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Valdar Oakensong
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
159 Posts |
 Posted - 29 Feb 2004 : 17:03:39
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Hello all, this question came to me whilst playing NeverWinter Nights yesterday. Why is there no use or mention of the Resurrection and Raise Dead spells in any of the novels that i have read. OK I admit that an epic battle spanning 4 chapters would be ruined if the hero triumphantly killed the head nasty after nearly dying himself only for a priest to bring said nasty back to life. Could be a good plot twist in there somewhere... It just seems a bit strange that the spells are completely overlooked.
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Guns don't kill people, magic missiles do. |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2004 : 17:59:26
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You touched on the reasons yourself, Valdar. Since we're attached to our gaming characters and would rather not lose them very often, resurrection is a great idea for games. But fiction is a different genre, and needs different qualities to make it entertaining.
In a novel, if the hero and villain can be endlessly resurrected, then it's hard to settle their conflict and have it stay settled. Also, if the hero's buddies can get him resurrected, then how often is he ever in any real danger? And if he's not in any real danger, why should the reader worry about him? Where's the dramatic tension and suspense?
The problem for a fiction writer who wants to maintain fidelity to established FR lore (to his own satisfaction, anyway) is to reconcile his failure to invoke resurrection with the fact that this magic does, in fact, exist. The way I do that is to assume that while resurrection is possible, it is also surrounded with taboo, displeasing to the gods under all but the most extraordinary circumstances.
I don't think that's an unreasonable assumption, given the fact that the FR is a place where most people obviously do die once and stay dead. It would be a very different world if that were not the case. Since the restoration of youth is possible also, almost everyone would live forever. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2004 : 18:00:41
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I'm not an author, but...
I believe you've nailed it right on the head. Also remember that many of the heroes you read about may not have access to these mighty spells. Luminaries like Elminster and Khelben, yes, some of the heroes of the Sembia series, no. It generally ruins such heroic sacrifices.
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Valdar Oakensong
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
159 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2004 : 21:38:02
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Thanks for the sign this link, I think that it is terrible news. but enough of this before Alaundo starts shouting and waving that staff of his around!!
quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
I'm not an author, but...
I believe you've nailed it right on the head. Also remember that many of the heroes you read about may not have access to these mighty spells. Luminaries like Elminster and Khelben, yes, some of the heroes of the Sembia series, no. It generally ruins such heroic sacrifices.
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Guns don't kill people, magic missiles do. |
Edited by - Valdar Oakensong on 29 Feb 2004 21:38:42 |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 29 Feb 2004 : 21:54:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Valdar Oakensong
Hello all, this question came to me whilst playing NeverWinter Nights yesterday. Why is there no use or mention of the Resurrection and Raise Dead spells in any of the novels that i have read. OK I admit that an epic battle spanning 4 chapters would be ruined if the hero triumphantly killed the head nasty after nearly dying himself only for a priest to bring said nasty back to life. Could be a good plot twist in there somewhere... It just seems a bit strange that the spells are completely overlooked.
Also, many people cannot afford to have a priest cast resurrection. Things can be very costly in the Realms, you see. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
Edited by - Shadowlord on 29 Feb 2004 21:55:16 |
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Ezindir the dark
Senior Scribe
Norway
603 Posts |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2004 : 06:34:41
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Cold pieces? Must be some strange currency out beyond the Spine of the World. Or maybe in Chult, where ice would be valuable. 
Raising magics are the equivalent of a saved game. You have to pay a hefty price (the gold, or maybe a quest, plus the character looses a level), but you get that guy you worked on so hard back.
I'm not really in favor of it from a story perspective, for the reasons already eloquently given here. If you're doing a hack'n'slash, muchkins-welcome game, then there's no problem. Otherwise, it doesn't fit with the world where so few people get to use these spells.
Personally, I'd say that if you have to do that, the quest is the best way to justify it -- balance out the cosmic forces by doing a great deed to deserve the great reward. That sort of thing. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2004 : 07:18:13
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Ahh, bu what if you were raised by an evil cleric? Then you might have do something underhanded, like an assassination attempt. |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2004 : 07:33:47
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| But would you consider your life worth another's? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Cardinal
Senior Scribe
Canada
647 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2004 : 08:05:20
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| Of course! Our life is paramount to our existence... Unless there are unforseen events that change such a perspective. As Zur the Enchanter once said: "Eternal life is worth any sacrifice" |
It has to be Certain, the Gods Hate Me. For whatever irrevokable Fate, I have been made the walking Joke. Either that, or Beshaba is overlyfond Of Me.
-Unknown |
Edited by - The Cardinal on 01 Mar 2004 08:13:02 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2004 : 16:36:53
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| Eternal life isn't the issue; it's a question of if an evil act is worth cheating death just once, with no guarantee that it'll ever happen again. But what good is eternal life if you've nothing else to live for? |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2004 : 18:18:03
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Richard makes a good point about novel/game continuity; namely, fiction writers need to acknowledge the existence of resurrection spells, while providing a reason why they shouldn't be used. (In fact, one of the challenges of writing in a magic-rich setting is finding ways to AVOID easy conflict resolution through powerful spells and people.)
Since many of my stories feature elves, I advanced the theory that disturbing the afterlife is an elven taboo. That was consistent with the existing lore of elven culture, and explained why many of my characters will not consider raising their fallen companions.
In Liriel's story, the only diety to whom she could pray was Lolth, so she had a very good reason not to seek resurrection. She knew that an evil goddess's "gifts" tend to come with a very large price tag.
That said, I've frequently been tempted to include a resurrection in a short story or novel, just to show why this shouldn't be done. People IRL who have near-death experiences often find that their lives are profoundly changed. It doesn't seem likely to me that a Realms character could return from death and pick up without missing a step. Surely there would be lingering effects, unforeseen consequences. It seems to me that all magic has a price -- and we're not just talking about the thousands of gold pieces needed to buy a resurrection spell.
Resurrection shouldn't be a cheap and easy solution in fiction. It should be rare and difficult, and because it's rare and difficult, it might occasionally become a useful characterization tool. For example, the elven afterlife is such a wondrous thing that disturbing it strikes me as an incredibly selfish act. It reminds me of something I saw in a gardening catalogue -- a little memorial stone with the following sentiment: "If tears could form a staircase and grief could forge a chain, I'd build a path to heaven and bring you back again." Not only is this dreadful doggerel, it's also incredibly self-centered. To paraphrase: "I miss you, so I would drag you out of Paradise if I could." Seen in this light, resurrection could be a powerful characterization tool, revealing the character seeking the resurrection spell as a self-absorbed git only concerned with his own wants and needs. Conversely, it could demonstrate that a cause is so important to the survivors that they consider the resurrection of a powerful ally more important than their own personal moral codes, or the deceased's eternal happiness.
But however resurrection might be used in fiction, it should never be as easy as a bi-weekly resurrection of Knuckles the thief and his +11 hackmaster sword.
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Shadowlord
Master of Realmslore
USA
1298 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2004 : 20:20:34
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Well said.
Hmmm, a question just occurred to me. Some elves do not die of battle, and they pass on to Arvandor after a time. Can these elves be resurrected? (pay no attention to elven taboo, I want simple, pragmatic answers.) |
The Chosen of Vhaeraun
"Nature is governed by certain immutable rules. By virtue of claw and fang, the lion will always triumph over the goat.Given time, the pounding of the sea will wear away the stone. And when dark elves mingle with the lighter races, the offspring invariably take after the dark parent. It is all much the same. That which is greater shall prevail. Our numbers increase steadily, both through birth and conquest. The dark elves are the dominant race, so ordained by the gods." Ka'Narlist of the Ilythiiri. |
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Josh Davids
Seeker
57 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2004 : 20:41:41
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This caught my attention as I am actually using the ressurection type story line in the series of books I am doing. It is for two people. The first is a villain, think mansoon mixed with larloch and szass tam and you get a pretty good idea of that character. His name is Loku Duras, a mage of great power and cunning he engineers his own death and curse into the nine hells then makes sure the seed of his resurrection are planted in several cults. Duras makes sure that the rumors of a magic that can control the mage is out there and even invents the spell himself, with a twist. They resurrect the bad guy, he gets what information he needed from his time in the hells, kills those who brought him back in varying ways, experimentation or just out right death spells and proceeds on his two century long plan to bring down a barrier in the world, for his own gain of course don’t want to say too much on that it is one of the main plots of the books.
The second character is one of the heroes, he is a paladin of great faith who was serving in one of the orders when it was corrupted, don’t want to give away too much, needless to say he got betrayed, tossed to some succubus for an evening of torment then dragged before a friend of his who was being tortured and had his throat slit to bleed out in front of her. They both got taken out into the wilds, the woman still in bindings and tossed there his body rotting before her. Long story short she escaped, buried his body and left the place not knowing his soul was so tormented by what happened he could not leave his body or grave so suffered for a century like that till his god decided his faith was pure enough that he passed the test and brought him back, with a hitch. He had to purify that order that killed him, try and bring back his woman friend to the side of good she was now a black guard, and restart the order only to die as soon as his task was complete. He did it all, was ready to die but the god told him another test, got to love tests eh? Anyways he was given limited life, forty more years but again there was a catch if his faith should ever waver he would cease to live, he was given a sword by the god one that was powered by the person’s faith that was wielding it, the more faith they had in the god the stronger the sword was, needless to say that character has the strongest magical sword at the moment. Those are just some ways, I tend to like twisted the resurrection and sometimes even healing into interesting concepts or add a price top everything.
I am very limited even in game play with what characters I will want to bring back, sure I might get attached to them but if it isn’t in their character to come back I won’t have them brought back to life. even had one character that refused magical healing because he thought it made him weak as a fighter relieing on so called flower magic to make sure he lived rather then his skill with his sword, then again that character hated all forms of magic, surprisingly he lived a very long time as a character, to 15th level from first. though there were many close calls, oyi and two times the people with him didn’t tell him about the healing just enough to make sure he didn’t die, if he ever found out they would have been skinned alive for sure.
Also Elaine there was a short story I had forming in my mind that is something like what you brought up. a fighter was brought back from the dead and he despaired about being dragged from paradise and wanted to return, though he was needed to stop a villain. There was also a price for his return because something came back with him, another soul hitched a ride on his resurrection, I know game mechanics don’t allow for this but thought it would be an interesting goof up since this was the priests first time doing this. Needless to say it was an interesting story concept I got to actually write out. but the character seeks death always to try and return to the paradise he left, and no one who brought him back could understand why he wanted to die so badly.
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Ezindir the dark
Senior Scribe
Norway
603 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2004 : 22:35:48
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Well said!
And one other thing, resurectoin was used in 1954 when the Lord of the Rings was published, well kind of anyway. I am of course talking about Gandalf after he had killed teh balrog and he dies, but the Valas sends him back since he has yet to conclude his task.
I know this is not really the same as resurectoin, but it is a fictional charackter raised from death so it is kind of the same.....
And in Baldurs Gate almost all the characters you meet again in BG2 have been raised and the one fellow you meet together with Saravok are also raised, but in a possible book you could say that you had to have the corpse, it had to be a day or so before the person died and when he got raised his skills should have been(dramatiacly) increased. |
Learn about the Ways of Vhaeraun .
- Check out my bio, majore update
- The Wanderers Quest
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Signal-9
Acolyte
Canada
37 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2004 : 22:58:43
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in the sembia series they do, but sometimes the spell does not work. there is limitations to it.
Also for a priest to use a res spell it costs alot of $$
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"Dont make him come near me, Tanis !. I assure you. I am capable of this, truly. What i have sought all my life is within my grasp. I will let nothing stop me. Look at Caramon's face, Tanis ! He Knows ! I kiled him once. I can do it again..."
- Raistlin (Dragons of Spring Dawning)
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ElaineCunningham
Forgotten Realms Author
2396 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2004 : 13:13:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Some elves do not die of battle, and they pass on to Arvandor after a time. Can these elves be resurrected? (pay no attention to elven taboo, I want simple, pragmatic answers.)
I'm not going to venture a simple, pragmatic answer, since I'm not sure what the 3.5 version of this might be and suspect that it may be quite different from second edition. There might be an answer to your question in 3.5 material, but I stopped researching Forgotten Realms elves when I stopped writing about them.
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2004 : 16:36:55
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quote:
Originally posted by ElaineCunningham
Richard makes a good point about novel/game continuity;
I just brought up this point in a question to Ed Greenwood in his thread. However, I was looking at it in the future product stages. For example, the dialogue between a writer of a Waterdeep novel and a game designer of a Waterdeep product that might be set to come out at the same time. Is there any communication at all to ensure something being designed doesn't conflict with events within the novel? |
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Richard Lee Byers
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
1814 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2004 : 16:53:09
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| Sirius, other writers may have different experiences, but when I work in the FR, there often is communication, and it's usually preemptive in nature. My editor tells me something on the order of: "Don't set your book in Locations A, B, or C, and don't use Monsters D, E, or F." Because other writers, either novelists or game designers, are already working with those elements of the FR, and by forbidding them to me, the editor is averting any possibility of conflicts right from the start. WotC's also trying to make sure that certain aspects of the Realms don't come to seem overexposed, stale, and therefore boring. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2004 : 16:58:27
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Thank you Mr. Byers. It's nice to hear that such coordination does take place. Moreover you answered the next question I would have asked: Who helps coordinate this? As you mentioned, the editor, who is probably not only having to communicate with the author but the editor and/or designer of a gaming product as well.
I keep telling people communication skills are paramount in most jobs.
Thank you again. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 02 Mar 2004 : 18:31:43
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quote:
Originally posted by Shadowlord
Well said.
Hmmm, a question just occurred to me. Some elves do not die of battle, and they pass on to Arvandor after a time. Can these elves be resurrected? (pay no attention to elven taboo, I want simple, pragmatic answers.)
Not likely. They'd have to be willing to come back, and that's generally not something those ancient elves would do. |
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Valdar Oakensong
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
159 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2004 : 22:01:13
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Can we assume 2 main points between the novels and the games then.
1 The heroes in the novels are comparitively low level compared to the levels achieved in the games. I mainly mean magic users and Clerics. And...
2 Money is much easier to come by in the games. |
Guns don't kill people, magic missiles do. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 03 Mar 2004 : 23:02:56
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That's a rather safe assumption. It's typical to think of these characters as automatically horrendously 'epic'-leveled (what? Elminster is only CR 39??  ), but really, the actual levels are much lower. Most ordinary NPCs (at least in 3/3.5e) are no higher than third level, at least according to the stats I've read in adventure moduals. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 00:54:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Signal-9
in the sembia series they do, but sometimes the spell does not work. there is limitations to it.
Also for a priest to use a res spell it costs alot of $$
Ain't that the truth! And usually out of their own pocket as well..... In our game, I think my cleric spent the most gold for the material component than the rest of the group, save the ranger who bought some as well.....
But, in a story, it would hinder the storyline as people have already mentioned. Anti-climatic, I'd say to bring back the big, bad, very evil blackguard that the hero just nearly sacrificed his life to kill. Gameplay is totally different as we do get very attached to our characters moreso than most characters from a book.
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Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm |
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Darth KTrava
Learned Scribe
USA
172 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 00:57:42
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
That's a rather safe assumption. It's typical to think of these characters as automatically horrendously 'epic'-leveled (what? Elminster is only CR 39?? ), but really, the actual levels are much lower. Most ordinary NPCs (at least in 3/3.5e) are no higher than third level, at least according to the stats I've read in adventure moduals.
hehehehe
It was commented one time that our epic party (between 32-36th levels) were closing in on the likes of Elminster in level....
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Evil will be dealt with swiftly as it is my duty to remove such evil from my presence.
-Rozhena, Cleric/Divine Champion of Torm |
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Adrian Moonbow
Seeker
Denmark
64 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2004 : 09:54:15
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| It could also be a matter of religion. In my campaign our PCs won't allow res-spell due to strong religious beliefs. |
"I would have wanted not to die.
I would have wanted never to grow up!"
-Quidam
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arilyn742
Seeker
Ireland
54 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2004 : 02:25:15
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Well there is a little bit of necromancy even in the limited number of FR novels I've read. For example, in The Dream Spheres (POSSIBLE SPOILER) Danilo plans to consult the spirit of his dead half sister -he finds her body is beyond use, but still... Later, (DEFINITE SPOILER) the presumed dead Oth Eltorchul returns (but this may not be what I think it is, as I didn't quite follow this). There is also a reference earlier to a possible resurrection of Oth.
In Exile, (SPOILER) Zaknafein is raised as a Zin-Carla (sp?), and while he becomes a soulless killer, in the end (BIG SPOILER) he has a single clear thought as the Zak he was in life. |
Yonde iru, mune no doko ka oku de
Itsumo kokoro odoru yume wo mitai
Kanashimi wa kazoekirenai keredo
Sono mukou de kitto anata ni aeru |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2004 : 03:24:34
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You've spelt 'Zin-Carla' correctly arilyn742. The 'highest gift of Lolth' has always been a particularly favorite spell of mine, although I always felt that it should have been a little higher in terms of spell level, rather than it's then current (2e) 7th level.
I've probably already noticed it (but have now simply forgotten), but is there a 3e conversion of this spell in any of the 3e FR sourcebooks?. I'd check myself, but I'm away from my books at the moment.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2004 : 04:11:45
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| It lost it's spell status, but yes. It's covered as part of the arachne prestige class on page 184 of Faiths and Pantheons. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2004 : 04:16:34
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Ah, thanks Arivia. I knew it would end up being covered either in the Underdark tome, or Faiths and Pantheons.
Is the change any good, compared to what the 2e spell was like...?
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 13 Mar 2004 : 06:02:25
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| I can't be any help there, as I haven't seen the original... |
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A question for the Authors
