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Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
 Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 21:07:49
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Are there any strong female liches in Faerun? I don't recall having seen any mention of one in the FRCS, nor in any of my 2e stuff.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 21:51:18
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There are at least two that come readily to mind, both from Ed. In the short story "Moonrise Over Myth Drannor" we see a female baelnorn, which is an elven form of a good lich.
There's one in Waterdeep, too. She's mentioned in Volo's Guide to Waterdeep (the proprietor of the Blushing Mermaid, as I recall), and also in Cloak & Dagger. She might have also been mentioned briefly in Powers & Pantheons (in the entry for Kyriani, in the House of the Moon write-up), but I won't swear to it.
The names of both escape me, though, and it'll be an hour before I get home to check. The Waterdhavian archlich (an archlich is a good-aligned variant of a lich) is of the Moonstar family, and agreed to lend her name to the Tel'Teukiira.
I want to say there's one with the Twisted Rune, as well, but I'd have to check. |
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Edited by - Wooly Rupert on 07 Dec 2004 21:53:01 |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 21:55:50
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| Malithra Undra. Also the archlich Saharel (FR13, FOR4, Shadows of Doom), and I recall a long-ago female lich mentioned in Prayers from the Faithful. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 21:58:37
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| I recall theres one in Undermountain and another female lich I believe appears in the Shadow of the Avatar series of novels |
“I am the King of Rome, and above grammar”
Emperor Sigismund
"Its good to be the King!"
Mel Brooks |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 22:41:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Malithra Undra. Also the archlich Saharel (FR13, FOR4, Shadows of Doom), and I recall a long-ago female lich mentioned in Prayers from the Faithful.
Yeah, Malithra Undra is the one in "Moonrise Over Myth Drannor". Alathene Moonstar was the other one I mentioned. |
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 23:40:04
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I want to say there's one with the Twisted Rune, as well, but I'd have to check.
Jymahna.
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Dec 2004 : 23:55:53
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Jymahna is a level 19 enchanter and was once a concubine before being turned into a lich by Shangalar, another powerful lich of the Twisted Runes.
There's also another powerful female undead in the group, Shyressa. She is a Wiz20/Acm3 vampire. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 00:05:39
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
Jymahna is a level 19 enchanter and was once a concubine before being turned into a lich by Shangalar, another powerful lich of the Twisted Runes.
There's also another powerful female undead in the group, Shyressa. She is a Wiz20/Acm3 vampire.
Plus her three unnammed vampires from Empires of the Shining Sea. :)
Zallanora Argentresses is a female elven demilich even though she's really Shoon VII. In 2e they were both 36th level.
But most of the liches seem to be male. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
Edited by - Kuje on 08 Dec 2004 00:06:28 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 00:16:10
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| I think it's mostly because of their own vanity, kuje. Women care about their appearance too much and wouldn't want to watch their face rot and fall apart just to live longer. Lol. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 00:42:44
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I think it's mostly because of their own vanity, kuje. Women care about their appearance too much and wouldn't want to watch their face rot and fall apart just to live longer. Lol.
That is wrong! Funny, but so wrong!  |
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Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 00:53:37
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^_- *twitch twitch* We're not all that shallow, you know!
But more seriously... why do you think the number of male liches outweighs the females so much? |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 01:06:11
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Because liches are evil and waiting to be killed by hardy adventurers. I blame it on the old TSR moral codes, primarily.
That, and rotting flesh doesn't look nice encased in chainmail bikinis, which all females in fantasy games or literature are obliged to wear for their portraits.
As a sidenote, though she may not be in YOUR game, Vlaakith, the Lich Queen, is in mine. And I keep her picture from "The Lich Queen's Beloved" As a aid for my players, as well as for it's... shal lwe say allure. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 01:22:34
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quote:
Originally posted by DDH_101
I think it's mostly because of their own vanity, kuje. Women care about their appearance too much and wouldn't want to watch their face rot and fall apart just to live longer. Lol.
Has to echo Wooly. Funny, but wrong. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 01:31:02
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Meh, someone had to say it. 
Kitira, there are many reasons. The one I gave, while was a joke and stereotype, would apply in such a place as Faerun. However, it could be that male wizards would resort to this while females may think of other ways to live longer. Or perhaps there are lots of female liches but they just don't draw as much attention as the males.  |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 03:13:55
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| I think it's simply because there seems to be far more male NPCs in the Realms than there are female NPCs... |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 03:15:34
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There was good old Varalla the Lich Queen who once ruled Darkhold - until Fzoul dusted her.
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 03:57:21
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
Has to echo Wooly. Funny, but wrong. :)
Well at least there haven't been any "glass ceilings" comments about female liches...yet.
Has anyone mentioned Zzarka Tuzarr from a past Perilous Gateway? |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 08 Dec 2004 03:59:40 |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 05:56:10
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| Hey, I never knew about that. Thanks, Sirius. Just when I thought I read all the FR articles in WotC, this one comes outta nowhere... |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Lina
Senior Scribe
Australia
469 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 09:38:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
^_- *twitch twitch* We're not all that shallow, you know!
But more seriously... why do you think the number of male liches outweighs the females so much?
Faerun does seem to be a male dominated society. That or families keep their daughters under lock and key so they don't achieve anything significant in their lifetime other than being a baby-poping machine. |
“Darkness beyond twilight, crimson beyond blood that flows! Buried in the flow of time. In thy great name. I pledge myself to darkness. All the fools who stand in our way shall be destroyed…by the power you and I possess! DRAGON SLAVE!!!”
"Thieves? Ah, such an ugly word... look upon them as the most honest sort of merchant."
-Oglar the Thieflord |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 15:49:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Lina
Faerun does seem to be a male dominated society. That or families keep their daughters under lock and key so they don't achieve anything significant in their lifetime other than being a baby-poping machine.
Yeah, what have any daughters in Faerun done? Ruler of Evermeet, Regent of Cormyr, and Moonblade bearer...all of that is small stuff really and not significant. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 16:31:37
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| Although we know Faerűn isn't male-dominated, it is a curiosity that published male NPCs outnumber female by about 2 to 1. And female liches less than that, though I wouldn't relate the number of women in that pitiable state to female empowerment. |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 17:05:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
Although we know Faerűn isn't male-dominated, it is a curiosity that published male NPCs outnumber female by about 2 to 1. And female liches less than that, though I wouldn't relate the number of women in that pitiable state to female empowerment.
Probably a correlation to gamer gender.
Don't forget Agalarond Sirius :)
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 17:26:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
Probably a correlation to gamer gender.
Exactly what I was thinking...
quote:
Don't forget Agalarond Sirius :)
Someone important resides in that area 
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Edited by - SiriusBlack on 08 Dec 2004 17:26:44 |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 17:41:37
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I am serious.
Look at the examples you gave, mostly the "good guys", and usually women that serve as positive rolemodels, and sometimes even sappily too good to be true.
I swear it comes back to not wanting lots of Female adversaries, due to hte old TSR policies and the tastes of the main gaming audience at the time much of the realms was developed. It was primarily male then, and is quite arguably still the same way(though that argument erodes more every day).
Even to this day, look at the list of writers for most of the published realms material, how many women do you see on the list? and of the men, most were raised in the old days, with more, shal lwe say, traditional values.
My players are still not overly fond of female villains, as they are not too fond of having to lay them low(and not in a good way). of course, evil bastard that I am I use it agaisnt them, but still, it's there. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 17:50:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
I am serious.
Look at the examples you gave, mostly the "good guys", and usually women that serve as positive rolemodels, and sometimes even sappily too good to be true.
I swear it comes back to not wanting lots of Female adversaries, due to hte old TSR policies and the tastes of the main gaming audience at the time much of the realms was developed. It was primarily male then, and is quite arguably still the same way(though that argument erodes more every day).
Even to this day, look at the list of writers for most of the published realms material, how many women do you see on the list? and of the men, most were raised in the old days, with more, shal lwe say, traditional values.
My players are still not overly fond of female villains, as they are not too fond of having to lay them low(and not in a good way). of course, evil bastard that I am I use it agaisnt them, but still, it's there.
Not to sound like a right wing femenist, but I think I pull off a good villain (according to people I know IRL, and a few from here) and I think that's a bit sexist to not have serious female villains. But you do make a good point, and I acknowledge it, Capn. Thanks. |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 17:51:09
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| Well, I'd take it it's the gender bias of the authors, predominantly Ed since more than half the named Realm characters are his, rather than an attempt to write for 'gamers'. There are of course worlds with much worse imbalances. I'm not sure that female villains generally are particularly underrepresented, though. |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 17:56:16
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Elf_Friend
Probably a correlation to gamer gender.
Exactly what I was thinking...
quote:
Don't forget Agalarond Sirius :)
Someone important resides in that area
The Simbul, queen of Aglarond |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 17:58:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
Not to sound like a right wing femenist, but I think I pull off a good villain (according to people I know IRL, and a few from here) and I think that's a bit sexist to not have serious female villains. But you do make a good point, and I acknowledge it, Capn. Thanks.
No doubt, no doubt. Women are ounce for ounce almsot pure concentrated evil, something that has been shown to me over and over by the female gamers that have passed the other side of the screen from me.
However, my idea is that it is less any representation about the capabilities of women, but more the way men *want* to percieve them. Generally speaking men don't want to think of a woman as a hardcore villain, wanting to instead see them as pleasant nurturing matronly figures. Or naked, depending on whim.
Of course that is just my observations, YMMV. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Mystery_Man
Senior Scribe
USA
455 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 17:59:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kitira Gildragon
[quote]
Not to sound like a right wing femenist....
Left-wing actually.
You kids and your goofy politics. |
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Kitira Gildragon
Learned Scribe
USA
191 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 18:04:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
No doubt, no doubt. Women are ounce for ounce almsot pure concentrated evil, something that has been shown to me over and over by the female gamers that have passed the other side of the screen from me.
Amen to that!
quote:
However, my idea is that it is less any representation about the capabilities of women, but more the way men *want* to percieve them. Generally speaking men don't want to think of a woman as a hardcore villain, wanting to instead see them as pleasant nurturing matronly figures. Or naked, depending on whim.
Of course that is just my observations, YMMV.
True enough. It's the desire to be seen as somewhat chivalrous, no? It makes it understandable, tho.
Elf friend: *VV Hell, this is what I get for being in a femenist class before typing all this stuff. Blaaaaaaaaaah. But you know what I meant. |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 08 Dec 2004 : 18:12:02
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Chivalrous? Yes, perhaps. Getting to be the hero often entails rescuing a damsel in distress, or something alogn those lines to most, and it plays up to the subconscious wills and desires of many. Add to that human insecurity and the urges that might entail to have one's mate feel indebted to them, or to *need*(as opoosed to want) them, and it feeds into the cycle.
of course it's a two way street, I have known lots of women who want to be rescued, and might even engineer situations requiring it. It also brings in role reversal situations, and what they might entail. For every woman who might want to get carried out of a burning building on the shoulder of a burly fireman(or carried out of a dragon's lair on the preferably unspiked shoulder of a dragonslayer) there is probably at least one man that wants to have a woman rescue him similiarly.
I know at least a hlf dozen men who say the scene in ROTK where Eowyn slays the Nazgul and it's mount are among the most erotic things they have ever seen. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Fem Liches?
