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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
 Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 20:42:07
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I've been wondering about something lately. It seems that every monster, adventurer, and noble has some sort of magic up his, her, or its sleeve. If making magical items cots so much time and resources, and magical training is long, difficult, and relatively rare, how can this be? Where is all of the magic coming from?
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But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 20:56:43
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I would say from Deities, Archmages to Lowly apprentices is where the magic items are coming from. Your question should be: Where is all the magic going? But truthfully it's hard to say where an economy would come from and go to. Although I agree to some extent that magic may be a bit overly high as of late. But then many items merely detonate in magical fire( BAD if being currently carried). Some waste away after the charges are gone, and some are lost. When the time line is lined up to the amount of magical trinkets all over, the question is raised. If we found this many things... and there should be way more... where is the rest of it?
Plus there are those like me ( and I would guess our resident Dragon, Bookwyrm) that simply horde and collect magical items to simply say, that the collection is filling out. Sword: +1 check, +2 Check, +3 Check, Pay Check... (sorry couldn't help it ) |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jan 2004 : 23:49:55
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I believe, my good Sourcemaster, that the answer to your question is: "Welcome to Faerun".
Moreso than almost any other defined world , Faerun has magic coming out of its ears. Unlike say, Greyhawk, where your average peasant might be unaware of magic altogether, Faerunians have come to accept it as a normal part of life.......so it should not be surprising that everyone and their dog has a ring or rod or staff of whatever....
Though it can be a bit much, from time to time.... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 03:05:38
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| I don't mind that everyone has magic-I think it makes the world extremely interesting-but I have to winder where all all of it comes from. Not all wizards go adventuring, or become powerful, and those that do-and survive, of course- don't seem to spend much time crafting magical items. It isn't that I dislike all the magic, I just want to know who is making all of it. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 04:51:11
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| Nicely put Cardinal. If Sourcemaster had posed a question like where the source of all magic originates from, including the magic deities use, then you'd be a bit hard pressed to answer that one. However, if you reply saying that access through Mystra the goddess of magic and gaining access to the magic weave on faerun, that is not a sufficient answer. Think your ready for a theoretical debate Cardinal? *pats Cardinal on the head and messes up his hair* |
“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!”
"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 05:44:19
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Frankly, though many, if not most, nobles and adventurers and plenty of monsters have magic up their communal sleeves, it is important to remember by and large they do not make up a overwhelmingly large group of the Faerunian population. I think its important to remember that probably 8/10 Faerunians are farmers or something like that, and while aware magic exists do not find it remotely accessible to them under normal circumstances.
Now, even if they magic owning group is small comparatively, it is still a large bit of magic floating around, so where does it comes from? Well, we must first remember Myth Drannor and Netheril, two civilizations now dead, who literally wallowed in their magic, like a pig in mud (pardon the rather barbaric analogy, though I did exclude the customary explative). Given they are both fallen and both left behind a lot of magic, which tends to have long shelf lives, it is not difficult to imahgine many monsters and adventurers could find even minor magic without too much effort. Add into that nations like Halruaa and Thay who have lots and lots of wizards, it is not hard to imagine new magic being on the market for the right price. And of course anything that is for sale can be bought by nobles, who generally base thei power on monetary wealth in Faerun.
Also, to be clear alot of magic is pretty benign and minor comparatively, and with so many bloody archmages wnadering around I bet they could produce dozens of minor trinkets a day without breaking a sweat.
Not that I mind the other archmages since the more chickens in the hen house the less likely a particular chicken is to end up dinner, if you catch my meaning. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmmpie"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Trafaldi
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 13:31:15
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| think the past, Many items were made over time and they are still being made. |
Some believe there is something more after death, if you really want to find out... go kill yourself and stop pestering me. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 14:11:27
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*Fixes hair*
Alas Lina I would never go into sucha debate. For one can never win for either side. I am madman, and would cling to even the slightest cracks... even the ones that are not there. I do not research my answers only 'feel' them. Plus I did answer where the magic comes from. In my last line
When the time line is lined up to the amount of magical trinkets all over, the question is raised. If we found this many things... and there should be way more... where is the rest of it?
This means exactly what trafaldi had just said... perhaps in a more clear way than how I had put it. If you take the Time Line of Faerun. Then stack the Amount of Magical trinkets in the entire of Faerun. The amount of magic that should be equal to the amount of time ( and being generous to the time frames of Netheril, and other magic kingdoms) It is no wonder why there are even the amount of nobles that there are with magical trinkets. The power of the present is the Garbage of the Past. Simple ..
Also unless the Item is an artifact then it's creator is usually lost to history so it is impossible to say who created what. Thus, everything from Deities, Archmages to lowly Apprentices are responsible for the creation of magical Items, scrolls and potions. And how many came before, and left vaults of such junk left over? Hmmm? Ha! Insanity wins once again 
.....errr what was it that you were saying again?... |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
Edited by - The Cardinal on 26 Jan 2004 14:12:31 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jan 2004 : 17:20:35
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Hmm, yes, this dragon rather likes the supernatural 'hum' of magic in his lair . . . of course, I don't need as much to do that, since my extradimensional island home already radiates enough of that . . .
You have to remember that there are a lot of people in history who make these items for sale. I've seen NPC descriptions of spellcaster peddlers, making their living with potions and the like. Now, I'd say that scrolls and wands fetch the least price per effort, since they can only be used through spell completion and trigger, respectively. Rings, potions, weapons, and miscellanious items would fetch more of a price. This would be less obvious in the time of Netheril, of course, since like Halruaa or Thay today there were a higher percentage of wizards, but even then there'd be the magical craftsmen, churning out items to sell.
As for finding them out in the wilds, well, since a lot of people who buy them are adventurers, trusting to their new purchases to keep them safe, I'd say a lot of people get . . . cocky. That would be how most of it all ends up in the hands of orcs and goblins and gnolls, etc. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2004 : 00:34:28
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| Sourcemaster2, not all magic items come from wizards or enchanting. For example, many magical weapons are created by dwarven forgers. One of the most famous magical weapon, Aegis-Fang, is created by Bruenor Battlehammer, a dwarve who can't even cast a cantrip. Also, remember that sometimes there are formulas or spells created to assist in creating magical items. People like the Red Wizards of Thay are skilled in creating magical items, which is why they can sell them at lower prices because they probably memorized and done the same procedures hundreds of times. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2004 : 01:57:48
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i agree very much with what Edain Shadowstar and DDH_101 had 2 say, very well explained scribes.
my expalnation, what is left of it after the rest of the scribes have pretty much explained it all - where does magic come from? generally magic items and magical people/creatures. how do they get their magic? from The Weave. where does the magic of The Weave come from? Mystra controls and powers the weave, where does Mystra get her power? from Lord Ao. where does he get his overpowering control and power? well, now it begins 2 get deep, depending on what u believe, u could say the higher Elder Gods, or this is where it really gets fuzzy n say no1 really knows. if u say the Elder Gods, then that is the pretty much the last step, no1 knows 4 sure where/how the elder gods came 2 be, they were who created the Realms n everything evolved from that, if u believe in that sort of thing that is... |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2004 : 21:41:13
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| Alas, now this conversation on "Too much magic?" is becoming "Too Deep" and "Too off-topic" |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2004 : 22:21:16
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| its still on the topic of magic, Shadowlord. and some1 did ask the ? of where magic comes from. i was just answering it |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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RogueAssassin
Learned Scribe
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jan 2004 : 22:51:08
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I've been wondering about something lately. It seems that every monster, adventurer, and noble has some sort of magic up his, her, or its sleeve. If making magical items cots so much time and resources, and magical training is long, difficult, and relatively rare, how can this be? Where is all of the magic coming from?
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Where is it not coming from?
-Rogue |
"Spirit. Its a Heros strength, a mothers resiliance, and the poor mans armor. It cannot be broken and it cannot be taken away. This i must belive"---Drizzt Do'Urden |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 02:40:33
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| I just remembered another "answer" to sourcemaster2's question. If you have read The Temptations of Elminster, you would have known that Mystra gave Elminster many magical trinkets for him to place around the Realms in tombs or dungeons. This is to spread magic everywhere and allow people to experiment with them. Elminster would place like a spellbook with several low level spells or a magic missle wand with 5-6 charges in places for adventurers to find. This is one reason why there's so much magic in Faerun. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 03:01:16
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| is the Temtations of Elmisnter a novel? im assuming it is... |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Sourcemaster2
Senior Scribe
USA
361 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 03:56:33
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| I humble myself before you, sages all. I didn't consider all the ancient magic lying around. But why haven't greedy mages gathered up most of the items that have been around for centuries? It seems easier-not to mention less expensive-than crafting your own. |
But what have all the passing years/Done, but breed new angers, fears?/Show me now an equal worth/To innocence I earned at birth. |
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Signal-9
Acolyte
Canada
37 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 04:48:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
I believe, my good Sourcemaster, that the answer to your question is: "Welcome to Faerun".
Moreso than almost any other defined world , Faerun has magic coming out of its ears. Unlike say, Greyhawk, where your average peasant might be unaware of magic altogether, Faerunians have come to accept it as a normal part of life.......so it should not be surprising that everyone and their dog has a ring or rod or staff of whatever....
Though it can be a bit much, from time to time....
I noticed very much. Although I played the games and such... I noticed the books have alot of magic in them. I come from the LOTR and the Dragonlance novels, which do not have that much magic. But its a refreshing change from the untapped worlds I used to read |
"Dont make him come near me, Tanis !. I assure you. I am capable of this, truly. What i have sought all my life is within my grasp. I will let nothing stop me. Look at Caramon's face, Tanis ! He Knows ! I kiled him once. I can do it again..."
- Raistlin (Dragons of Spring Dawning)
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 20:03:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Sourcemaster2
I humble myself before you, sages all. I didn't consider all the ancient magic lying around. But why haven't greedy mages gathered up most of the items that have been around for centuries? It seems easier-not to mention less expensive-than crafting your own.
they have tried. some succeded but most lay dead in where they traveled 2 find such magical items. these items r not simply lying on the ground inside a cave, but most r lost under the ground, in dungeons where powerful creatures keep watch, and in tombs where the undead guards of the deceast protect their masters and their belongings even in the afterlife. so as u c, it is not that simple, of course many of these items have been recovered, a plain weakly enchanted sword may be older then it seems with the magic properties that has been bestowed upon it. but many more still await 2 be found...along with other secrets. |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 03:26:01
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| Also, you will find most 'greedy mages' are disenclined to risk their own lives, thus if they wanted to acquire the long-lost maigc of old they would have to send mercenaries to get it. Of course they will likely prove inept and end up corpses for other, truely skilled adventurers to loot. Also, special note goes to the treasures of the Elves and that of Netheril. Firstly, elves are somewhat protective of their treasures, going to truely impressive lengths to protect their treasure from looters and to get it back if stolen. I think this is generally downplayed, but generally elves are portrayed as disliking the idea of others taking and using their items. That is not to say elves will not make lavish gifts of said items to thier friends and allies, they just think of many adventurers as akin to looters and tomb-robbers (and some are). As for Netheril, much of their treasure is either buried way beneath the Anarouch, or in the hands of greedy liches and shades, and thus a bit difficult for just anyone to get their hands on, but not impossible. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmmpie"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 03:59:53
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| Also, in Temptations of Elminster, he was only hiding low-level magic items. Hardly the type of item that, oh say, Manshoon (formerly) of the Zhentarim, would slave over...... |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 04:22:51
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| I don't know, the Zhents can be pretty dumb at times. |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmmpie"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
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Belfar
Seeker
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 04:25:29
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| I personally am not much of a fan of magic items. My favorite parts of my campaigns is when there is little or no magic and it completely depends on the PCs skills and thinking power to get through an encounter. I think there are way too many magic items available to PCs in the campaigns I have played recently. You could pretty much get anything you wanted if you could afford it and it could be possibly aquired in a city. But then again it is Faerun. Maybe I just prefer more swords than sorcery. |
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Edain Shadowstar
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 04:52:51
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Ever hear of Greyhawk?
Sorry Alaundo...I'll get back to my filing...
*runs off towards his office humming* |
Edain Shadowstar
Archwizard of Rel Astra and Waterdeep
"Mmmpie"
- Gaius Solarian, Captain General |
Edited by - Edain Shadowstar on 29 Jan 2004 04:53:27 |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 05:09:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Edain Shadowstar
I don't know, the Zhents can be pretty dumb at times.
AT TIMES?!?!? Try all the time |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 08:25:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Belfar
I personally am not much of a fan of magic items. My favorite parts of my campaigns is when there is little or no magic and it completely depends on the PCs skills and thinking power to get through an encounter. I think there are way too many magic items available to PCs in the campaigns I have played recently. You could pretty much get anything you wanted if you could afford it and it could be possibly aquired in a city. But then again it is Faerun. Maybe I just prefer more swords than sorcery.
I agree totally, Belfar! My campaign is much the same and whilst i LOVE the Realms I do take it to a lower-magic level.... my players get all over excited then when they find the most mundane +1 magical weapon or whatever......which is the way it should be!  |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 09:06:16
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Most of my own FR campaigns are run on a low-magic basis. I prefer it this way, since most of the other settings I game in are of a similar power level...DL for instance.
The only time, higher magics, come into play are when the planes become a regular component in an FR game. But then, it is strictly regulated, and magic levels are kept in accordance with PC levels.
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Belfar
Seeker
USA
86 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 14:57:45
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| My DM is pretty bad about giving out magic items. Our thief acquired armlets of fast healing/1 at about 5th level. Mistake me if I'm wrong but wouldn't that go for 50,000+ gold on the market? It takes away from the excitement when you find a magic weapon or item every other gaming session. I would try Greyhawk out but I've devoted way too much time to learning about Faerun and the Forgotten Realms to switch over to another campaign setting because of a minor problem. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 22:06:42
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| Well, magic should never be like candy. I'm all in favor of common low-level magics for the Realms, but not higher ones. Regenerating items for fifth-level characters sounds overbalanced. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Dracandos the Spellsage
Senior Scribe
466 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jan 2004 : 22:49:58
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| while i agree magic is never something 2 be treated with any disrespect, i love magic, thats y im a spellsage. i love everything about magic, its what makes the FR so great. i love magical lore n everything like that. but spellsages treat magic very respecfully n fron upon any misuse of it |
Death strips away the masks men don to hide their true nature - The Slayer's Guide to Undead
The Lord of Murder shall perish, but in his doom he shall spawn a score of mortal progeny. Chaos shall be sown from their passage - So Sayeth the Wise Alaundo
Whenever magic one doth weave, 'tis never ever wise to deceive - Elminster
Strength and power come from knowing and controlling what others do not, but never reveal all that you know - Vecna
I have been known to cast a blue mage spell now and again - Dracandos the Spellsage |
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Too much magic?
