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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
 Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 03:26:28
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This has become an odd subject - almost a 'catch twenty two', as it were (that probably doesn't translate well, and may even be unknown to younger persons). Basically, its a "which came first?" scenario.
Is Pathfinder more liberal because its fans are more liberal, or are their fans more liberal because Pathfinder is more liberal?
And then we have to turn the mirror upon ourselves... why do the people in charge of D&D feel we will only be receptive to "robust white male' stereotypes? Hopefully, its merely an archaic throw-back from the earlier days of D&D. I'd hate to think they actually did some research in order to draw that conclusion.
Of course, I think a 6' cut-out of Alias would have gotten more attention then those Redgar stand-ups they had in stores when 3e was released, but that would have sent an equally bad message. 
Since we are all on the subject, and 5e is on its way, what does everyone here think? What 'poster child' should we have for 5e (and maybe for FR)? 4e came in with a whimper, and I think that was a really bad approach, so hopefully they will have some sort of advertising budget this time out. What should be 'on the cover' (or in the ads, or as cardboard stand-ups in stores, etc). What is going to make folks stop and look, and want to buy this game?
Personally, my vote (for ads) goes to a giant Dragon about to eat four (or five) adventurers - diverse folk of the core classes. New art, but go 'old school' with content - have them opening up a treasure, and the dragon rising up out of the darkness behind them. Stick those in the game and book stores (damn shame we lost so many bookstores). That works as a full-page ad, for posters, and it works for giant cardboard cutouts in stores. Maybe even have the treasure chest (on the displays) have a bunch of rip-off coupon-thingies -
"Just visit our site for a chance to win a copy of the game, miniatures, subscriptions, and more"
Of course they'll have to enter their E-Mail address.. you know, for more 'special offers'. Bait the hook, and use good (diverse) art to do it. Now all we have to do is decide who's going to be in the party ('cause D&D needs some new archtypes, badly). |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 03 Sep 2012 07:08:00 |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 05:26:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Sqwegle
Since this seems to be touchy I am going to put my 2 cents in and hope nothing can be taken the wrong way. If you have a question about this post then, please, ask me before you make an assumption. That said...
There is one reason I play D&D and read fantasy fiction; that is to escape the day-to-day grind of life in the real world. I want to read about adventures in lands I will never see, hear tales of daring-do and ride along as the last dragon is slain and the village rescued. Yeah, that is a bit cheesy but that is really what 90% of fantasy is.
The last thing I want is to have this invaded by issues in the real world being ported over. I miss the days, even in Realms fiction, where an orc was an orc and that was it. I want a dragon to be a dragon and not the symbol of "X-Modern Evil" oppressing a village that is really "Y-Modern People". I dislike allegory and symbolism and all I want is a story that is a great adventure.
^This. |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 18:13:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Sqwegle
Since this seems to be touchy I am going to put my 2 cents in and hope nothing can be taken the wrong way. If you have a question about this post then, please, ask me before you make an assumption. That said...
There is one reason I play D&D and read fantasy fiction; that is to escape the day-to-day grind of life in the real world. I want to read about adventures in lands I will never see, hear tales of daring-do and ride along as the last dragon is slain and the village rescued. Yeah, that is a bit cheesy but that is really what 90% of fantasy is.
The last thing I want is to have this invaded by issues in the real world being ported over. I miss the days, even in Realms fiction, where an orc was an orc and that was it. I want a dragon to be a dragon and not the symbol of "X-Modern Evil" oppressing a village that is really "Y-Modern People". I dislike allegory and symbolism and all I want is a story that is a great adventure.
This to Infinity. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 18:15:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This has become an odd subject - almost a 'catch twenty two', as it were (that probably doesn't translate well, and may even be unknown to younger persons). Basically, its a "which came first?" scenario.
Is Pathfinder more liberal because its fans are more liberal, or are their fans more liberal because Pathfinder is more liberal?
And then we have to turn the mirror upon ourselves... why do the people in charge of D&D feel we will only be receptive to "robust white male' stereotypes? Hopefully, its merely an archaic throw-back from the earlier days of D&D. I'd hate to think they actually did some research in order to draw that conclusion.
Of course, I think a 6' cut-out of Alias would have gotten more attention then those Redgar stand-ups they had in stores when 3e was released, but that would have sent an equally bad message.
Since we are all on the subject, and 5e is on its way, what does everyone here think? What 'poster child' should we have for 5e (and maybe for FR)? 4e came in with a whimper, and I think that was a really bad approach, so hopefully they will have some sort of advertising budget this time out. What should be 'on the cover' (or in the ads, or as cardboard stand-ups in stores, etc). What is going to make folks stop and look, and want to buy this game?
Personally, my vote (for ads) goes to a giant Dragon about to eat four (or five) adventurers - diverse folk of the core classes. New art, but go 'old school' with content - have them opening up a treasure, and the dragon rising up out of the darkness behind them. Stick those in the game and book stores (damn shame we lost so many bookstores). That works as a full-page ad, for posters, and it works for giant cardboard cutouts in stores. Maybe even have the treasure chest (on the displays) have a bunch of rip-off coupon-thingies -
"Just visit our site for a chance to win a copy of the game, miniatures, subscriptions, and more"
Of course they'll have to enter their E-Mail address.. you know, for more 'special offers'. Bait the hook, and use good (diverse) art to do it. Now all we have to do is decide who's going to be in the party ('cause D&D needs some new archtypes, badly).
Just use the art work from the GenCon What is the Sundering? It's got a bit of everything in it. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Gustaveren
Learned Scribe
Denmark
197 Posts |
Posted - 03 Sep 2012 : 18:29:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
This has become an odd subject - almost a 'catch twenty two', as it were (that probably doesn't translate well, and may even be unknown to younger persons). Basically, its a "which came first?" scenario.
Is Pathfinder more liberal because its fans are more liberal, or are their fans more liberal because Pathfinder is more liberal?
Age makes a difference. Well, i am not sure if that is the case in America, but at least in my home country (Denmark) are there major age differences in voting patterns between 18-24 year olds and 24-35 year olds when it comes to issues like cross-culture marriages for people there in economic terms are in the center and the right.
(we are having a many party system (8.th different parties) due to proportional vote with a minimum threshold of 2%) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 01:30:39
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
Nope, I haven't misunderstood you at all, I'm not advocating going PC by any means, nor for using allegorical tales for RW issues. I don't NEED to, because it's beenthere all along, if one knows where/how to find it. That was my point. Writers have been seeding the material with ideas like these since the beginning. Not to overuse an example, but Drizzt is pretty much the poster-boy for the kind or RW problems faced by indivduals of certain backgrounds or races/species (whichever term you prefer) in the REalms. And yet look how popular he is, and how well his books sell. There's obviously a market for these stories, most likely from the very people who relate to those characters for that very reason. People who are "different" in some way from the "typical" white/straight mindset of the general public. And let's face it, there's really no such thing as a "typical" gamer any more- ever since gaming went main-stream, its appeal had spread to people of all lifestyles, ethnicities, races, backgrounds, nationalities, etc....
I'm saying exactly what Erik is- that WotC needs to understand that and work with that in mind. A Hispanic player doen't want to see nothing but pale white characters in the art or in character descriptions, any more than a Caucasian would want to see a book full of nothing but Middle-Eastern characters (Unless it's dealing with that culture specifically, like Al-Quadim or Calimshan. At least then it makes sense.) What Erik and I are saying, basically, is that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? So it would be pretty silly of WotC NOT to look at the bigger picture, market-wise, and thry to broaden their appeal to non-white players and fans. It doesn't have to be blatent or spelled-out; it just needs to be addressed with respect and understanding. And if a few people get offended by that approach, they are probably too thin-skinned to be playing or to appreciate the stories to begin with. Fantasy in general has always attracted a more open-minded type of readers and fans to begin with, so why not reflect that in the writing and the art?
Okay, this needs to be pointed out, so long as you are on about 'diversity' and 'PC':
HISPANIC is not a race, a skin tone, a nationality, or an ethnic group.
Please stop using 'Hispanic' to mean something it doesn't, guys. A blond haired, fair skinned, blue eyed Mexican woman of Castilian descent is as 'Hispanic' as an Afro-Columbian.
I had a buddy in the Army, named Fernandez. He was fair skinned with freckles and light brown hair, hazel eyes. A 'white' person. A female officer who had been looking for him (she only knew his name and rank, not his face) actually told him 'I thought you'd be browner."
That was without a hint of irony.
Your misuse of the term could be very offensive to some folks.
OMG!!!! There was NOTHING racist about that post. AT ALL. First, I used the term Hispanic only in it's "loosest" sense (ie- what most people think of when they hear/see the term). I myself work with several people of Hispanic background (note I did not say race or ethnicity here) who look just as "white" as an Irish-descent person like me. If not for last names, one would never know the difference. But you better believe they still have pride in their heritage!
Secondly, I believe Erik again said it best. Nothing was intended as offensive in any way, and in fact, I don't believe anyone else took it that way. I think you really ARE reading things into it that simply aren't there. Even the terms "race" or "ethnicity" are sort of loaded, but they are easy to understand by most people as "where someone comes from/their family history and lineage". Tell someone you're Irish, and they will pretty much assume you are red-haired, green-eyed, and talk with a Brogue if they've never actually met you. Never mind what you actually look like, it's all about perception, which is, unfortunately, ingrained in most folks. It doesn't matter whether it's true or not, most people have a pre-concieved notion of what certain backgrounds look like and/or entail. Which was basically the point.
Sheesh, start discussing skin-tones(in a perfectly respectful manner, I'll point out), and suddenly people start getting a little thin-skinned or offended? Wow. Does stating the obvious fact of a person's probable preference for seeing their own skin-tones and hair/eye colors depicted in the art make me racist? Then I guess I MUST be....    (That was sarcasm, BTW...) |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36982 Posts |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 04:28:53
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It seems to me from reading through this ecclectic scrol, it just boils down to one thing....
The art needs to reflect the realms.
The realms is as diverse as anything you will find in all of fiction.....The realms lacks nothing in diversity, it just has an image that it doesn't due to the artwork that you see on overs and advertisements. |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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Dark Wizard
Senior Scribe
USA
830 Posts |
Posted - 04 Sep 2012 : 06:02:20
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Reposting some relevant information regarding the 3E Core Iconics:
From Monte Cook's perspective, comments have some WotC alum chiming in with their thoughts: http://montecook.livejournal.com/150303.html
Enworld discussion based on Todd Lockwood's comments posted in his own site's gallery relating to his work as a concept artist for 3e: http://www.enworld.org/forum/general-rpg-discussion/233330-racially-diverse-artwork-d-d-does-influence-you.html
The discussion made good points about many literary fantasy settings being racially diverse, as well as notable fantasy movies when setting appropriate (Conan, Beastmaster).
@Markustay regarding Pathfinder
Interestingly the iconic fighter for Pathfinder is Valeros, who literally is the (seemingly white male) farmboy from Andoran. Although I think they also went the route of somewhat racially ambiguous features.
I think the difference is Paizo used the Iconics concept better than Wizards. The art illustrates the various iconics more consistently and makes more frequent use of the other iconics who are more diverse. There doesn't seem to be a mandate to feature Valeros over the others. If anything Seoni is probably the iconic who gets the most depictions, going back to the Alias over Regdar idea you brought up. It works.
Where as WotC seemed to reuse the same few over and over while barely showing their more diverse ones. Or when it came time to show a particular class, they opted for another example (Turmian wizard on Complete Arcane), giving the iconics even less face time. They made some poor icon choices, partly due to the interjection of Regdar. It meant in the main four classes, they had two white males (Regdar and Jozan) most of the time. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 00:36:14
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| Sorry about that Wooly, but that particular post greated at me for reasons I won't go into. Had to make clear what the actual intent was, in case someone couldn't figure it out on their own. No worries guys- It's all gravy! But, I agree fully with most here that the Realms, and D&D in general, has made a poor use of some of its "iconic" characters, and of showing diversity in the art. It's sad, really, that while we as a group (meaning gamers and fans) have progressed so far over the years, even becoming almost mainstream in many respects (what MMORPG DOESN'T owe its inspiration/existence to D&D?!), the industry itself still has far to go. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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avaz
Acolyte
USA
7 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 02:52:05
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Eric pointed me to this thread, so I thought I'd post my comments on what I would love to see in 5E Realms:
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This might not even be a "used to" thing, but I'd like to see more varied human races in a much more "active" distributed through the realms materials. Especially novels. I really liked the art director's vision of watching people go by in NY. Multiple ethnicities, cultures, skin tones, etc.. As I think about introducing my children to this it made me think about what I loved about D&D in general. It was the story and the ability to think of myself as a hero in those stories. Everyone wants heroes they can see a bit of themselves in. You'll notice in comics they are starting to focus on diversifying their casts a bit more as well. To take my family as an example, my ancestry is eastern indian, my wife is german/irish/other, and my children are a mix of all of that, except for one who is Ethiopian. We have a full color and culture range between us. I would love for them all to be able to "see" themselves in these stories and adventures going forward.
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Art, Novels, Powerful NPCs - would be nice to see some creative and active representation in that context. The more I think of it, I really think Pathfinder is getting it right in this regard with their iconics and gaming material.
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 03:27:58
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"Someone" knows racism when he sees it.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Aryalómë
Senior Scribe
USA
666 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 05:15:34
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I don't see why people need to show "diversity" when most of the D&D settings have either been based on or heavily focused on European cultures/peoples. Sorry to tell all of the inclusive folks, but you aren't going to see non Europid types of people in these types of settings (except those that actually have them in them).
I have my own fantasy world that I'm working on and I am wholly basing it on Western and Northern Europe, and only the races/sub races from these parts of the world will be present.
Why do people feel the need to be so inclusive about everything? If it was modeled specifically after something, then why are you trying to shove what you think it should be to actually BE?
I know FR is based on the world at large. It's only those who have ordered the artwork's fault. They themselves should have requested that different races of the Realms should have been present in them. But they didn't.
And just to pipe this bit in:
Europid styled/influenced people seem to be restricted to a very small part of Toril. Even the continent that holds the bulk of the Europid people has a rather large number of non Europids residing there (Chultans, Calashites, Mulan (though these appear to be Europid based as were ancient Egyptians), etc). Other continents, such as Kara-Tur, Zhakhara and Maztica are all based on non Europid cultures and people. So really, Europids influenced people have a very little presence in the whole of Toril, which is a good reason as to why they have been the focus of the Realms. |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 05:39:49
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I don't think there's anything wrong with people who play the game wanting to see more variety in the art, given the variety that exists in Faerun's human population. That's simply wanting the art to reflect the established setting. No big deal, and no need to inject racist left wing politics into the matter.
Political correctness is chock-full of the worst sort of racism. There's enough of that racist garbage in the real world without it infecting the game I enjoy so much.
'Diversity' for political ends is tokenism.
'Progressive' politics shouldn't be shoehorned into FR or D&D.
Just give us a game world, an escapist fantasy setting without a lot of preaching. It's nice to have a hobby where real world poltical matters are left at the door.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 06 Sep 2012 05:50:05 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 06:29:26
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There's a difference between wanting to see the art actually portray what it's MEANT to, and just being PC. No one here is talking about being PC for it's own sake, AFAIK. We're talking about wanting the art to reflect what was already there. Nothing token or political about that- unless it makes folks uncomfortable to see the Realms as a living, changing, diverse world. (Which it IS.) But hey, what do I know? I'm (apparently) just a hypocritical, politically progressive racist.* 
*This is sarcasm, for those who can't figure it out on their own.... |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 06:51:22
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Being as progressives have a well-known history of being virulent racists (Sanger is a fine example) I should think that someone trying to appear as a non-racist wouldn't be so quick to proclaim loyalty to a hate-filled, evil ideology.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 06:52:04
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| That wasn't sarcasm, for those too stupid to figure it out. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Jeremy Grenemyer
Great Reader
USA
2717 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 06:58:41
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| Sage or Wooly, can you guys step in here please and put a stop to this petty back and forth sniping and the overly opinionated political talk? It's getting really tiresome. |
Look for me and my content at EN World (user name: sanishiver). |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 07:09:26
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quote:
Originally posted by Jeremy Grenemyer
Sage or Wooly, can you guys step in here please and put a stop to this petty back and forth sniping and the overly opinionated political talk? It's getting really tiresome.
Don't worry, I think that I'm done communicating with the bigot.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 07:20:20
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I agree- and it's utterly ridiculous. No one here is claiming to be anything, progressive, PC, or otherwise. It just sort of strikes me as inflamatory that anyone would label someone as such, not to mention calling a particular ideology evil or hate-filled, which really IS kind of bigoted and hypocritical, IMHO.
Personally, I enjoy discussing topics of relevance to the Realms, particularly those topics that bring more life and variety to the setting. Topics that make the world more vivid and "real" in the sense that we can be immersed in it as players and readers of the novels. A pity that there always have to be bad apples turning civilized discussions into pointless sessions of bashing this or that person or idea, mud-slinging, etc. But it happens. And then we move on. I'd really just prefer if we could leave baseless accusations and name-calling behind and just stick to the topic at hand, but I'd say at this point, I've said it as clearly as is possible, and we all seem to be in agreement on the issue. YMMV, of course. Anyone have any new insights?
What about diversity among elves, dwarves, or halflings? We can't forget the small folk, after all! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 07:43:04
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Yes, Jeremy, I agree that it was utterly ridiculous for me to interact with a racist on a gaming forum. Call it foolish idealism, but sometimes I entertain unreasonable expectations about the basic intelligence and fundamental decency of other human beings. Some people just cannot be reached.
The only thing that would be more ridiculous than the argument having occurred in this inappropriate forum would be for one of the two participants to pretend to be above the matter. My integrity forbids me such the luxury of such self-indulgent hypocrisy. I know I was engaged in a fight against bigotry and ignorance. My opponent seems to believe she’s a special snowflake who doesn’t sully her hands with combat. So be it. I leave her to her delusions.
Now, if we are quite finished with parting shots, how about practical suggestions?
Artists should be given a reference sheet with basic descriptions of the typical appearances and traits of the various Faerunian ethnicities as well as of the non-human races (this may already be the case).
If the market seems favorable, some additional sourcebooks and novels should explore further afield than the commonly used Heartlands and the North. Stories of high adventure on the dry plains of the Shaar or in the jungles of Chult, for example, may appeal to many customers. Naturally enough, we would expect characters native to those regions to be depicted in such works.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 06 Sep 2012 07:48:26 |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 06 Sep 2012 : 08:00:07
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That's enough! We don't need that kind of name-calling here at Candlekeep, combatmedic. It's running right up against the dictates of the Code of Conduct.
I'm temporarily sealing this scroll pending a review, as suspensions may need to be handed out to certain offending parties.
*Casts Temporary Seal Scroll* |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Diversity in the realms
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