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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

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I think you seriously misconstrued my meaning there. It had nothing to do with "equivalent" religions, but with the resulting fanaticism of certain faiths in Faerun, particularly the "evil" ones. This very much akin to certain fringe groups in the RW, just as the E.V. has it's own real-world analog. (and I don't think we need to mention its name, all those elves are missing is the white sheets....) Even nationalism gets taken to extremes in the FR, just as we see in RL. This was the point of my earlier post. It's there, whether we use it in games or not. The game books occasionally mention some of these groups, just as the novels sometimes bring them into focus. Entire areas may even be dominated by some of these groups or mind-sets, both in game and in the novels. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away, unless you run/play your games where it doesn't exist. But that would make for both a boring novel OR game, IMHO.

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Originally posted by Markustay

I know, I know, I just find it funny, is all. Its okay to kill Orcs on-sight, before they even do anything wrong, simply because they are Orcs. (There is a scene in The Orc king where a couple of perfectly innocent hunters are killed on their way home, while talking about how their wives are going to kill them for being late. From that point on, I realized Drizzt and the companions were murderers).

Anyhow, I have been thinking about the ideas revolving around a 'New Thay', being discussed in other threads. Whether its on Thayan soil, down in Unther, or elsewhere, I think portraying a formerly 'known evil' group as expatriates trying to 'liberate' their homeland (or just gain a homeland) as something very morally neutral. It shouldn't matter what they've done before - they need help now. And maybe, if they get help, they won't be so damn evil down the line. Thats the kind of 'epic story-telling' I think the Realms needs, you don't have to blow crap up to make huge differences.

When old enemies suddenly face a common (new) threat, oft-times they ally. 'Politics makes strange bedfellows', and all that. There is no reason why a Harper, a Zhent, and a Red Wizard couldn't work together to free a region from a demon ruling it. They may all have different reasons for wanting it, but its all part of that 'diversity' I think makes the Realms truly shine. Evil should never be so 'black & white'. Humans in a fantasy setting have far more in-common then they do differences (comparatively).

What if - in 1490 DR - a devil is ruling in the ruins of Zhentil Keep? A Harper would definitely want that out of there. A Zhent would also probably want to get that thing out of there. But what about a Red Wizard? Could it be his wife (or just lost love) was once a sleeper agent in Zhentil keep, and now he wants to know whatever became of her? People normally thought of as 'evil' are capable of great good under the right circumstances, even if they hadn't meant for that outcome to begin with.

More 'shades of gray', more diversity. Thats what we need to see in The Forgotten Realms. Give me an Amazon warrior who saves an effeminate male prince from a dragon - put the stereotypes on their head. How about a halfling that's a clutz? Or a clever Orc? Or a dwarf who isn't so ornery (okay, we've had a few of those). An elf that hates the forest? How about a gnome, period (one who isn't fascinated by every mechanical gadget he comes across)?

But don't do it just to do it - I want characters that feel real. I want to know why they are the way they are. What makes them tick. This harkens back to the early part of this conversation - creating gay characters just for the 'shock value'. Thats as bad as blowing crap up. I don't just want diversity, I want good diversity.

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Originally posted by Thrasymachus


As to racial diversity let’s see Wizards bring back Kara-Tur, and Maztica. Go for it. If diversity is what the people want then those should sell like hot cakes.
But if what is being suggested is that the Heartlands be made more diverse than they already are, then I would point to Kara-Tur, and Maztica and ask why they didn’t sell the first time around. There already was Egyptian style areas in Mulround/Unther. Didn’t those just get whacked in the last go around? The Bedine in Anorach were styled on the Middle East I thought. I have the source books for just in case. There wasn’t a lot of follow up material put out for those.

I didn’t assume that it was a Euro style setting because of the diversity that’s already been spelled out in the post prior to this one. I also thought if we wanted to play on the diversity dance card that we had different species for that. And YMMV, but I have played for over 2 decades, and no one has ever put “White” or “Euro” on his or her character sheet.

Why can’t there be more places like Thay, which strikes me as a completely fictional culture, and the same themes can be played out? Adding more real life to a fantasy world isn’t necessarily a plus. I don’t think there’s a push for real life religion to be represented in the Realms either, with a RSE in the form of Holy Wars chaser. Now that would be diverse, and crack smoking stupid. It’s easy to insult a whole community.

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Originally posted by combatmedic

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis

[quote]

I think you seriously misconstrued my meaning there. It had nothing to do with "equivalent" religions, but with the resulting fanaticism of certain faiths in Faerun, particularly the "evil" ones. This very much akin to certain fringe groups in the RW, just as the E.V. has it's own real-world analog. (and I don't think we need to mention its name, all those elves are missing is the white sheets....) Even nationalism gets taken to extremes in the FR, just as we see in RL. This was the point of my earlier post. It's there, whether we use it in games or not. The game books occasionally mention some of these groups, just as the novels sometimes bring them into focus. Entire areas may even be dominated by some of these groups or mind-sets, both in game and in the novels. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away, unless you run/play your games where it doesn't exist. But that would make for both a boring novel OR game, IMHO.

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To paraphrase Tolkien, we should be careful not to confuse applicability with allegory.
If I misunderstood you, you have also misunderstood me.

None of the things you mention are especially controversial in the United States today. Damned few people are in favor of genocide, terrorism, or violent religious extremism. Fictional 'evil religious fanatics' whose religious are clearly just made up are not going to offend many gamers. Some nasty elvish 'racial' supremacists are not going to offend more than a tiny number of gamers.

I never argued that the game books should not present villains. I never argued that the game books should never ever have anything that might possibly offend someone. I’m writing about the market and the social and political climate we live in, not just a few individuals.

My argument is that too strong an emphasis on hot button real world social issues like race/color, homosexuality, abortion, and real world religions is a terrible approach to the game-line. It would generate a lot of pointless, stupid flame wars on fan sites. It would create negative publicity among gamers. FR could get labeled as pretentious and overwrought, or worse- preachy. That’s not a good way to sell D&D stuff.

I don't see any problems with the current game book line as regards to political controversies or 'culture war' stuff. I see few or no problems of that nature with the FR game line from 1987 through today. My concern is that a vocal minority of fans will try to pressure Hasbro into sucking fun out of FR and making the game books 'politically correct.'

I hope this clears up any confusion on your part as to what I am calling for in regards to both the game line and the fiction line.
Game line: Continue doing the things that made FR a big success: writing and releasing high quality escapist fantasy gaming material. Stay out of the ‘culture wars.’
Fiction Line Go ahead and branch out into ‘edgier’ areas in the novels if you like; just avoid author tracts and allegorical tales.
-addendum: Splitting the fiction into adult and young adult line might be a good idea. The ‘mature’ stuff can go in the adult books. Then again, maybe not.

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Originally posted by The Red Walker

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Originally posted by Markustay

I know, I know, I just find it funny, is all. Its okay to kill Orcs on-sight, before they even do anything wrong, simply because they are Orcs. (There is a scene in The Orc king where a couple of perfectly innocent hunters are killed on their way home, while talking about how their wives are going to kill them for being late. From that point on, I realized Drizzt and the companions were murderers).

Anyhow, I have been thinking about the ideas revolving around a 'New Thay', being discussed in other threads. Whether its on Thayan soil, down in Unther, or elsewhere, I think portraying a formerly 'known evil' group as expatriates trying to 'liberate' their homeland (or just gain a homeland) as something very morally neutral. It shouldn't matter what they've done before - they need help now. And maybe, if they get help, they won't be so damn evil down the line. Thats the kind of 'epic story-telling' I think the Realms needs, you don't have to blow crap up to make huge differences.

When old enemies suddenly face a common (new) threat, oft-times they ally. 'Politics makes strange bedfellows', and all that. There is no reason why a Harper, a Zhent, and a Red Wizard couldn't work together to free a region from a demon ruling it. They may all have different reasons for wanting it, but its all part of that 'diversity' I think makes the Realms truly shine. Evil should never be so 'black & white'. Humans in a fantasy setting have far more in-common then they do differences (comparatively).

What if - in 1490 DR - a devil is ruling in the ruins of Zhentil Keep? A Harper would definitely want that out of there. A Zhent would also probably want to get that thing out of there. But what about a Red Wizard? Could it be his wife (or just lost love) was once a sleeper agent in Zhentil keep, and now he wants to know whatever became of her? People normally thought of as 'evil' are capable of great good under the right circumstances, even if they hadn't meant for that outcome to begin with.

More 'shades of gray', more diversity. Thats what we need to see in The Forgotten Realms. Give me an Amazon warrior who saves an effeminate male prince from a dragon - put the stereotypes on their head. How about a halfling that's a clutz? Or a clever Orc? Or a dwarf who isn't so ornery (okay, we've had a few of those). An elf that hates the forest? How about a gnome, period (one who isn't fascinated by every mechanical gadget he comes across)?

But don't do it just to do it - I want characters that feel real. I want to know why they are the way they are. What makes them tick. This harkens back to the early part of this conversation - creating gay characters just for the 'shock value'. Thats as bad as blowing crap up. I don't just want diversity, I want good diversity.

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When did orcs stop being monsters and start being "people"? I
Mean wtf? That's when I quit reading Drizzt. When orcs were sacrificed to teach tolerance lessons and made into something they have never been in most fiction...ever. And that's ok I guess, but it cost some readers, because there went a little. Orner of escapism for me and became "too real world" . Does that make me a bad guy? Because I like monsters who are monsters, not some sad downtrodden misunderstood people.

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Originally posted by Gustaveren

Well, one reasons I found thesk interesting in 3e FR was the shoutowns.
Since I have a chinese wife is it interesting for me to consider the different kinds of conflicts there can occur when you have an area with a union of western and chinese culture.
It was also an opportunity for me to use some of the chinese legends I had read about while still keeping the campaign atmosphere western since my players was fond of areas they had some cultural familarity with.
Nevertheless, since globalisation has created a massive increase in information across borders / between cultures and a large increase in marriages* between cultures will it probably be a lot more interesting today with roleplaying setting with different cultures compared to 20 years ago.

*In the final year (2011) of the anti-immigration government in Denmark had marriages between foreigners and danes increased to be 1 of every 7 new marriage

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

One should take care when creating/developing a pseudo-Asian culture in a fantasy world. It's easy to be offensive, stereotypical, or cliche. To many, the word "oriental" is offensive in and of itself. That doesn't mean it shouldn't happen--only that one should be careful.

Cheers

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Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis


Nope, I haven't misunderstood you at all, I'm not advocating going PC by any means, nor for using allegorical tales for RW issues. I don't NEED to, because it's beenthere all along, if one knows where/how to find it. That was my point. Writers have been seeding the material with ideas like these since the beginning. Not to overuse an example, but Drizzt is pretty much the poster-boy for the kind or RW problems faced by indivduals of certain backgrounds or races/species (whichever term you prefer) in the REalms. And yet look how popular he is, and how well his books sell. There's obviously a market for these stories, most likely from the very people who relate to those characters for that very reason. People who are "different" in some way from the "typical" white/straight mindset of the general public. And let's face it, there's really no such thing as a "typical" gamer any more- ever since gaming went main-stream, its appeal had spread to people of all lifestyles, ethnicities, races, backgrounds, nationalities, etc....

I'm saying exactly what Erik is- that WotC needs to understand that and work with that in mind. A Hispanic player doen't want to see nothing but pale white characters in the art or in character descriptions, any more than a Caucasian would want to see a book full of nothing but Middle-Eastern characters (Unless it's dealing with that culture specifically, like Al-Quadim or Calimshan. At least then it makes sense.) What Erik and I are saying, basically, is that what's good for the goose is good for the gander, right? So it would be pretty silly of WotC NOT to look at the bigger picture, market-wise, and thry to broaden their appeal to non-white players and fans. It doesn't have to be blatent or spelled-out; it just needs to be addressed with respect and understanding. And if a few people get offended by that approach, they are probably too thin-skinned to be playing or to appreciate the stories to begin with. Fantasy in general has always attracted a more open-minded type of readers and fans to begin with, so why not reflect that in the writing and the art?

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Originally posted by Kajehase

If we're being picky about misuse of the word race, the number of human races currently not extinct is one, and has been so since the death of the last Neanderthal.

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Originally posted by Dark Wizard


I don’t think an Asia-inspired setting is vital to expanding into Asian markets. The potential fans in that part of the world would likely already be predisposed to consuming Western culture (such as the popularity of the Ironman movies there, and virtually everywhere for that matter). They would probably want Faerun instead.

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Originally posted by Gustaveren

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Originally posted by Dark Wizard

I don’t think an Asia-inspired setting is vital to expanding into Asian markets. The potential fans in that part of the world would likely already be predisposed to consuming Western culture (such as the popularity of the Ironman movies there, and virtually everywhere for that matter). They would probably want Faerun instead.

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I do not think so, many chinese people are very proud of chinese culture and many chinese people consider their culture superior to western culture. I believe, there is a need for a good oriental setting if one wants to have success on the chinese market.

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Originally posted by Gustaveren


I do not think so, many chinese people are very proud of chinese culture and many chinese people consider their culture superior to western culture. I believe, there is a need for a good oriental setting if one wants to have success on the chinese market

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Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie

In that case, let's have designers/writers with actual experience reading, writing, studying, etc., in Asian cultures. They don't themselves have to be of Asian extraction, necessarily, but the more knowledge and esteem they have for the traditions, stories, and culture, the better.

For instance, I'm an anime and manga fan, sure, but I don't kid myself into thinking that alone makes me qualified to write a Forgotten Realms manga (which should TOTALLY happen). If I were tasked with such a project (again, should TOTALLY happen), you'd better believe I'd do several metric tons of research. Maybe actually visit Japan, tower over some people*, etc.

(*This is only in reference to how tall I am. At 6'7" I tower over most Americans, too. )

Cheers

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