| Author |
 Topic  |
|
jinat
Acolyte
35 Posts |
 Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 17:30:38
|
|
What real world ethnicities would correspond to the ones listed in the Players Guide to Faerun and Races of Faerun.
|
|
|
RogueAssassin
Learned Scribe
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 19:08:50
|
The People of Faerun come in a variety of shapes and colors, though ive never heard of them being put into ethnic groups, other than by their culture. There are ethnic groups for sure though i dont think that the people of faerun worry about them so much
-The Rogue |
"Spirit. Its a Heros strength, a mothers resiliance, and the poor mans armor. It cannot be broken and it cannot be taken away. This i must belive"---Drizzt Do'Urden |
 |
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 19:35:11
|
quote:
Originally posted by RogueAssassin
The People of Faerun come in a variety of shapes and colors, though ive never heard of them being put into ethnic groups, other than by their culture.
-The Rogue
I've seen a thread, on the WOTC board I believe, that tried to do a real world correspondence to Faerun' regions/ethnicities. Unfortunately jinat, it wasn't something I saved. Sorry. |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 19:48:15
|
| Some of the peoples added to the Realms by people other than Ed are Earth analogues: Bedine/Bedouin, Ffolk/Celt, Maztican/Mesoamerican, Shou/Chinese, Tuigan/Mongol, Ulutiun/Inuit. Otherwise the human peoples of the Realms don't correspond to peoples of Earth, and it would demean all the work put into developing them to try imposing our-world norms. |
Edited by - Faraer on 26 Jun 2004 19:48:44 |
|
|
|
Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 20:29:37
|
| Though it must be admitted that there are many similarities between some of the others - especially between Calishite and Arabian culture and Mulhorandi and Ancient Egyptian. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
Edited by - Sarelle on 26 Jun 2004 20:30:19 |
|
|
|
Talwyn
Learned Scribe
Australia
222 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 23:46:29
|
As far as I see it, most of the realms human civilisations/peoples are loosely based on real cultures from earth. It's just the developers of the realms have gone in different directions with the cultures they have "mirrored".
|
Over the centuries, mankind has tried many ways of combating the forces of evil...prayer, fasting, good works and so on.
Up until Doom, no one seemed to have thought about the double-barrel shotgun.
EAT LEADEN DEATH DEMON!
Terry Pratchett
|
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 26 Jun 2004 : 23:54:51
|
| They really aren't; Ed has made it clear numerous times that he doesn't worldbuild that way. In the core, Greenwoodian Realms, sure, the Vilhon Reach draws somewhat on the flavour of the Mediterranean, eastern Europe, and the Near East; elements of Calishite culture are drawn from the historical and fictional Middle East. But those are literary influences, not mirrors or equivalencies; if Realms culture A takes some element from Earth culture X, there's no guarantee or even necessarily likelihood that A will have any other given element of X. |
|
|
|
jinat
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 12:22:44
|
Yes Ed has noted in numerous occasions that that is not how he modeled the realms.
but there is still a certain degree of comparison that is viable. This was even more so in the 1st edition box when there were many suggestions that many of the people and religions of the realms are from earth. As mentioned the Vilhon Reach draws somewhat on the flavour of the Mediterranean, eastern Europe, and the Near East; elements of Calishite culture are drawn from the historical and fictional Middle East.
Also Ed clearly states in the original box set in regards to the realms: The Forgotten Realms are a world very similar to the Earth of the 13th and 14th centuries.
And then in regards to its people : The people of these realms (including man, dwarf, elf, gnome, and halfling) are similar in mindset and advancement to the men of the 13th century.
Then there are the Old Empires, the people of which were from another world, who’s gods are clearly Egyptian. There are other indications that many earth cultures have been transplanted, and that many of the interloper gods are clearly stated to be from earth. These connections between the realms and earth were initially one of the basic themes of; ‘realms’ that were once connected to earth but now ‘forgotten’
Thou yes in later editions that concept has been swept away under the carpet. It is based on this that I feel it is not demeaning to compare. Just for the sake having some reference point for costumes and accents if nothing else I feel it’s a good idea. So what do guys feel are good matches. Such comparisons based on nations and regions have been made in various boards before – but not with ethnicity in mind.
|
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 14:57:36
|
| That was a comparison to medieval Earth's level of urban civilization and technology, basically telling us that like many such settings Faerûn is quasi-medieval -- not implying any geographical or detailed cultural resemblance. The reverse of sweeping under the carpet happened as writers took some of the submerged and mixed-up influences and made them overt, such as with the Old Empires which were not originally as close to ancient Egypt/Sumer/Greece as Scott Bennie made them (Ed's Mulhorand didn't/doesn't have that Egyptian pantheon -- this wasn't originally part of the Toril-Earth gates concept). |
Edited by - Faraer on 27 Jun 2004 15:10:01 |
|
|
|
jinat
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 27 Jun 2004 : 15:57:48
|
Faraer im just stateing how i see things according to how i interprete the original box set, which does state Tyr coming from the norse pantheon and such things, and using that as a basis to compare earth cultures for aesthetic reasons in gaming. I might be reading to much into it or i might not. But there are hints and i just want to know what others think would be good matches. I know that FR cultures are not 100 % carbon copies of ours but they align more with ours then lets say the ones found in in Dragonlance or Draksun. Thats all friend  |
|
|
|
Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2004 : 15:52:40
|
Just like when this topic was started over by the Coast, i think people are getting cought up over semantics again.
How about we replace "correspond" and paralells" with "is similiar to" or "could be compared to".
It need not be identical, it ned not be a mirror, but there are similarities. Humans are humans, after all, and it is convenient for DMs wit ha flair for accents to be able to easily add in an accent here, or there, or maybe even whip up a batch of some sort of ethnic food or dig up a few period pieces of artwork from a region at least somewhat similiar to one in the realms.
Let us not reinvent the wheel needlessly, here. Just as it is superfluous to have an "elvish" language for eah and every setting(except for setting specific words and new slang) it is operhaps needlessly trivial to not benefit from the breadth and depth of our own real world cultures a bit when representing our realms. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2004 : 16:58:31
|
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Just like when this topic was started over by the Coast, i think people are getting cought up over semantics again.
Oh yeah, I remember that one... As so many things there do, that thread went bad, quick.  |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2004 : 17:21:50
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
Oh yeah, I remember that one... As so many things there do, that thread went bad, quick.
Is that one of the threads that got you a warning? 
I vaguely recall the topic coming up on the WOTC board. I quickly lost interest for a variety of reasons. However, the bits I recall are
Cormyr = France (Shudder)
Waterdeep = London (Which made me long to see London again. Next time I need to walk up to a person on the street and say, "Take me to your ruler. I demand to see Piergeiron!" |
|
|
|
jinat
Acolyte
35 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2004 : 19:24:06
|
ok fine forget it.
I dont think there was anything offensive about my posts nor do i think that asking for /paralells/similarities/comparisons whatever word ud like to use is complicated or demeaning to the realms.
but you are entitled to your opinions and principles - so ill just take this to another thread.
Thankyou for your time |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36779 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2004 : 19:53:52
|
quote:
Originally posted by jinat
ok fine forget it.
I dont think there was anything offensive about my posts nor do i think that asking for /paralells/similarities/comparisons whatever word ud like to use is complicated or demeaning to the realms.
but you are entitled to your opinions and principles - so ill just take this to another thread.
Thankyou for your time
Oh no, don't get us wrong. You neither did nor said anything offensive. It's just that some of us saw a similar discussion that got very heated and very ugly over on the WotC forums. People were making arguments based on artwork, text descriptions, real-world cultures, etc...
I think it safest to say that while later regions of the Realms (in other words, the stuff Ed didn't do) are certainly influenced by real-world cultures, it's only a rough mixture at best. To use the Kara-Tur region as an example, it's pretty safe to say that Shou Lung was based loosely on China, and Kozakura was based loosely on Japan. But in both cases, it's only a loose itineration of the original. It may have some similiarities, but there are some serious differences, as well.
Me, I don't try to make real-world comparisons too much, because it is a fantasy world. A fantasy culture is going to have some influences that a real-world culture never had, like magic, monsters, gods, other intelligent races, etc.
It's all about flavor. Look at it this way: Japan and Kozakura, on the surface, have a lot of similarities. But so do an old Volkwagen Beetle and a Porsche 911 (in fact, from what I've read, the original Porsches were made from Volkswagen parts). Under the hood, they're seriously different.
The real-world similarities and flavors were just the starting point. The source material may have been similar, but where it went may be really different.
So I say stick with the flavor, but don't worry about trying to draw real-world parallels. We can not parallel a fantasy world, so there's little reason to try. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 28 Jun 2004 19:58:39 |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2004 : 07:52:14
|
Most people who've been here for more that a few months probably think of me as a champion of realism in fiction, both mine and those of other people.
Guess what? It only goes so far. There comes a point where realism gets in the way. There comes a point where you have to fudge something to give people a connection to the setting. I consider that to be the reason for such things as the Calimshan/Arabia connection. It doesn't work completely, but it's a sort of measuring stick.
Now, some might point out that this sounds like hypocrasy. After all, I railed against something like Maztica. However, that's a wholesale lift. And really, I was arguing against the story it was brought forth in -- Cortez in the Realms.
For ethnicity, there are some things that are pretty inevitable. Unlike D&D race (which is actually species), ethnicity ("race" in the Real World) is an indication of climate. In some cases things like diet as well -- I'm an archetypical Paleskin, the male WASP that was the "elite" American for so long (thank goodness I didn't grow up with that). My ancestors' diet was poor, and lacking in certain vitamins; especially vitamin D. That's why I can sit out in the sun and absorb it though my skin.
So, because of that -- though it's really just a guess -- I would assume the barbarians of Icewind Dale would be like an Anglo-Saxon body type. The Ffolk are farther south, and have land that's far more naturally ariable, so I'd say they would look less like Anglo-Celts than those of, say, Spain, or southern France.
Calimshites would be a darker-skined race, because (again, as I understand it -- I don't know as much biology as it sometimes sounds) their ancestors wouldn't have wanted as much sun as those of the Frozen North would have. Whether that means they'll have facial features similar to modern Arabs, I don't know. Same goes for the thin nose and chin my ancestors had showing up among the inhabitants of Icewind Dale.
Most comparisons die out on close inspection. They have to, or it would get boring. Some stories can support that -- but not many. Unless it's an important part of the story, it just gets distracting after a while. Once things get too familiar, it's defeating the purpose of fantasy. So I don't think Waterdeep can be compared to London, other than that both are large cities. London was never a slouch, but it wasn't ever the trading town Waterdeep is. The government and culture are all wrong as well. Cormyr could be compared to France, but I'd prefer not to. It doesn't actually work. If anything, it's closer to a fudal England -- Richard III, perhaps, but he and Azoun IV are incompatible. (Except that both were kings, and both fought wars, and both died. But that fits a lot of people in history.)
Bottom line, if you're complaining that some similarity to Real World history is too much, then you're a worse nitpicker than I am. And that's saying something. In fact, I'd have to wonder why you're accepting the idea of "humans on another planet" in that case. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 00:54:09
|
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
[quote]
Waterdeep = London (Which made me long to see London again. Next time I need to walk up to a person on the street and say, "Take me to your ruler. I demand to see Piergeiron!"
 LMAO! 
Whoever posted that... needs to take a trip to Britain. I think London was as much Waterdeep - even back in Medieval times - as Sirius loves Realms Prestige Classes. A more appropriate comparison, speaking first-hand:
Skullport = London
or possibly
Barrens of Doom and Despair = London |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 03:15:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
Skullport = London
or possibly
Barrens of Doom and Despair = London
Not even going to touch that one. Nope....knew too many people from the UK....they can be intimidating to us colonials. |
|
|
|
Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 18:00:17
|
*Points to location*
I'm actually holed up within the Barrens myself, so I'm allowed a bit of criticism. |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
|
|
|
Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2004 : 22:34:44
|
Ok, Sarelle, this is completely off topic and has little to do with anything, but...
Have you ever played dnd in a castle or in stonehenge? Somehow I jsut think that would be quite awesome... |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 07:15:43
|
| Stonehenge? How could he? Last I heard, Stonehenge was closed off to all public access. I recall some of the druids were upset about that. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 07:53:23
|
Hmm, just recently I thought I saw a bunch of druids and revelers in and around stonehenge for the solstice. It might have been stock footage they were using though.
Anyhow, we weren't supposed to do a lot of thingss, in a lot of places, when I was younger. We still did them anyway. And it is just a 15 foot cyclone fence with a single strand at the top, in the last video I saw, I have climbed worse to get a drink of water. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
|
|
|
Sarelle
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
508 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 18:46:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Ok, Sarelle, this is completely off topic and has little to do with anything, but...
Have you ever played dnd in a castle or in stonehenge? Somehow I jsut think that would be quite awesome...
 Oh for the American view of Britons - we could well live in quaint gum-drop houses, armed with rapiers and whistling cockney tavern tunes with incredibly high-class accents. (No offence to Americans intended here.)
Bookwyrm is correct - Stonehenge is closed off to the public, both sadly and for the best. As for castles - I can't imagine a group setting up a gaming table being welcomed by the National Trust. From what I know of them they would set four-leaf-clover hell hounds on us, and curse our descendants. Seriously - castle ruins have to respected, not used to help crank up a D&D atmosphere.
Even if there weren't these complications the thought would just never have occurred to me - and probably more British gamers - save, possibly, for those who play a party of Eldath-worshippers, spend too much time sneaking into Stonehenge as is, and tend to smoke too much of a certain substance (i.e. my dad minus the D&D aspect!) |
Chair of the The Rightful Return of Monster Deities to FR Society (RRMDFRS)
My character, drawn by Liodain: Sarelle / Sarelle (smaller) |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 18:50:10
|
quote:
Originally posted by Sarelle
Oh for the American view of Britons - we could well live in quaint gum-drop houses, armed with rapiers and whistling cockney tavern tunes with incredibly high-class accents. (No offence to Americans intended here.)
Wait a minute! You don't?!! Thanks for ruining my nice mental image.
I'm gone. I'm going to put in the DVD to My Fair Lady and return to my nice delusional state free of Sarelle's influence.
SiriusBlack (Proud Colonial for over three decades...just in case Britain ever makes a comeback over here again, I like to stay on their good side). |
|
|
|
Gerath Hoan
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
152 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 19:04:00
|
Someday i wish there could be a sucessful movie or tv drama that completely bursts the English or British stereotype in America...
For example: I love Family Guy, but the episode with that English twerp makes my skin crawl. I know its mostly tongue in cheek, but its not even a good pastiche.
Anyway, as for unusual gaming locations, i live not far from the Avebury stone circle in Wiltshire (part of the west country of England), and we've had outdoor gaming sessions there before now. If you get chance do a search about Avebury on the net, not as famous as Stonehenge but in terms of sheer area and volume of historical sights nearby it beats it hands down. Plus you can walk amongst the stones and actually touch them... or even sit in the one known ominously as "The Devil's Chair"  |
Knight of the Order of the Keen Eye - Granted by Ed Greenwood, 30th January 2005 |
|
|
|
SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 19:09:21
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gerath Hoan
Someday i wish there could be a sucessful movie or tv drama that completely bursts the English or British stereotype in America...
What? Keen Eddie didn't do that? People, I can only take so many shocks in one day.
By the way for all the UK scribes, lovely country. The two ladies in my life are deeply jealous that I've been and they haven't.
Of course, they also are jealous that I've been to Heidelberg castle in Germany. Unfortunately, I didn't game there although I really should have thought of it as the group I was with at the time would have gone for something like that. |
|
|
|
Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 19:46:52
|
You mean there aren't troupes of dancing, singing chimney sweeps running around over there? The dream is dead then, I guess...
I had thought that ther were still some castles not so heavily regulated? More than a few I have read stil rent out rooms, but those are likely not in britain.
No, seriously, it wasn't so much a stereotype of britons, more of gamers in general. I have personally spent hours rummaging around ruins several hundred years old, and doing all manner of questionable things to get a feel for a period, myself.
Maybe it is a matter of perspective, but I for one would be in castles twelve hours a day if they were around, just going through them stone by stone for the atmosphere.
But, I guess, that would get old pretty quick. I know I for one got over the whole romance of the cowboy/pioneer by the time I was twelve, so I reckon that europeans would likewise be "over" the whole medievil thing by then as well.
Oh, and by the way, I ain't no colonial, I'm a native!  So I know all about woefully misinformed steretypes, and ludicrous notions. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
Edited by - Capn Charlie on 01 Jul 2004 19:58:55 |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jul 2004 : 22:48:26
|
There's more public access to Stonehenge than there was a few decades ago, for instance at the recent summer solstice. (The druids, i.e. the people who call themselves druids, had special-occasion access for some years before that.)
Been meaning to visit Avebury for months. Must get act together and do it. |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2004 : 06:09:44
|
quote:
Originally posted by Gerath Hoan
Someday i wish there could be a sucessful movie or tv drama that completely bursts the English or British stereotype in America...
I was listening to an American professor of history the other day. He'd once been the chair of the history department at Oxford, and he had some insight into the differences between American and British attitudes.
He said that the worst thing you can be in Britan is a bore, while the worst thing in America is to be a fake. (One wonders why plastic surgery's so popular then, but moving on . . . .) He drew a conclusion that the British automatically consider American seriousness to be one heck of a bore, while Americans can't stand people who pretend to be something they're not.
Now, I don't know how far that goes. I know plenty of unserious Americans, but the culture as a whole is built around being successful. British culture I don't actually know much about, or at least not enough to let myself guess. However, I can understand the Italian view -- never rush when it isn't necessary. (However, if you have a car, it's apparently very necessary. ) They, too, find American attitudes boring.
(There was a recent radio ad for an Italian resturaunt that summed that up: "Americans say things like 'I'm going to grab some food,' or 'I'm going to do lunch.' What is all this doing and grabing?" Having lived there, I know: the worst thing you can do in Italy is rush through a good meal.) |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2004 : 06:20:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
Of course, they also are jealous that I've been to Heidelberg castle in Germany.
What, not Nueschwanstein? (I'm probably spelling that one wrong -- phonetically it's Noi-shvan-styne.) That's the castle that Walt Disney copied. Personally, it's interior is decadent. Far too many golds and reds and such. Its grounds, construction, and walkways are good, though.
Just watch out when you're there in winter. My father fell down the hill. When he got back to the US embassy, he told his coworkers that the bruises on his face were from his wife.
Personally, for castle feels, you can't go wrong with Carcassone in southern France. It's not only the best preserved castle in continental Europe, it's also the longest-used. It was started by the Romans, and people just kept adding on. You can find enough achetectual styles there to get your imagination runing for just about any setting.
A good one I've been to in Italy is the Rocca Majore (the Big Rock) in Assisi. It's a nice little place that you can go looking at for the idea of a frontier fort. It wasn't one, but that was what I thought it looked like. Small but well-defended. It's surprising that it wasn't bigger, considering that Assisi was pretty important at that time. However, it was also one of the last forts built in Europe. With better and better cannon coming into play, it simply wasn't worth it any more. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
|
|
|
Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 02 Jul 2004 : 06:29:10
|
I have always been enamoured of ITalian food, especially the spices, seasonings and emphasis on tomatoes and carbs, but now find I aam in love wit htheir philosophy as well.
Sadly, anymore, I find I have to go to a good all you can eat joint to be left the hell alone enough to enjoy a lengthy meal, and be finished when I say I am, not some idiot with a spatula and half a high school education. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
Ethnicity
