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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
 Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 00:32:55
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All this is very interesting discussion, and makes me feel somewhat validated in my own writing. I've introduced characters in one of my tales who are openly gay (one has an unspoken but obvious crush on the main character) disabled (a scene with a half-blind jewelery merchant with a twisted foot), or otherwise "different" from the norm. Mind, this is in a city of drow, so "normal" is somewhat subjective, I suppose. But I never did it for shock, humor (although the jeweler comes close with his perverse habit of scrying others...) or even for a "quota" of any particular sort. It was simply something to either progress parts of the story, or to show the many different personalities of the people who live there. And while there are a few very *ahem* racy scenes, those were also part of the story, and not simply for shock or titillation factors. (The caveat here being that it is partly a fantasy romance, so some sex is almost a given....)
The point is that this is something I've considered and used in writing, and it's good to see that other writers are starting to do so as well. I'd just like to see more of that kind of openness. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
242 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 00:52:41
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One problem I've kind of had with the Realms, and one I doubt that'll be addressed much, is the fact that pretty much most of the Realms have the same pantheon (namely the Faerunian pantheon). From a historical perspective, this is just very unlikely as cultures separated by large distances (or giant mountain ranges, steppes, deserts) would develop differently and in turn, develop different gods, even if they were at the root, the same gods.
One way I guess you could kind of reflect that is by many Faerunian gods having different aspects in different cultures (such as already is, with Talos being known as Bhaelros in Calimshan, Tyr as Anachtyr). I'd really love to see a lot more of this going on, as I feel it would exponentially diversify the Realms, if each god had a different flavour in different cultures (I'm sure Ed Greenwood could come up with plenty different exotic names for FR gods  ).
Like with Jesus being portrayed as black by certain African-American/African communities, or as Chinese in China, I'd like to see the culture groups making their own interpretation of various Faerunian gods. That would be really cool. |
Edited by - deserk on 24 Aug 2012 01:06:02 |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 01:50:43
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Actually, A Song of Fire and Ice gets down right raunchy at times. However, its not the Realms, and fits the setting perfectly, because its down-in-the-dirt gritty. I think a couple of realms stories told in that fashion would not be bad, but I wouldn't want to see the entire setting go that route.
And that setting is heavily humanocentric. In the Realms, the attitudes about sexuality and just about everything else should be far more liberal because of the thousands of years mankind has spent amongst very alien races. Elves probably don't even have a word for 'bi', because there is nothing out of the ordinary about it. Dwarves may have taboos against it, but that would stem from them being an under-prolific race. Although, considering the relative rarity of dwarven females, 'gay' may be far more prevalent then we've been lead to believe (in a 'Greek warrior society' sort of way).
I also just don't see gnomes or halflings giving a damn about such things (since both are distant cousins of the fey). Dragons (and other reptilian races) are probably amused by human thoughts/mores on the matter - I'm sure dragons care even less then Elves.
And Ed still hasn't given us a definitive answer about Elminster giving birth (which should tell us its a distinct possibility). He's never come out and said El was bi, but it should be a given, considering how long he was female. So El is one of the two biggest 'faces' of FR, and the other is Drizzt - a drow who has probably seen things that would make common, garden-variety same-sex relations pale by comparison (think Draegloth). In a world like the Forgotten Realms, there is so much more.. bizarre... sexual things transpiring that I don't think Realms folk even give a rats arse about such things as 'gay', any more so then they would any other relationship.
Hell, Elminster's daughter is technically a half-dragon, and we know he has a sweet tooth for drow ladies (amongst many other things).
I would also think incest is less important in the Realms, because of the long-lived races (and there are plenty of RW precedents - it was actually customary to marry 'family' right up to the last century). I only mention this because Alusair flirts with Elminster in the current series, and I think thats a bit icky, considering El is an ancestor of Filfaeril, if not her actual father.
Of course, 'magic' solves any of the problematic genetic issues.
I fully expect at least one surprise along these lines when the Cormyrian lineage sees the light of day; I'd be shocked if their wasn't. And thats just the heartlands - i can't even imagine what goes on in Old Empires like Mulhorand, Unther, and Calimshan. Their gods married their own sisters and sometimes even mothers, so why would the people behave any different? We got to remember that Toril is an alien world, without any of the social stigmas we have, or a period of a millenia where a monolithic, monotheistic religion dictating 'right & wrong' to everyone.
Socially, Torillians might even consider us a bit 'primitive' (rustic?) by comparison. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 24 Aug 2012 02:39:25 |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12194 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 02:11:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
I am still trying to figure out what must be added to make Realms more diverse. There is racial hatred, dictatorship, Church rule, even elected rule, slavery and so on, you can find more things in the Realms then you can find in RL.
Exactly. Might some authors not be able to make every race feel like a new totally alien experience? Well, I'll tell you what... I've read many a novel over the years, and even some of the most lauded of them fail at making their non-human races truly feel elven, dwarven, etc... and I'm not specifying FR here. The problem you're going to run across is that for the most part an author's going to find one little piece of their non-human race that's a little odd and build from there, and that's mostly because books aren't written as a team (not enough money in it). We're actually lucky enough in FR that they can get together occasionally and bounce ideas around, but then its going to be more about the plot than trying to draw out a culture (for the most part, though the two may occasionally dovetail). |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 03:17:21
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The Realms may not inherently lack diversity*, but WotC hasn't really put in an apparent effort to feature that diversity.
Sexual preferences are not often an immediately noticeable characteristic. It is something that has to be revealed in the text, preferably with some development. Skin tones and, to some extent, culture are more noticeable at a glance.
In the novels, how many lead characters are of non-European looks versus those who are pseudo-European? Drizzt being a bestselling outlier and a full blooded demi-human doesn't count.
Fortunately, I think Realms novels fair better with number of female lead characters and representation on book covers.
The setting certainly has (had) people of varied skin-color and non-European cultures living in many thriving cities and kingdoms. Some of the most populous areas of the Realms were of non-European influence. Some of the novel characters are even from those areas, but is it shown clearly on the covers? This goes back to the hopefully improved art direction being prepared for the Next Realms.
It delights me to see a Turmian character in the upcoming Sundering series and the cover art matches as well. Not because there is some imaginary quota to fulfill, but because Turmish has been a major, trade-canny, seafaring nation of the Sea of Fallen Stars for a long time and it’s strange that so few novels feature characters from there.
*Pre-4E Realms at least. I really do think the Spellplague event made it more difficult for characters of non-European influence and non-white appearance. Many of their homelands were wiped out or overwritten by Abeiran intrusions. While unintended, I don’t like how the setting comes across in this regard. I can’t guess how someone who isn’t aware of the reason for the destruction and reorganization of those regions would think, especially if they started comparing the areas across the editions.
Hopefully, 5E Realms will repair this oversight. Preferably without trashing the new development entirely.
Edit due to: Reading the 4E FRCG last night and discovered the proper ethnonym for Turmish is Turmian. |
Edited by - Dark Wizard on 24 Aug 2012 23:59:49 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 04:00:09
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That all makes sense, Dark Wizard.
I have a few 4E related questions:
Aren't there a lot more Shou people in Faerun in the 4E continuity, even a small kingdom full of them somewhere on the Inner Sea?
What actually happened to the Bedine? It seems to me that their blasted, accursed desert homeland being restored to a land of forests and green fields with plenty of fresh water was probably a good thing for them. It took decades, yes? Wouldn't the Bedine likely have adapted to the improved conditions, multiplied in number and become more prosperous? Or did the Shades decide to be jerks about the whole matter? I seem to recall some 3E hints that some of the Shades had a paternalistic sort of concern for the Bedine (presumably out of a sense of Netherese kinship). Was that idea ditched in 4E?
What about the Ice Hunters or the Savage Frontier and the Ulutiiuns of the Great Glacier? Are they still around?
What about the Nars?
The Eraka of the Ride?
I’m only somewhat familiar with 4E FR. I’ve skimmed the main book, but that’s it.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 24 Aug 2012 : 23:06:46
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Wow, lots of posts. I'll address a few things in general, which might seem directed to specific posts, but I don't remember all the names or have time to do quotations.
Full disclosure: I myself am a straight white male. Calling for diversity is not my way of calling for fiction to pull me in--we're good on that. Rather, I feel diversity is extremely important in our fiction, and I for one definitely want to see it. I have friends of all different colors, backgrounds, and orientations, and I want them to feel as comfortable and as esteemed as I am by the fantasy fiction market.
@Combatmedic: Check out my novels Shadowbane and Shadowbane: Eye of Justice (which is set in Westgate) for more about the shou. Also, the novel Wrath of the Blue Lady is very much about the Shou.
@"Graphic sex scenes": No, they don't appear. Why? Because the Realms doesn't allow graphic sex scenes of any sort, straight/bent/etc. Calling for more "diversity" in sexual expression does not equate to calling for more non-straight sex in the novels. It calls for, as Brian (Garen Thal) puts it, emotional intimacy and moments of connection between couples that aren't strictly straight pairings.
And it isn't necessarily wanting homosexual characters: polyamorous groupings are something that the Realms should be full of, but it's extremely rare to see them persisting in the fiction. The end of Return of the Archwizards is a rare exception. (See my forthcoming novel Shadowbane: Eye of Justice for a love triangle that really goes all three ways!)
When I asked about the challenges a gay male character would face, I didn't mean "in the Realms"--I meant on the shelf in our world. For you as a reader, how would you react?
I've written openly not-straight (usually female) characters (Lady Ilira Nathalan a.k.a. the Fox-at-Twilight and my fey'ri warlock Fayne are both openly bisexual, if it wasn't extremely obvious, and there's at least one more in my forthcoming novel), and I've written hidden/closeted gay characters (both male and female). But I've never written an openly gay male character. And why is that?
Part of it is the backlash from readers. I fielded several ugly comments about one scene in my novel Depths of Madness wherein I had two female characters kiss (that's it). Part of it is that I don't particularly want real life attitudes to prejudice readers toward a character. If I tell you such-and-such male hero is gay, then suddenly he becomes a particular thing in your mind. The key is proper development and good storytelling, and I find that the sexual preferences of my characters don't usually make that much difference to what's going on (at least, not overtly).
That said, I do plan to write an openly gay male character (who isn't "softened" by also being into the ladies). And I'd like to see the Realms fiction evolve to a point where I can do that without it being a big deal.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 01:25:04
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@Scott - I do not seek out novels with gay characters intentionally but I don't avoid them either. (I think i've only read two novels with a gay main character - Party Monster by James St. James and The Perks of Being a Wallflower) However, obviously other people would. But for as many people who would avoid a product there would be people who are drawn to it. It seems like many people are currently drawn towards media that includes what in the real world we would call "sexual minorities". I notice there is a trend in having gay main characters in comic books. However, sometime ago in the past when I made a thread about sex-changes-via magic and it was locked by the moderators here because it was deemed too potentially offensive and controversial.Others never really have their sexuality explored at all. (I felt like Lisa Smedman's novel "The Gilded Rune"'s main character feeling he was a dwarf when he was born a human alluded to transgenderism via transracialism)
Personally I think it would be good if the Forgotten Realms in a way reflected thoughts and ideas about the real world such as how human/dwarf/elf supremecism might reflect and make us think about racial supremacy in our own world, etc. I hope your book goes well. I would be more concerned about people getting upset if they did not like how you portrayed a gay character, personally. People in certain genres seem to be forced into allowing female homosexuality to exist in their works and not male homosexuality, so I think it would be good of you to break that tradition.
Deserk - In real mythology people have multiple cultural pantheons but many of them could be seen as being so similar they
are in fact the same being with a different name. Also in a fantasy universe like this with rules stipulating there
is ONE deity of each sort of portfolio as a rule stipulated by an overgod there would be less Gods as a result of
that. I do not see that as not being diverse. Selune/Sehanine/(Hecate? Artemis? Nanna-Sin?)(other aliases can be multiple entities to her many different worshipers |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 04:00:23
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
When I asked about the challenges a gay male character would face, I didn't mean "in the Realms"--I meant on the shelf in our world. For you as a reader, how would you react?
I've written openly not-straight (usually female) characters (Lady Ilira Nathalan a.k.a. the Fox-at-Twilight and my fey'ri warlock Fayne are both openly bisexual, if it wasn't extremely obvious, and there's at least one more in my forthcoming novel), and I've written hidden/closeted gay characters (both male and female). But I've never written an openly gay male character. And why is that?
Part of it is the backlash from readers. I fielded several ugly comments about one scene in my novel Depths of Madness wherein I had two female characters kiss (that's it). Part of it is that I don't particularly want real life attitudes to prejudice readers toward a character. If I tell you such-and-such male hero is gay, then suddenly he becomes a particular thing in your mind. The key is proper development and good storytelling, and I find that the sexual preferences of my characters don't usually make that much difference to what's going on (at least, not overtly).
That said, I do plan to write an openly gay male character (who isn't "softened" by also being into the ladies). And I'd like to see the Realms fiction evolve to a point where I can do that without it being a big deal.
Cheers
I'll check out your work, Erik.
You've already addressed all of my concerns in regards to writing about an gay character (tokenism, graphic sex scenes, author tract, etc). If you have a particular character in mind, then I suggest you go ahead and write about him.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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deserk
Learned Scribe
Norway
242 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 04:49:52
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
Deserk - In real mythology people have multiple cultural pantheons but many of them could be seen as being so similar they
are in fact the same being with a different name. Also in a fantasy universe like this with rules stipulating there
is ONE deity of each sort of portfolio as a rule stipulated by an overgod there would be less Gods as a result of
that. I do not see that as not being diverse. Selune/Sehanine/(Hecate? Artemis? Nanna-Sin?)(other aliases can be multiple entities to her many different worshipers
Yes, I don't mean to necessarily suggest making entirely new gods but rather giving Faerunian gods more identities, aliases or names amongst different cultural groups or races, reflecting cultural and/or linguistical differences (as FR has many different languages), as I think that would significantly help richen the cultural groups of Faerun. They would usually be within the same or similar portfolios, but with perhaps differences on what they emphasise or how they treat the portfolios, or how the gods are visually depicted (like assuming that Anachtyr would commonly be depicted as a more dusky human in Calimshan, than as opposed to Tyr in the North, to make them more relatable to those people). Or perhaps they would be very similar or the same, just with a different local name (like Tempus being known as Tempos among the Reghedmen).
Maybe the names of Faerunian gods that we know well, could be their Common names?
I would at least very much appreciate some cultures giving their own interpretation of the Faerunian gods, while in truth the gods are the same, but they may just use different aspects and identities they assume when they interact with their followers. You already have this to an extent (2nd edition books detail quite a few different aspects certain gods have), I would just wish to see more examples of it, as I feel it's a bit weird that in a polytheistic world, humans are worshipping the exact same gods as some other alien culture from hundreds of miles away, in the exact same fashion and with the exact same name. It's understandable with certain gods like Bane, who has a very strict dogma and teaching, as he is a kind of monotheistic god, wishing to dominate all (however he could still have a local cultural name in certain places)
Also what should perhaps be considered, is gods with unique aspects for different races. Wouldn't Half-Orcs or Half-Elves be inclined to depict the Faerunian gods that they follow, as reflections of themselves, rather than as human gods as often is the case? Especially with Half-Orcs, as they are very often ostracised by human communities, why would they want to bend their knees in prayer to a human god figure?
As far as I know, Faerun's gods aren't technically human gods, are they (bit unsure on this one)? Toril's most oldest gods are Shar and Selune, and they are older than humanity itself. So why should they hold back, when there is a possibility of swaying over different cultures and races to their influence, through a fitting aspect?
I really like Talos as being worshipped as Bhaelros in Calimshan (and being thought of as a different god by his worshippers), Kozah in the Anauroch (technically not worshipped but feared) and Malyk by drow in the Underdark (as an attempt to fold Wild Magic into his portfolio). So yes, I think more aspects would be an easy and enriching way of adding more "impressions" of there being unique new gods.
/End of rambling, for now. |
Edited by - deserk on 25 Aug 2012 04:58:33 |
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Razz
Senior Scribe
USA
749 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 04:59:04
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A lot of talk on sexual orientation but before we consider crossing that bridge, why not the racial bridge? As in, can anyone here name me a non-European-appearing character in the Realms that's pretty famous?
Why don't we have an enticing Chultan protagonist? Or one from Turmish?
I think one set of novels does have a Shou lead character? Forgot the name of it.
Khelben would be more of a good role model for defeating typical Eurocentric fantasy tropes if he were a Turmish wizard than another old white dude in wizard robes.
Again, I have seen very little in both characterization and, most importantly, the artwork of D&D to make it more relatable to minorities. It felt very awkward opening the 4th Edition books to the students at a 95% African American population high school and having to awkwardly explain their questioning of why most of the fantasy art are so full of, as they rightfully put it, "white people." They already have to deal with that kind of crap enough in real life, being held down in life because of skin color around these parts, and to see it in a game they want to have fun with and escape the harsh reality, it sickens me to think that D&D dredges those feelings up once again from the lack of diverse representation in both D&D artwork and character novels (I, of course, bring up the same argument when it comes to video game protagonists as well).
Thankfully, I was able to calm them down a bit by showing the picture of the female halfling in the 4E Player's Handbook that had a very distinct African-American look to her. Yes, I did not forget about 3E's Ember the Monk, but again, now it feels like WotC is just throwing in "token" characters that only angers people even more because they're not really trying.
That's my concern and always has been. It's been a question that escaped the lips of my best friend 15 years back in high school, and here are now, the same question on the lips of children now. What gives? |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 05:05:05
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Being gay, I feel a bit obligated to chime in here. Since I'm assuming most (if not all) the writers and game designers are straight, it probably helps to have a perspective from someone who is actually gay.
Alright. Here are my thoughts. I don't think the Realms lacks diversity, I just don't think the diversity that has always existed has ever really been put on display. This was done for obvious reasons, due to the demographic that is being targeted.
That's all well and fine, but there are some things that need to be taken into consideration.
First, homosexuality really shouldn't be defined by sexual acts. It should be thought of in terms of romantic attraction; just as straight relationships are not defined by sex, neither are gay relationships. This means that someone who lives their life as a celibate virgin is no more or less gay than compared to the biggest gay man whore that you can find. They are equally gay. Just because someone may not act on their desires does not mean those desires don't exist.
The reason this is important to point out is because people assume that just because something has gay characters in it then it must also include graphic depictions of sex. False. It doesn't need to have any greater or lesser depiction than straight couples.
Second, building off that last point this doesn't mean that gay characters are sexless creatures. Just like straight people, gay people like sex. There are basically two traps people fall into when portraying gays in fiction.
Trap A is to turn them into sexless creatures who have no life of their own. These types of characters frequently start edging into the "magic homo" category; they exist as supporting characters to help the straight characters solve their problems. We really begin slipping into the "magic homo" category when said gay characters somehow have all the answers to the straight characters problems because of their experiences with being gay.
Trap B is when things go to the opposite extreme. The scene becomes extremely graphic, and suddenly you're reading about every thrust and grunt. If there are straight characters in the story who also have sex scenes, things will appear no where near as graphic for them. It comes off as the author trying to prove a point, and it looks like it's written primarily for shock value.
The way both of these traps can be avoided is to treat scenes of intimacy between couples of the same sex exactly the way you'd treat intimacy between couples of the opposite sex. If your book has a lot of detailed graphic sex scenes, then go there. If your book doesn't, don't go there. All of this is avoided by treating them equally; it also provides a strong ground to defend yourself should there be criticism from either side.
Third, it should go without saying that trying to make an overt political statement is a bad idea. People don't generally like it when authors are preaching to them no matter the subject, unless the book is specifically designed to do that. The Realms really isn't set up for that; people read the novels for a good story. Focus on the story, and not sending a message.
Fourth, it is important to understand there is a difference between being homosexual and being gay. We (and I) use these words interchangeably, but there is an important distinction that needs to be made.
A homosexual, as I said earlier in my post, is someone who experiences exclusive romantic and sexual attraction to people of the same sex. That's it, nothing else. It's all you need to qualify as a homosexual.
Gay people are all homosexual, yes. However, being gay is so much more than that because it involves an identity. Everyone has an identity and it is shaped by our personal experiences in our lives. This is HUGELY influenced by culture. In our modern society when someone comes out as gay, they're revealing more than their sexual orientation.
Being gay in our modern culture is about struggling to be authentic to who you are in the face of adversity. That adversity takes many forms, but perhaps the greatest is both fear and shame. Coming out is important because it is a signal that someone is fighting back against that fear and shame in an attempt to live an authentic life.
Fifth, now that I've created this important separation it is important to know that at different points in time and in different cultures homosexuality has been viewed EXTREMELY differently. In some cultures, it might make you sacred, meaning that you are effectively a shaman or a priest. In another, it might be a death sentence. In another, your love and romantic feelings may be elevated above male-female romantic feelings, due to that cultures view of women.
In fact, you'll often find the view of women linked closely with the view of homosexuality. The reason being is that homosexual relationships defy gender norms. As a general rule, the more accepting the culture is of women the more accepting it is of homosexuality. These two things are very closely linked; however there are exceptions and these exceptions are based upon how it is viewed.
Ancient Greece, for example, elevated male-male love over male-female love because they were a very misogynistic culture. Women were viewed inferior, and thus love between them was viewed as inferior. It was perfectly fine for two men to engage in sexual acts, so long as neither one of them engaged in a "passive" role. Should that happen, the passive participant was viewed as acting effeminate - acting like a woman. He was derided and treated harshly.
How women are viewed and treated will always have some influence over how those who don't submit to gender or societal norms are treated. I'm not sure how societies that tend to be matriarchal would view sexual orientation simply because there really aren't any real world examples.
Though, I wouldn't suggest displaying the Drow who worship Lolth as more inclined to be lesbians or something. It plays too much on the man-hating lesbian trope.
What is important, and what needs to be done, is for someone to sit down and write about how homosexuality and gender are viewed in each of the Realms cultures. Explain how that view came to be, and how that view is changing and evolving over time.
Sixth, someone who is gay is more than just their sexual orientation. People who are gay have ambitions, dreams, and motivations that have very little if nothing to do with being gay. When some people write about gay characters it becomes very easy to make those characters one dimensional and make them ALL ABOUT being gay.
Seventh, this is perhaps the most important. I think it's important for any author writing a gay character to be both true to the story he (or she) is trying to tell, as well as to the Realms.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
And Ed still hasn't given us a definitive answer about Elminster giving birth (which should tell us its a distinct possibility). He's never come out and said El was bi, but it should be a given, considering how long he was female. So El is one of the two biggest 'faces' of FR, and the other is Drizzt - a drow who has probably seen things that would make common, garden-variety same-sex relations pale by comparison (think Draegloth). In a world like the Forgotten Realms, there is so much more.. bizarre... sexual things transpiring that I don't think Realms folk even give a rats arse about such things as 'gay', any more so then they would any other relationship.
I just want to quickly respond to this as well. The second part, I agree with entirely. Being gay is likely way down on the list of things people in the Realms would find offensive, considering how many other bizarre things could potentially exist that we can't even begin to imagine.
"Oh, thank Sune! He only likes men. Can you believe what the neighbors would say if he were into dwarven women? Ugh! Oh, Kelemvor take me! I would DIE - simply lay down and DIE - if I had a future granddaughter who grew a beard because of that breeding. Filthy, smelly creatures, those dwarves!" 
The part I want to address, though, is the part I bolded and in particular the part I underlined. I don't think you necessarily meant it this way, but a lot of people seem to confuse gender and sexual orientation. These are two separate things.
The fact that Elminster was transformed into a woman would have no impact on his sexual orientation; if he was straight, he'd simply be a lesbian. If he were gay, then he'd be straight. If he were bisexual... he'd still be bisexual.
On this same note gender and sex are two separate things. Sex is what you're born with - it's what exists between your legs. It's biological. Gender is a cultural construct. Although we have two genders which correspond to sex, there are other cultures that have more than two genders. I forget the culture in particular off the top of my head, but one culture had as many as five genders.
Someone who is transexual suffers from Gender Identity Disorder (GID); they feel as if they're the incorrect gender. It exists in varying degrees; some are somewhat mild and others are extremely severe. It's a horrible condition in which an individual feels that they are trapped within the wrong body.
I'm unsure of what degree magic shaped Elminster's psychology aside from just his physical body. Frequently, when gender swapping is done in fiction it's for laughs. However, if it were to be played straight it'd be a form of body horror.
So, if you magically change someone into the opposite gender - say a man into a woman... it wouldn't change anything but his physical appearance. He'd STILL feel like a man, think like a man, and identify as a man. It wouldn't matter that he appeared female. Certainly, magic could be used to alter him further so that he forgets that he was ever a male and believes himself to be female... or remembers that he is male, but believes that he always was a female and that you gave him a great gift.
But unless you screw around with his brain, his psychology, and likely his memories as well he's still going to identify as a man. He would develop Gender Identity Disorder.
And again; it wouldn't change his sexual orientation at all. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 05:58:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Razz
A lot of talk on sexual orientation but before we consider crossing that bridge, why not the racial bridge? As in, can anyone here name me a non-European-appearing character in the Realms that's pretty famous?
Why don't we have an enticing Chultan protagonist? Or one from Turmish?
I think one set of novels does have a Shou lead character? Forgot the name of it.
Khelben would be more of a good role model for defeating typical Eurocentric fantasy tropes if he were a Turmish wizard than another old white dude in wizard robes.
Again, I have seen very little in both characterization and, most importantly, the artwork of D&D to make it more relatable to minorities. It felt very awkward opening the 4th Edition books to the students at a 95% African American population high school and having to awkwardly explain their questioning of why most of the fantasy art are so full of, as they rightfully put it, "white people." They already have to deal with that kind of crap enough in real life, being held down in life because of skin color around these parts, and to see it in a game they want to have fun with and escape the harsh reality, it sickens me to think that D&D dredges those feelings up once again from the lack of diverse representation in both D&D artwork and character novels (I, of course, bring up the same argument when it comes to video game protagonists as well).
Thankfully, I was able to calm them down a bit by showing the picture of the female halfling in the 4E Player's Handbook that had a very distinct African-American look to her. Yes, I did not forget about 3E's Ember the Monk, but again, now it feels like WotC is just throwing in "token" characters that only angers people even more because they're not really trying.
That's my concern and always has been. It's been a question that escaped the lips of my best friend 15 years back in high school, and here are now, the same question on the lips of children now. What gives?
I don't see how the skin color of imaginary people in an imaginary world matters at all.
As far as I can tell, 'white people' is a cultural construct that doesn't apply in Faerun. No such thing as 'white people.'
Faerun is not 'Eurocentric' because it's not much like Europe at all.
EDIT-- Not IMO, at any rate. I am probably seeing all the same things you are, only I judge them differently. There's no one right answer.
For what it is worth, the concept of 'white people' didn't apply in Medieval Christendom (which is not, and never was, the same thing as the continent of Europe).
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 27 Aug 2012 15:35:21 |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 07:34:55
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I also want to comment on race a bit as well. I have a bit of a bone to pick, a pet peeve.
Cormyrian's do not appear fair-skinned. They are not white. There I said it! 
Most people of Cormyr are of Chondathan descent. They have a fairer skin tone than most other Chondathans due to the immigration to the region after the fall of the eastern Netherese survivor states of Anauria, Asram, and Hlondath. They likely were influenced by Talfirian immigration as well.
However, the sheer number of Chondathans in Cormyr pretty much ensured that those who immigrated were drops in the bucket. Here is how Races of Faerun describes Chondathans:
"Chondathans are slender, tawny-skinned folk with brown hair ranging from almost blond to almost black. Most Chondathans are tall and have green or brown eyes, but all builds and hair and eye hues may be seen. Those Chondathans who dwell north and west of the Sea of Fallen Stars (except in Sembia) are more likely to have blue eyes and have fairer complexions and darker hair than those born in the South, evidence of a significant Netherese heritage. In Chondath itself, particularly in the lands bordering Sespech, a significant Shaaran influx in recent centuries has given many natives of Chondath more of an olive-skinned hue." - Races of Faerun, page 84.
What color is tawny? To quote the dictionary: "a light brown to brownish-orange color".
I have never understood why Cormyrian's have always been assumed to be mostly fair-skinned whites. According to Races of Faerun, they're 85% Chondathans, and 12% Tethyrians. Based upon this fact and the immigration facts I mentioned earlier, they should range from light-honey colored skin to a dusky tawny.
In other words skin tones that range like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/2c/Natugle_stor.jpg
Another great example is to check out the 3E FRCS and the image of Alusair Obarskyr under the Cormyr entry. Most Cormyrian's are going to have variations of that skin tone.
Quite honestly, white-skinned people have been over portrayed in the Realms. The only major ethnic group of white-skinned people that exist are the Illuskan's.
Funnily enough, contrary to how white people are commonly portrayed in fantasy fiction, in the Realms the Illuskan's are thought of as (to quote Races of Faerun): "a barbaric people, having barely risen above the status of orcs in the eyes of many southerners."
Pretty much every other major human ethnic group is some varying shade of brown or yellow. Sure, some are darker and some are lighter, a good example of the varying degrees are the Damaran's.
As a general rule if you want to play or portray a fair-skinned character he or she is going to have to be from the North, the Heartlands, the Moonsea, or the Sword Coast region. Granted, that's pretty much where most of the novels are set as well as where most games are played. However, it's only a small chunk of Faerun... and within that chunk there are still a very sizable number of people of color.
Outside of these regions, you really have to go into more isolated locations such as Sossal (where the Sossrim are literally "as white as snow"), Halruaa (due to the Netherese immigration), and Lantan (the Lantanna are described as having "parchment-colored skin").
So there you go. The overwhelming majority of the Realms is some shade of brown or yellow.
Finally, when it comes to skin color in the Realms... it is silly to make a big deal over it. People are more concerned over ethnicity, nationality, and race than over the color of someones skin. For example, an Illuskan would likely be treated as a dirty savage in Calimport. Some merchants might jack up their prices, believing that they could trick the illiterate savage out of his or her coins.
In the North, people would likely look down upon the Calishite as soft, arrogant, and weak - unable to survive out in the Savage Frontier. Such an individual would likely have to do something major to earn the respect of the Northerners. Of course, why a Calishite would care to earn the respect of a bunch of dirty, backward, illiterate savages is beyond me. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 25 Aug 2012 : 08:40:39
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For whatever it is worth, ''parchment-colored'' is sometimes used (in the United States) to refer to the skin tones of light-complected persons with both ''black'' and ''white'' ancestry.
YMMV
It's all a matter of how indvidual artists, players, readers, DMs, etc interpret the setting.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 06:42:31
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I don't think skin tones/shades are the point of this discussion, but I don't agree that most people in the Forgotten Realms are described as being non-white in the terms of the real world. (Also Faerun is obviously based on the real world Europe, Durpar on India, Zakhara on the Middle East, Kara Tur on East Asia, Maztica on the Americas, etc. I don't see how someone could deny this..... While being a made up place people overtly imitated real world places, or simply drew from their own experiences to create the imaginary places that constitute the realms. The Forgotten Realms name implies that they are lost parts of our own world and connected to it like in Narnia )
http://cdn.obsidianportal.com/assets/29244/78825.jpg
^^^ All the human made up races in Races of Faerun are drawn with white skin except for Calishite and Rashemi.
Regardless, people are not talking about skin tone they are talking about racial categorization wherein "white" (or "brown/black" etc.) has multiple and varying definitions. I don't think any definition of being racially white means you must have ghost white skin (google "tawny skin" and almost all the faces are of people who are obviously European) I think people want diversity in so far as wanting people who are not based off real world Europe being portrayed more. Cormyr seems like one of the most overtly Europe inspired locales in the Forgotten Realms. |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 07:21:33
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This might not be acceptable content for an Eye on the Realms article, but I'd be interested in reading an article or short story about same-gender characters who seek arcane assistance, divine magical aid or some other supernatural method to temporarily transform one of the pair to the opposite sex so the couple can have children--along with all the trials and tribulations that search might bring.
Maybe this would work as a micro article along the lines of what MarkusTay was talking about in another scroll? |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 08:15:18
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MrHedgehog -
I understand that people aren't necessarily talking about just skin color, but a desire for people and characters they can connect to based on their experiences in real life. This actually loops back to my point regarding homosexuality in the Realms, and the reason I wanted to draw a distinction between what it meant to be gay in the real world vs the Realms. The point is that the Realms is a different place, with a vastly different culture that has different social standards.
It's very hard and difficult to map our real life experiences into the Realms when those experiences don't really exist in the same way. Certainly, there are situations where we can relate emotionally to a character or a people. However, there really aren't any direct parallels.
As for pretty much all the human ethnic groups in the Realms being drawn with white skin; I agree. That happens a lot. That's my point; they're incorrect.
Just looking at the image you linked, the central figure appears to be a Red Wizard. All Red Wizards are Mulan. The Mulan are not white - as they are being portrayed in that image. Check out the 3E FRCS for an image of Zulkir Aznar Thrul. That's the Mulan skin tone.
You're right that Faerun draws heavily upon Western medieval culture for inspiration; this is true for most traditional fantasy. There is no real easy way of fixing that without changing a lot. Cormyr, I believe, draws inspiration from King Arthur and Camelot - that whole mythos.
My point in bringing up the issue regarding skin tone and Faerunian Ethnic groups was inspired by Razz. He's right, and the problems are real. When you open a book 95% of the artwork is going to show people who are white. My point is that in the Realms this isn't really all that accurate, considering most of the major ethnic groups aren't white - they are varying shades of brown and yellow. |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 21:03:06
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@Aldrick: Thanks for your posts. Well said!
(And yes, there are some gay/not-straight people working in Realms writing and game design. And I for one would be happy to see more.)
@Razz: There are indeed non-white main characters who show up, but I do see the point. Myrin, one of my main characters in the Shadowbane series, is of mixed heritage, none of which are "white" human subraces. She is described very clearly in my novels as dark/brown-skinned. And while it's not the Realms, the main character of my upcoming Pathfinder webstory "Proper Villains" is half Cheliaxan (a pale-skinned subrace) and half Mwangi (a dark-skinned subrace). In fact, only one significant character in that story is a "white person."
@All: As different as the racial/sexual/cultural makeup is in the Realms, we should never forget the fact that the fiction and sourcebooks are perceived IN OUR WORLD. The art should depict characters of various ethnicities, colors, backgrounds, and body types. Why? Because they should be appealing/relatable to various people.
It's just like that situation that was described earlier: when you show a D&D sourcebook to a 95% African-American classroom, you should not have to look really hard to find a single dark-skinned person in the art therein.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Gabrielle_H
Acolyte
USA
35 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 21:09:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
This might not be acceptable content for an Eye on the Realms article, but I'd be interested in reading an article or short story about same-gender characters who seek arcane assistance, divine magical aid or some other supernatural method to temporarily transform one of the pair to the opposite sex so the couple can have children--along with all the trials and tribulations that search might bring.
It's not technically Realmslore, but you can check out Ed's story in WHEN THE HERO COMES HOME to see him take on this kind of situation.
(And thus ends my shameless self-promotion for the week, and a return to posts that are not about my books. ;) )
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Gabrielle Harbowy, scribe and editrix
http://www.gabrielle-edits.com
twitter: @gabrielle_h |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 26 Aug 2012 : 23:10:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
@Aldrick: Thanks for your posts. Well said!
(And yes, there are some gay/not-straight people working in Realms writing and game design. And I for one would be happy to see more.)
@Razz: There are indeed non-white main characters who show up, but I do see the point. Myrin, one of my main characters in the Shadowbane series, is of mixed heritage, none of which are "white" human subraces. She is described very clearly in my novels as dark/brown-skinned. And while it's not the Realms, the main character of my upcoming Pathfinder webstory "Proper Villains" is half Cheliaxan (a pale-skinned subrace) and half Mwangi (a dark-skinned subrace). In fact, only one significant character in that story is a "white person."
@All: As different as the racial/sexual/cultural makeup is in the Realms, we should never forget the fact that the fiction and sourcebooks are perceived IN OUR WORLD. The art should depict characters of various ethnicities, colors, backgrounds, and body types. Why? Because they should be appealing/relatable to various people.
It's just like that situation that was described earlier: when you show a D&D sourcebook to a 95% African-American classroom, you should not have to look really hard to find a single dark-skinned person in the art therein.
Cheers
Well, I agree about that the artwork could be more 'diverse.'
I'd like to see more female characters who are not drawn/painted for sex appeal. I'm not saying that all 'cheesecake' must go, but a more varied depiction of women would please me.
I like illustrations that show somewhat scruffy adventurers dungeon-crawling, exploring the wilderness, or skulking about the bad parts of town. Outfit them with clothing and armor that looks functional, with an 'ancient/medieval' feeling. Put a little grit in the picture.
High heels, perfect hair, and 'sexy' swimwear armor tends to clash with that approach.
Give me a female to match this party of guys:
http://navdi.files.wordpress.com/2011/02/trampier1.jpeg
I think that the artwork has tended to show a narrower range of body types and looks for females than for males. It would be nice to have a little more variety in the depictions of women, while still offering the classic pop fantasy babes.
Yes, I’m aware that a lot of male characters are portrayed as handsome, clean-cut, buff, and so on. But I can think of some fairly big exceptions to the pretty boy rule:
Elminster is a wrinkly old hippie with a big nose. Face like a hunk of firewood. His beard might stink.
Mirt the Moneylender (my favorite Greenwood character by far) is both fat and old.
I don’t know much about ‘Erevis Cale’ but the cover art makes him look like a British soccer hooligan, not a pretty boy. Is he shaving that dome, or just bald as an egg?
Where are the female equivalents?
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 26 Aug 2012 23:13:27 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 01:37:32
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| Have you checked among the dwarves? Seems I saw a few of them hiding there.... And maybe among the orcs, too. Pretty sure those ladies won't win any beauty pageants. JK. I for one would not mind more women being portrayed "realistically"- ie, without big boobs and perfect figures. Maybe a few tall, willowy types, short, dumpy ladies, or (PLEASE!!!) a petite, short, and slender lass who can still hold her own with the taller folk. (A la Gabrielle from Xena. She was only 5'2", ya know...) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 02:24:50
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I would like to see more artwork with male sex appeal. Conan like thongs all around! Why does their clothing have to be so loose? If they are going to make art work it might as well be aesthetically appealing. I think that is more widely appealing. How often do people imagine a character that is not appealing in some way? In peoples' fantasies they are beautiful and powerful, I don't see a problem with that.
combatmedic - In regards to "whiteness" it sounds like you are disagreeing with me by repeating back to me what I said... Also, I don't live in the United States so I have no idea how race is dealt with there. Why are you assuming I know things about the society of the United States?
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 02:51:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Gabrielle_H
quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
This might not be acceptable content for an Eye on the Realms article, but I'd be interested in reading an article or short story about same-gender characters who seek arcane assistance, divine magical aid or some other supernatural method to temporarily transform one of the pair to the opposite sex so the couple can have children--along with all the trials and tribulations that search might bring.
It's not technically Realmslore, but you can check out Ed's story in WHEN THE HERO COMES HOME to see him take on this kind of situation.
(And thus ends my shameless self-promotion for the week, and a return to posts that are not about my books. ;) )
Just started When the Villain Comes Home....good stuff!
Paul S kemp's new book The Hamer and the Blade has something along those lines, but twisted. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 03:28:51
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I would like to see more artwork with male sex appeal. Conan like thongs all around! Why does their clothing have to be so loose? If they are going to make art work it might as well be aesthetically appealing. I think that is more widely appealing. How often do people imagine a character that is not appealing in some way? In peoples' fantasies they are beautiful and powerful, I don't see a problem with that.
combatmedic - In regards to "whiteness" it sounds like you are disagreeing with me by repeating back to me what I said... Also, I don't live in the United States so I have no idea how race is dealt with there. Why are you assuming I know things about the society of the United States?
• I'm not assuming that you know much about 'race' or color issues in the United States. That's why I mentioned these things. I don’t know where you live, where you grew up, or what information you have about my country’s history.
We can’t communicate effectively in this topic if I mean one thing by ‘white people’ and you mean something considerably different, and neither one of us realizes that there the other one is using a different definition.
I'm arguing that:
• 'Race' as you seem to conceive of it is not part of the cultures of Faerun as described in canon sources. I see no evidence that people in Faerun use something similar to one of the ‘racial’ classification systems that developed only in the last few centuries in our world.
Thus ‘whiteness’ is not relevant in-universe.
• 'White people' is such a broad, variable, and vaguely defined category as to be almost meaningless without proper context. If you write ‘white people' or ‘racially white’ in the context of Apartheid South Africa or 20th Century America, I know just what you mean. If you use it in the context of 4th Century Europe, I'm going to be left shaking my head wondering what you think 'the white race' has got to do with the time period or the cultures in question (petty much nothing, as it turns out).
Thus, ‘whiteness’ is not something we can readily discuss without first defining terms and taking into account cultural differences among the audience (the gamers and novel readers).
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 03:47:37
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The discussion of the artwork is not an "in-universe" argument. When we call for more diversity in the artwork, we are not saying "the art should represent the Realms better," rather that the art should "appeal to more groups of people in our world better."
Take a look at any of the sourcebooks, and count up the number of clearly "white" humans (that is pale-skinned humans with facial features consistent with what we think of as European Caucasian) vs. how many humans *aren't*. Demihuman races that aren't drow are depicted almost exclusively with pale skin.
This needs to stop. I'm not saying we need lots of dark-skinned people--just a substantial minority. Say 20% minimum. And dark-skinned characters portrayed in postures and body types that are just as strong/powerful as their light-skinned counterparts.
And speaking of "in-universe," we've talked about how many folks in the Realms are actually pale-skinned (pretty much just those of Illuskan heritage). If we want the art to reflect the "in-universe" racial makeup, then we're looking at more of a 80% brown-skinned characters, 20% light-skinned characters percentage.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 04:10:53
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quote:
Originally posted by MrHedgehog
I would like to see more artwork with male sex appeal. Conan like thongs all around! Why does their clothing have to be so loose? If they are going to make art work it might as well be aesthetically appealing. I think that is more widely appealing. How often do people imagine a character that is not appealing in some way? In peoples' fantasies they are beautiful and powerful, I don't see a problem with that.
As far as fantasies go, plenty of gamers play imaginary characters (PCs) who are neither beautiful nor physically powerful. Many people do not describe their characters as 'sexy.' Maybe you strongly prefer a certain look and style for your characters. That's cool. No one has objected to your preferences.
I think a broader range of colors, shapes, sizes would be nice. I think more women in sensible clothing and/or plausible armor would be a plus.
This guy has a nice picture of a female fighter in sensible gear. Not an action pose, but I like it. Top row, third from the left:
http://www.quellion.com/portfolio/Color%20Work/index.html
It's actually pretty difficult to find fantasy RPG themed art of women who aren't objectified. Skimpy clothing, huge boobs, and wildly impractical armor are really, really common. I'm talking hella common. This may have something to do with the male to female ratio in the hobby, as with comic books.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking the pinup girl or the odalisque as genres, nor am I suggesting that every adventuring woman must be depicted as rough, scruffy, plain, or even practical.
I'd just like more...
...diversity.
YMMV :)
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 04:16:12
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Agreed on the call for diversity of artwork. There's plenty of room for the cheesy, the skimpy, and the well-endowed. It's just that not EVERY FEMALE CHARACTER has to fall into that category. I want a range of body types, clothing styles, etc. A character should not have to be sex-candy to be attractive, appealing, or interesting to look at.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 05:08:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
The discussion of the artwork is not an "in-universe" argument. When we call for more diversity in the artwork, we are not saying "the art should represent the Realms better," rather that the art should "appeal to more groups of people in our world better."
Take a look at any of the sourcebooks, and count up the number of clearly "white" humans (that is pale-skinned humans with facial features consistent with what we think of as European Caucasian) vs. how many humans *aren't*. Demihuman races that aren't drow are depicted almost exclusively with pale skin.
This needs to stop. I'm not saying we need lots of dark-skinned people--just a substantial minority. Say 20% minimum. And dark-skinned characters portrayed in postures and body types that are just as strong/powerful as their light-skinned counterparts.
And speaking of "in-universe," we've talked about how many folks in the Realms are actually pale-skinned (pretty much just those of Illuskan heritage). If we want the art to reflect the "in-universe" racial makeup, then we're looking at more of a 80% brown-skinned characters, 20% light-skinned characters percentage.
Cheers
Well the art reflects the artist's interpreation, the art director's decisions, and the author's choice of characters and setting.
How many Realms novels are set in Turmish?
BTW, according to some women's beauty sites, this is 'tawny skin':
http://www.beautyandstyle.com/hair-beauty/makeup/color-trends/perfect-colors-tawny-skin
http://www.instyle.com/instyle/package/general/photos/0,,20337040_20416247_20835073,00.html#
http://www.wallpaperextreme.com/Wallpapers-Eva-Mendes/Eva-Mendes-81.JPG.html
I don’t know about you, but I could fairly describe all three women as 'white.' Eva Mendes is an American of Spanish ancestry by way of Cuba. Spaniards are white, aren't they?
Lindsay Price's mother is of Korean ancestry. Her dad has ancestors from Germany and Ireland.
I don't know the name or background of the first woman, but the pic is tagged mulatto beauty. She does look as if she has a mix of fair skinned European and dark skinned African ancestry. The ‘white European’ features seem to dominate. She could 'pass' as 'white' in much of the United States.
So, you see how it could become a bit confusing to refer to about 'white people' when others aren't sure what you mean.
Do you mean that all the characters on novel covers look like (not are) very pale Northern European natives?
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 27 Aug 2012 15:38:36 |
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Diversity in the realms
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