sides of the Underchasm.
- Lapaliiya, Tashalar, Thindol: Flooded, many cities in ruins.
- Dambrath formerly ruled by half-drow, but now ruled by the formerly oppressed Arkaiun barbarians, who have the fair skinned, light haired look of northerners.
- Chult: Now an island, Mezro in ruins.
- Var the Golden now Var the Drowned.
- Mulhorand (peudo-Egyptian) subsumed by High Imaskar. They may look similar, but it seems the Imaskar are usually presented as more European in portrayals.
- Unther (pseudo-Mesopotamian) subsumed by the dragonborn of Tymanther.
- Chessenta (pseudo-Greek, non-Anglo-Saxon/Germanic) partly subsumed by genasi from Shyr.
- Thay (pseudo-Egyptian) now an undead empire.
- Calimshan (pseudo-Arabic) reconquered by their former genie overlords and their genasi descendants.
- The Vilhon reach, despite being mostly Chondathan which is the basis of most of the Western Heartlands, the area had a more non-Western European vibe compared to further north, enhanced by the open Yuan-Ti heritage of Hlondeth, the expansionist mercantile empire of Chondath, and more recently in 3e the psionic empire of Jhaamdath. Most of this is now wiped out by the Plaguewrought Lands.
- Turmish (mahogany-skinned) formerly an open, friendly, and proud nation now more cautious and suspicious of outsiders.
- Anauroch (Bedine, pseudo-Arabic, though not native) conquered by the Netherese.
It really seems like the places which had the most non-European vibe were put through the shredder during the Spellplague. There is barely a 'nice' or stable place left amongst these areas.
Again, I'm not saying this happened on purpose, at least not for this specific purpose. This is the unfortunate result of unintended consequences.
The purpose was obviously to reduce the populated periphery areas to make the main areas (Sword Coast and Western Heartlands) feel more isolated (points of light). It just happens to be the periphery areas were the places with the more non-European peoples and cultures resided.
WotC really should have realized what they proposed was to wipe out areas around the equivalent of Western Europe to make them look more isolated. Guess what? What areas are around Western Europe? Eastern Europe, Northern Africa, and the Near East.
While WotC was on their subtractive binge, narrowing the focus of the setting towards the pseudo-European areas. Paizo took time to expand their setting Golarion. They have many of the cultural equivalents as the Realms. They provided counterparts to their main area Avistan (Europe). In Garund they have Africa, Casmarron is their Western Asia, Tian Xia is their East Asia. There is enough to play extended campaigns for each of those 'periphery' areas. Some have adventure paths set in or near them. Some have gazetteers about them.
I can't say which approach is more successful, but I take noticed when alternative options are presented rather than taken away*.
* Well to be fair, it's not impossible to play those other ethnicities, but prominence and status in the world is greatly reduced. Coupled with their already low profile in previous editions, this was not a positive development for the Realms in my opinion.
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Quale
Master of Realmslore
1757 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 08:58:37
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For me the Realms cultures do lack diversity, you have some historically inspired cultures, e.g. the Moonshaes, North, bits of Damara, Rashemen, Thay, and the Lands of Intrigue, Old Empires, Durpar, Hordelands but there is no medium that connects them like in real world, they exist as cultural islands. I've always wanted more cultures to be defined between them, not places and npcs with names that sound like they're from generic fantasy names generator.
As for sexual diversity, it should also include places where people are not open-minded (e.g. Calimshan), I'm for including real world issues cause those are problems the pcs could work against. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 10:13:32
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IME, the great majority of gamers are gaming for the escapism and to hang out with friends, not to grapple with real world social or political issues in the context of an RPG.
I'd be turned off if my DM told me that it was his assumption that our PCs would engage in a struggle for 'open minded' sexual mores in Calimshan. No thanks.
(As an aside, I'm curious as to why Quale assumes that PCs would wish to work against such cultural norms, and not accept or uphold them. Maybe he only means the PCs played by his players? He presumably knows his own players and their PCs well.)
I don't see any need to alter the presentation of commerical products to suit that sort of play.
Hasbro has to think about what sells well in the marketplace.
As ever, YMMV.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 13:52:44
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Very in favour of Diversity.
Ring of Winter had a bunch of interesting Chultans. The Lost Empires books had some good diversity.
I have no problem with Authors adding,depth to thier novels by tackling social issues, weather ones of class, race, gender, sexual orientiom or others. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 16:16:28
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I'd be in favor of a culture of openness in the products, whether that means writing non-white/European-style heroes (seriously--do a count), addressing racial/sexuality tension, etc. Definitely it shouldn't be quotas (the worst thing an author can do is do "diverse characters" wrong), real world issues (though some commentary is ok, as all writing is commenting on our world to some degree), and your characters shouldn't be mouthpieces for an agenda (though see my caveat above). I just want authors/designers to be encouraged to embrace diversity, to reflect the demands of a shifting audience.
Take Drizzt, for example. Now of course, he skews things because of the whole rampant popularity thing, but let's boil it down to the facts. He is not a white person, and he deals with extreme racism basically everywhere he goes. One of the dominant themes in his struggle/story is overcoming adversity that hits him because of his skin color and (presumably) evil background. And that's a really damn good story.
Now let's suggest for a second that an author (me, for instance) were to write an openly gay male hero. What sorts of challenges would he face as the main character? As a secondary/supporting character? Would you be more or less likely to read the book based on how significant he is to the plot? Does his presence inspire or offend you? What hurdles does he face getting you hooked into his story?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 16:32:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'd be in favor of a culture of openness in the products, whether that means writing non-white/European-style heroes (seriously--do a count), addressing racial/sexuality tension, etc. Definitely it shouldn't be quotas (the worst thing an author can do is do "diverse characters" wrong), real world issues (though some commentary is ok, as all writing is commenting on our world to some degree), and your characters shouldn't be mouthpieces for an agenda (though see my caveat above). I just want authors/designers to be encouraged to embrace diversity, to reflect the demands of a shifting audience.
Take Drizzt, for example. Now of course, he skews things because of the whole rampant popularity thing, but let's boil it down to the facts. He is not a white person, and he deals with extreme racism basically everywhere he goes. One of the dominant themes in his struggle/story is overcoming adversity that hits him because of his skin color and (presumably) evil background. And that's a really damn good story.
Now let's suggest for a second that an author (me, for instance) were to write an openly gay male hero. What sorts of challenges would he face as the main character? As a secondary/supporting character? Would you be more or less likely to read the book based on how significant he is to the plot? Does his presence inspire or offend you? What hurdles does he face getting you hooked into his story?
Cheers
I may be naive, but I dont see many places in the realms where it matters. I'm not sure about certain peoples, like the various barbarian tribes(I have a lack of knowledge of their culutre and many others in the realms) It might be easier for some to accept him as a secondary characters than as the "lead", but it wouldnt bother me as long as his behavior fits the characters you craft. Thats not going to be a problem with you. You dont write gay characters or hell even straight ones.....your writing to me, is true to the real world. You write about people being people. Some may like ale, some may not. But you would not write a story an alcholic, down on his luck bard. You would write about a down on his luck bard. Who is an alcholic. Make I am once more naive, but dont you write about characters living theirs live....and oh yeah, they happen to do this or that. But you dont let a characters preferences for anything from drink, food , sex, shoes, their skin color, alignment, etc...be the characters, they are just facets of them and not the story.
Wow, I rambled again....sorry for that.
His presence would neither inspire me or detract from my enjoyment of said tale.....unless, and this is a big one, you wrote him as an uninspiring sport that you cant root for. Same goes for the flip side, if you write him as utterly boring and uniteresting....he would very much detract from the story. But as I have never had that experience with any of you characters, I would expect a good story. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Edited by - The Red Walker on 23 Aug 2012 16:33:20 |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 16:35:38
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| It'd been neat if they added non white writers as well. Imagine Chult as done by an actual African. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 16:47:19
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In most cases being gay wouldn't face the character with hugely different challenges, but apart from anything else I'd like to see such a character, and some of the cultural trappings of homosexuality, for lore's sake.
As to Realms-2008's Europeanization, the stated aim of that was to get rid of unRealmslike bits, but somewhere along the line they failed to distinguish between add-one that were nothing but Earth analogues from the start, regions that had been Earthified by certain authors (the Old Empires) and could have been restored rather than removed . . . and Halruaa. |
Edited by - Faraer on 23 Aug 2012 17:21:35 |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
242 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 16:56:15
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I feel Faerun is already filled with cultures that aren't "white", definitely more so if it's European cultures we're talking about. It's just the FR authors who haven't made stories about characters from those regions.
And also, I don't feel Drizzt's treatment over him being a drow, is any theme reflecting RL racial issues, because that would imply certain RL cultures/races are evil, because drow are an almost completely evil race, which is why they are almost always negatively thought of by surfacers. Being a "good" drow is not a normality. And in Forgotten Realms, and in D&D, there are creatures that exist which are unquestionably evil by nature (devils, demons, etc). |
Edited by - deserk on 23 Aug 2012 17:12:40 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 17:15:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
I'd be in favor of a culture of openness in the products, whether that means writing non-white/European-style heroes (seriously--do a count), addressing racial/sexuality tension, etc. Definitely it shouldn't be quotas (the worst thing an author can do is do "diverse characters" wrong), real world issues (though some commentary is ok, as all writing is commenting on our world to some degree), and your characters shouldn't be mouthpieces for an agenda (though see my caveat above). I just want authors/designers to be encouraged to embrace diversity, to reflect the demands of a shifting audience.
Take Drizzt, for example. Now of course, he skews things because of the whole rampant popularity thing, but let's boil it down to the facts. He is not a white person, and he deals with extreme racism basically everywhere he goes. One of the dominant themes in his struggle/story is overcoming adversity that hits him because of his skin color and (presumably) evil background. And that's a really damn good story.
Now let's suggest for a second that an author (me, for instance) were to write an openly gay male hero. What sorts of challenges would he face as the main character? As a secondary/supporting character? Would you be more or less likely to read the book based on how significant he is to the plot? Does his presence inspire or offend you? What hurdles does he face getting you hooked into his story?
Cheers
The openly gay male hero wouldn't face any major hurdles with me, so long as he wasn’t a prop, token, or author mouthpiece.
If the novel were all about his angst and his struggles for social acceptance, I'd probably give it a pass unless it happened to be phenomenally well-written. That just doesn't interest me.
I wouldn't want to read graphic homosexual scenes.
But I wouldn't really want a lot of graphic sex, period. That sort of thing often reads as unintentional comedy or cheap smut, unless very well done.
I wouldn't want to read social commentary or political advocacy disguised as fiction, but you have already neatly addressed that point.
The novels are a more appropriate place to deal with certain themes and character traits than are the game books, IMO. Literature isn’t gaming, even though there is often a relationship between the two.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 17:20:48
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Do you feel the realms lacks diversity? Should they include more diverse character elements in the future?
It seems to me like novels set in places that could differ from medieval Europe (such as the Unholy in Thay series) are still pretty much European oriented. Locations like Chult, Dupar, and so forth exist but are rarely discussed or their people shown. The only Chultan character I can think of is from the video game Neverwinter Nights.
Alystarra suggested in the thread (not about diversity) that perhaps authors are writing what they know. However, we know Lisa Smedman is a lesbian but from what I can recall no character in her books set in the realms (I haven't read the yuan-ti related ones...) contain elements of characters presenting non-heterosexual orientations. Unless she wrote in her War of the Spider Queen novel about Quenthel/Danifae (But then that is portraying their same sex relationship in a not very flattering light and relegating it to evil Drow)
Just wondering... what about the Unholy series in Thay did you consider European? The only immediately apparent flaw that went against the grain of the culture that I really found was that the griffin legion was filled with more warrior types than mage types (and little to no red wizards)... but I forgive that minor transgression against canon in that the author made a good characterization, and its easily reconcilable against canon that there may be different regiments in the griffin legion (some that are more physically oriented and some that are exclusively red wizards). Granted, its been about 5 years since I read them, so a lot of its hazy again, but I don't recall anything specifically European about it. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 18:44:50
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I would lie each area of The Realms portrayed in novels as somewhat different from every other area - I do agree that it all feels the same to me (only in the novels, not the sourcebooks). The psuedo-Medieval European flavor is very pervasive. I don't get that in other settings (SoT, WoT, ME, Narnia, Fire & Ice, etc, etc).
I bash RAS a lot (mostly because of continuity problems), but I always say he is one of FR's best authors (I shouldn't have to say this - he's the only one I think has gone 'main stream'). Look at the novel Spine of the World - Luskan feels like no other place in the realms, with its 'prisoners carnival' (or whatever that was called). There were certain things that set Luskan apart, as it should be. When I read other authors works, a waterdeep story could just as easily be set in Neverwinter, or Suzail - it all feels the same. I want every region to feel different, not just be different in sourcebooks. 'Local flavor' is key to this, and we need more of it.
EDIT: Reluctantly, I will have to admit that in 4e, Waterdeep finally developed its own flavor, IMO. It no longer felt the same as every other big city. The 'Ed Greenwood Presents Waterdeep' series was really the first time I found the city interesting (even though I hated the changes, simply because they were changes). Earlier novels set there simply didn't impart any distinctive flavor to me (although I still enjoyed them a lot, it just felt like Suzail 2.0). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Aug 2012 18:50:43 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 20:21:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Now let's suggest for a second that an author (me, for instance) were to write an openly gay male hero. What sorts of challenges would he face as the main character? As a secondary/supporting character? Would you be more or less likely to read the book based on how significant he is to the plot? Does his presence inspire or offend you? What hurdles does he face getting you hooked into his story?
Cheers
Let's throw political correctness out the window here for a minute, because the politically correct answer is that I shouldn't care. However, the real truth is I've read the fantasy books by Mercedes Lackey (granted been about 15 years) with a gay male hero. I didn't enjoy them, and yes it did have something to do with it making me feel a little ill. On the reverse, since someone mentioned the "lesbian" scene hinted at in WotSQ, I was perfectly fine with that. I also don't want to see Brokeback Mountain. Some would call me bad names for that... and I call them close minded, backwards people who feel that they think they need to guide everyone into seeing things their way. There is nothing wrong with not being into something else... and thus, if FR were to start pushing things into their products that quite frankly turn me off, they wouldn't get my money.... and that's the core thing here, FR needs to be about what the customer wants. Now, if there's a subset of their customer base that wants something like that, and they can feed that subset without upsetting the rest of their base and still make a profit at it... then go ahead... but understand the core mantra here... produce what people want AND you'll make money at. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 20:45:29
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Sleyvas, you are making perfect sense. I know lots of gay people (boy, does that sound too much like, "some of my best friends are..."), and I know for a fact that many of them are just as 'grossed out' when they see heterosexual scenes.
And I admit that I did turn my head away a couple of times during certain scenes of True Blood - a series I like a lot, but sometimes is a little too... vivid.
Here's a perfect example what not to do: Oz
Not the 'Wizard of.." - I am talking about the prison series. It started out great, and then turned into this soft-porn prison love fest that drove most of the heterosexual fans away from the franchise.
So yeah, there is nothing wrong with thses types of characters. In fact, I would go so far as to say there would be something wrong if there weren't (especially in the Realms), but it should not be the main focus of the story. It could even be a sub-plot, and could even be humorous (imagine the gay protagonist 'flirting' with the antagonist, just to throw him off-kilter), albeit that is a scary line for a writer to walk (I wouldn't attempt it - it would probably be viewed as condescending).
I guess what I am saying is that all forms of diversity should be shown in The Realms, because thats one of the great things about The Realms, but it shouldn't take from the action/adventure side of the story. If an author can find a way for it to add to the main plot, then more power to him, but that starts to risk being called 'indulgent'. I think that is why most authors shy away from those types of social situations - its hard to 'get it right', where it doesn't piss-off one side or the other.
And BTW, if you watch True Blood, you get the idea (after awhile) that all vampires are bi. I guess when you think about it, that makes perfect sense. After, they have the 'boredom' factor going for them (something I think a lot of 'rock star' types fall prey to), and they also have the "you can't be picky about what you eat" thing as well. I like the series because it makes you think - these are things I had never considered about vampires before. Its not done in an 'icky' (just for shock-value) way, its down very subtly at times just to let you know these are very different creatures then humans. They do not react to it in any way themselves, because it is all perfectly natural (to them). Good stuff. I think thats an example of it being 'done right'. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 23 Aug 2012 21:29:43 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 21:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sleyvas, you are making perfect sense. I know lots of gay people (boy, does that sound too much like, "some of my best friends are..."), and I know for a fact that many of them are just as 'grossed out' when they see heterosexual scenes.
And I admit that I did turn my head away a couple of times during certain scenes of True Blood - a series a like a lot, but sometimes is a little too... vivid.
Here's a perfect example what not to do: Oz
Not the 'Wizard of.." - I am talking about the prison series. It started out great, and then turned into this soft-porn prison love fest that drove most of the heterosexual fans away from the franchise.
So yeah, there is nothing wrong with thses types of characters. In fact, I would go so far as to say there would be something wrong if there weren't (especially in the Realms), but it should not be the main focus of the story. It could even be a sub-plot, and could even be humorous (imagine the gay protagonist 'flirting' with the antagonist, just to throw him off-kilter), albeit that is a scary line for a writer to walk (I wouldn't attempt it - it would probably be viewed as condescending).
I guess what I am saying is that all forms of diversity should be shown in The Realms, because thats one of the great things about The Realms, but it shouldn't take from the action/adventure side of the story. If an author can find a way for it to add to the main plot, then more power to him, but that starts to risk being called 'indulgent'. I think that is why most authors shy away from those types of social situations - its hard to 'get it right', where it doesn't piss-off one side or the other.
And BTW, if you watch True Blood, you get the idea (after awhile) that all vampires are bi. I guess when you think about it, that makes perfect sense. After, they have the 'boredom' factor going for them (something I think a lot of 'rock star' types fall prey to), and they also have the "you can't be picky about what you eat" thing as well. I like the series because it makes you think - these are things I had never considered about vampires before. Its not done in an 'icky' (just for shock-value) way, its down very subtly at times just to let you know these are very different creatures then humans. They do not react to it in any way themselves, because it is all perfectly natural (to them). Good stuff. I think thats an example of it being 'done right'.
You've got a perfect example there with True Blood. I love the show, but yeah, sometimes when they show the medium and his lover... I'm just turning away from the TV and gagging. I'm perfectly fine with them holding hands or something. At the same time, the show has gone into some things that literally me and some friends have discussed at lunch. One example that came up was a discussion about vampires and what would happen if a female one was turned who was still a virgin and they had sex (i.e. would their hymen regenerate). I can imagine some females might consider that disgusting, but the day after that episode we were at lunch and going "they read our minds" (and for those saying how low brow that is.... drop the facade, you know you've talked about some stupid junk with friends). But again, they're pushing an envelope, and if they were to go too far overboard, they could lose their viewers/customers. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 21:07:55
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quote:
Originally posted by sleyvas
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Sleyvas, you are making perfect sense. I know lots of gay people (boy, does that sound too much like, "some of my best friends are..."), and I know for a fact that many of them are just as 'grossed out' when they see heterosexual scenes.
And I admit that I did turn my head away a couple of times during certain scenes of True Blood - a series a like a lot, but sometimes is a little too... vivid.
Here's a perfect example what not to do: Oz
Not the 'Wizard of.." - I am talking about the prison series. It started out great, and then turned into this soft-porn prison love fest that drove most of the heterosexual fans away from the franchise.
So yeah, there is nothing wrong with thses types of characters. In fact, I would go so far as to say there would be something wrong if there weren't (especially in the Realms), but it should not be the main focus of the story. It could even be a sub-plot, and could even be humorous (imagine the gay protagonist 'flirting' with the antagonist, just to throw him off-kilter), albeit that is a scary line for a writer to walk (I wouldn't attempt it - it would probably be viewed as condescending).
I guess what I am saying is that all forms of diversity should be shown in The Realms, because thats one of the great things about The Realms, but it shouldn't take from the action/adventure side of the story. If an author can find a way for it to add to the main plot, then more power to him, but that starts to risk being called 'indulgent'. I think that is why most authors shy away from those types of social situations - its hard to 'get it right', where it doesn't piss-off one side or the other.
And BTW, if you watch True Blood, you get the idea (after awhile) that all vampires are bi. I guess when you think about it, that makes perfect sense. After, they have the 'boredom' factor going for them (something I think a lot of 'rock star' types fall prey to), and they also have the "you can't be picky about what you eat" thing as well. I like the series because it makes you think - these are things I had never considered about vampires before. Its not done in an 'icky' (just for shock-value) way, its down very subtly at times just to let you know these are very different creatures then humans. They do not react to it in any way themselves, because it is all perfectly natural (to them). Good stuff. I think thats an example of it being 'done right'.
You've got a perfect example there with True Blood. I love the show, but yeah, sometimes when they show the medium and his lover... I'm just turning away from the TV and gagging. I'm perfectly fine with them holding hands or something. At the same time, the show has gone into some things that literally me and some friends have discussed at lunch. One example that came up was a discussion about vampires and what would happen if a female one was turned who was still a virgin and they had sex (i.e. would their hymen regenerate). I can imagine some females might consider that disgusting, but the day after that episode we were at lunch and going "they read our minds" (and for those saying how low brow that is.... drop the facade, you know you've talked about some stupid junk with friends). But again, they're pushing an envelope, and if they were to go too far overboard, they could lose their viewers/customers.
And just because my mind just went there.... so female half-trolls with at least one human parent... they regenerate.... |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 21:28:25
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I relish the idea of greater diversity. There have been times while reading the novels when I thought to myself, "How come all these characters seem White? White barbarian, White archer woman, White dwarf, White halfling, and ironically enough, White drow. Why isn't there more variety in the characterizations? I have only skimmed a few novels by other authors, and I get the same basic feeling.
I want the Realms to reflect the RW, more. I want there to be realistic controversies and conundrums. I don't want the Realms to feel quaintly safe and insulated from grown-up issues. (Why are war and murder and would-be attempts to erase the universe any more appropriate than issues of sexuality or race? Still scratching my head on that one.)
And I want the people to feel different from one another. It's not enough to make this one Jim the human, and that one Jim the elf, if they both read the same (except for the long ears). These differences matter: they affect dating and relationship choices; they lead to customers being treated differently by merchants, even when shopping for the exact same products with the exact same form of currency; and in extreme cases, they lead to wars. Variations amongst people, and amongst the way people are treated because of those variations, are some of the most universal causes of human drama. We're not talking small potatoes, even though such issues have been played down in the existing Realms literature, heretofore.
Might the addition of more realistic issues raise the profile of D&D and the Realms a bit, out of the mire of supposedly nerdy lowbrow escapism for losers? Could D&D be seen as having finally grown up, with such other topics being broached?
I'm thinking that Hasbro and WOTC are considering what sells in the marketplace, and have deemed the GLBT and non-White ethnic communities to be attractive new customers to market to. If 4E didn't do so well, then probably anything is on the table to increase readership and revenues. They're reaching out to new customers, in the hopes of growing and expanding, it seems.
Just be careful you don't do so overzealously, effectively pandering to one crowd, and alienating the existing one. No, I don't want to feel like I'm being preached at. Any tale touching on these subjects needs to do so with subtlety and finesse. Be clever.
It shouldn't be too tough to create a family or community within any of known or unknown settlements of the Realms where race or sexuality is a problem. Even if they haven't been figured as much of one, yet, it should be fairly easy to make it up, and make it seem plausible in a medieval-themed world. I'm a little disappointed that we haven't read more about such problems in world with a more ancient, more primitive level of civilization.
I understand the difficulty of a bunch of straight White folks considering writing gay non-White characters. But that shouldn't necessarily be a prohibitive difficulty. Use gay or non-White friends as consultants or co-writers. Go to the people who actually live these lifestyles for realistic approaches to the controversies that they face. Strive for authenticity, if you're going to do this at all.
On a practical level, methinks it would work better to add a somehow-diverse new character to an existing story series, rather than create a new series and character, altogether. It's far too easy for straight Whites to just write off a new series like that. If you incorporate the proposed diversity into existing series, then it's much harder for dedicated fans of those lines, at least, to summarily skip them. Later on, once those diverse characters have proven sustainable for awhile, then you could have spin-off series where they carry their own weight, and hopefully have substantial dedicated fan bases of their own. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
Edited by - BEAST on 23 Aug 2012 21:33:49 |
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Delwa
Master of Realmslore
USA
1272 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 21:37:54
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I guess what I am saying is that all forms of diversity should be shown in The Realms, because thats one of the great things about The Realms, but it shouldn't take from the action/adventure side of the story. If an author can find a way for it to add to the main plot, then more power to him, but that starts to risk being called 'indulgent'. I think that is why most authors shy away from those types of social situations - its hard to 'get it right', where it doesn't piss-off one side or the other.
...
Its not done in an 'icky' (just for shock-value) way, its down very subtly at times just to let you know these are very different creatures then humans. They do not react to it in any way themselves, because it is all perfectly natural (to them). Good stuff. I think thats an example of it being 'done right'.
Exactly. Diversity should be story-driven and flow smoothly with the "feel" of the Realms.
An in-Realms example I can think of is from The Return of the Archwizards. (I think) It was a bathing scene where some humans were bathing with elves - coed.
To someone not used to the idea of an entire culture being comfortable showing their body to the world, it was a bit of a shock. Yet, it was done in-story in such a way that made you remember you were in another world and culture, and it wasn't done in a "just for shock value" kind of way.
In-story, the tension was handled remarkably well, I thought. I found myself identifying with the humans, and the elves explained it in such a way that made me think, and get over my shock. It was one of those moments where you really feel like you are part of a story.
(And please forgive my lack of political correctness. I only intend to try and communicate, not insult.) |
- Delwa Aunglor
I am off to slay yon refrigerator and spoil it's horde. Go for the cheese, Boo!
"The Realms change; seldom at the speed desired of those who strive, but far too quickly for those who resist." - The Simbul, taken from the Forgotten Realms Campaign Conspectus |
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Garen Thal
Master of Realmslore
USA
1105 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 22:24:52
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The issue of diversity has touched on the topics of gender and sexuality a couple of times in this thread already, and while I want to speak about them, I don't want to get bogged down in 'debating' specific points of specific posts.
The most important elements of what we work on in the Realms are story and character. If those don't work, then nothing works. But there are facets of characters that wind up getting hidden behind other parts of the story, or washed away because they don’t match current editorial attitudes.
In the Realms, when armies go off to war, there aren’t just husbands in armor kissing their wives and marching away. There are women kissing their husbands before they gird on swords, and men kissing their male partners (or women their female ones) before they head off to fight. These are real moments that—while not graphic or prurient or titillating in the slightest—speak to the honest reality of these characters, and we very rarely get to see them, if ever.
For me, glimpses of these moments would actually strengthen the story, because I know they happen. Not assume. Know. Just as I know that polymorphing magic and curses and the intervention of deities makes being transgendered a whole different experience in the Realms.
Sexuality in Realms fiction is not just about sex, and it’s certainly not about sex scenes. It’s about honoring the fact that there are other-than-heterosexual folks populating the Realms (and, I think, more comfortably than in the real world, in a lot of cases), and giving them a little time in the spotlight. Don’t show me two noble women in the tubs; show me a woman torn between her attraction to one and her affection for the other. Don’t show me a sex scene between two men; show me a man crying over his comrade—and love unrequited—as he cradles his dying, ruined body. Show me a held hand, or a lovingly caressed cheek, or a last, hurried kiss goodbye: real moments, so I can see real characters.
If I ever get the opportunity to tell fiction stories in the Realms (as opposed to my game writing—although I leave hints there, too), I hope to get the chance to show readers some of these things. I know Erik de Bie has a scene in is email inbox right this very moment that contains a glimpse into exactly what I’m talking about.
But hey, what do I know? |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4703 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 22:37:13
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| I am still trying to figure out what must be added to make Realms more diverse. There is racial hatred, dictatorship, Church rule, even elected rule, slavery and so on, you can find more things in the Realms then you can find in RL. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Old Man Harpell
Senior Scribe
USA
498 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 23:23:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I am still trying to figure out what must be added to make Realms more diverse. There is racial hatred, dictatorship, Church rule, even elected rule, slavery and so on, you can find more things in the Realms then you can find in RL.
I don't think it's a matter of what must be added, but more a matter of what the authors think would add to the story they write. If they decide that a gay male protagonist (who is very definitely a gay male) is a theme that would enhance how the story progresses, then by all means, it should be added.
That said, much of the attitudes towards certain type of fiction (and much of real life) still stem from dear Queen Victoria (who decreed, if you'll recall, that two men found 'in congress' (and not the legislative sort) were to be executed (if memory serves), but when asked about two females, replied that women 'simply don't DO such things'). In a largely male-driven purchase economy, the idea of two females is 'not that big a deal' (and in some cases, something that the stereotypically male readers might believe they will enjoy), whereas two males might cause the same 'target audience' to forgo the book altogether.
It all boils down to if the case can be made, the background is solid, and the story is interesting, then gender proclivity should not be a major factor in whether a story or book reads well or not.
- OMH |
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Gyor
Master of Realmslore
1632 Posts |
Posted - 23 Aug 2012 : 23:41:47
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I'm okay with that and I get what your going for, not just Romance and sex, but emotional intimacy. Relationships, connections, joy and heartache, lives.
Still alittle spice won't hurt either, I'm not talking x-rated, nothing more graphic then say Game of Thrones (which would be good prepration in case HBO or Showtime ever buys the rights to make a Forgotten Realms TV show :p ).
And maybe with deal some disablity issues too and over coming them to triumph. I know Shadowbane deals with some, as does Kemp's Cale, so you've got a good start.
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Diversity in the realms
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