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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 03:00:39
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As we know 3ed introduced the 1 step alignment rule where Clerics and followers have to be either the Deities alignment or a neighbouring alignment this however falls down in the FR where several deities have absorbed the followers of a god who allowed whose worshipers have alignments unacceptable to the new deity.
This is my house rule for making the new rule and Realms history fit together
"At the end of the Time of Troubles AO gave the Deities who inherited portfolios from deities of a different alignments 20 years to convert the former Mystra/Mykrulites/Banite/Bhallists to one of the acceptable alignments (ie 1378) after that date the god can no longer grant spells to those followers/clerics"
The rule mainly affects Cyric and Mystra/Midnight and Kelemvor
Midnight inherited Mystras worshipers, the origional Mystra was LN so she would have had LE, LN,LG and TN the last 2 arent a problem as TN and LG are within one step of Midnights alignment NG, so since the ToT Midnight has been trying to convert the LN and LE followers to one of the acceptable alignments
Cyric inherited LE/LN/NE followers from Bane (Most of whom have left Cyrics worship since Banes return) LE/TN/CE/NE followers from Mykrul (most of whom hes lost to Kelemvor) LN/LE/NE followers of Bhaal and CG/CN/CE/TN followers of Leira by 1378DR Cyric has to convert all these followers to either NE/CN/CE any who havent converted are lost to Cyric
Kelemvor (LN) Inherited most of Mykruls portfolio From Cyric so his clergy is made up LG/LN/LE/TN/CE/NE
So what will happan to these Worshipers/Clergy who cant make the Alignment jump to the new deity? Likely they will be picked up by Shar (Mystras LE Wizards are prime candiates for Shadow weave users) and Velshoon (Those Necromancers and Clerics that Kelemvor inherited who cant live with Kelemvors no creating undead edict)
Now obviously there are areas where this doesnt quite work (The pre ToT LN Mystra having CG Elminster as a Chosen of Mystra etc)
Comments? Suggestions?
Id particularly be interested to see what Eric and George think
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Melfius
Senior Scribe
USA
516 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 03:21:28
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| Do you think attrition would take care of this? My thought would be that as the tenets of faith shift from the old to the new, the alignment of followers (the devout ones, anyways) would begin to move with them. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 03:46:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Melfius
Do you think attrition would take care of this? My thought would be that as the tenets of faith shift from the old to the new, the alignment of followers (the devout ones, anyways) would begin to move with them.
Not necessarily take Sememmon (the former ruler of Darkhold) in the old 1ed Grey box set Semmons divine patrons are listed as Mystra and Bane (This is before the Time of Troubles) now assuming that Sememmon has abandeoned Bane (or the very least has not returned to Banes worship since his return)that leaves Sememmon with Mystra (whose alignment is NG) Sememmon would have to move at least 2 alignment steps to be acceptable to the New Mystra/Midnight, he'd have to stop commiting evil acts (and possiably start making amens for those evil acts he'd commited in the past) and he'd have to stop being "lawful" which for Sememmon personality would mean not being a Tyrant by lording it over other people again something that hes been doing for a long time. I dont see Sememmon making the alignment jump to TN. Now the LN followers of the old Mystra probably could have shifted to the new alignment there only one step away from an acceptable alignment (LG and TN) Those LN followers who favoured Law could have been persuaded to become LG and those LN followers who valued Neutrality could have converted to TN.
Kelemvor suffers the same problem with CE and NE followwers from Mykrul, however he also faces another problem Kelemvor can legally have LE follower but why would a Former LE Mykrulite Necromancer embrace Kelemvor whose Dogma is Vehmently anti undead? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 04:32:47
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I think the 1 step rule should be chucked out the window, specifically for the reasons you state. I can't see a Weave-using mage not wanting to worship Mystra, even if she wasn't his patron deity. But if he's evil, he can't do it? Bah! Forget that...
I think it's more important to look at the portfolio, not the deity who weilds it. Mystra may be good, but magic itself is a neutral force. As a neutral force, I'd let anyone worship whoever held the portfolio. Ditto for death. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 04:49:27
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| I just want to point out that the 1 step rule ONLY is used for divine casters. :) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 05:41:08
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quote:
Originally posted by kuje31
I just want to point out that the 1 step rule ONLY is used for divine casters. :)
Either way, for certain portfolios, it doesn't make sense to stick to the deity's alignment. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 11:22:09
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I think the 1 step rule should be chucked out the window, specifically for the reasons you state. I can't see a Weave-using mage not wanting to worship Mystra, even if she wasn't his patron deity. But if he's evil, he can't do it? Bah! Forget that...
I think it's more important to look at the portfolio, not the deity who weilds it. Mystra may be good, but magic itself is a neutral force. As a neutral force, I'd let anyone worship whoever held the portfolio. Ditto for death.
Why would a wizard want to worship Mystra if his view of the world is not reflected in Mystras Clergys Dogma?
Mystra may be the goddess of magic but that doesnt mean she can restrict its use to Arcane spell casters who dont share her religious Dogma, in fact if she where to restrict access its highly likely AO would come and lay the smack down on her (She tried this at a Deity level in the Novel of Prince of Lies and she was forced to restore Cyrics access to the Weave.
People who worship Mystra do so because their highest ideals are to do with magi and the weave, however take Manshoon hes 18th Level+ Wizard but he doesnt worship Mystra, Manshoons ideals are those of a Tyrant and the weave is just a tool for Manshoon to maintain his Tyranny so he follows Bane god of Tyranny because Bane reflects manshoons goals and ideals |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 11:50:19
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That's only his principle focus. There's nothing to say that he won't say "By Mystra, I hope this spell works"; if Mystra I were still around, he might even have said "Mystra aid this spell" since Mystra wouldn't care one way or the other so long as Manshoon didn't wreck the balance. (If he was, then he probably wouldn't say the little prayer, because hey, don't attract attention!)
Remember, no one's monotheistic in the Realms. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 12:04:02
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
That's only his principle focus. There's nothing to say that he won't say "By Mystra, I hope this spell works"; if Mystra I were still around, he might even have said "Mystra aid this spell" since Mystra wouldn't care one way or the other so long as Manshoon didn't wreck the balance. (If he was, then he probably wouldn't say the little prayer, because hey, don't attract attention!)
Remember, no one's monotheistic in the Realms.
If you add a real world flavour to that example "by Christ I hope that works"
It shows how Flippant such a comment is (Hell Ive heard atheists make similar sort of comments)
Taking a Gods name in vain doesnt make you a follower of that religion |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 12:07:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Why would a wizard want to worship Mystra if his view of the world is not reflected in Mystras Clergys Dogma?
Because she is the source of magic, that which a wizard needs. Just because he's evil doesn't mean he can't revere the source of that which gives him his power... |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 12:07:43
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Hey, my own father does that, and he's about as atheist as the come.
I have to point out, though, that there are no rules against invoking a god's name "in vain" in FR, at least that I know of. As such, you can't draw the line like that as you can in Real Life. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 12:08:54
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| Excellently put, Wooly, thank you. |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 21 Dec 2004 : 12:22:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Why would a wizard want to worship Mystra if his view of the world is not reflected in Mystras Clergys Dogma?
Because she is the source of magic, that which a wizard needs. Just because he's evil doesn't mean he can't revere the source of that which gives him his power...
That being the case why dont Bards worship Mystra? Bard spells are Arcane in nature so they draw on the weave, by your arguement all Bards should at least pay lip service to Mystra. The weave is a tool the same way a sword is a tool saying that all Wizards worship Mystra (in one fom or another) would be like saying all Fighters worship Tempus.
As for Mystra being the Goddess of Magic she isnt alone Azuth, Savra's, Velsharoon, Cyric and even Shar are alternatives to Mystra as they represent different aspects of Magic |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 00:43:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
That being the case why dont Bards worship Mystra? Bard spells are Arcane in nature so they draw on the weave, by your arguement all Bards should at least pay lip service to Mystra. The weave is a tool the same way a sword is a tool saying that all Wizards worship Mystra (in one fom or another) would be like saying all Fighters worship Tempus.
As for Mystra being the Goddess of Magic she isnt alone Azuth, Savra's, Velsharoon, Cyric and even Shar are alternatives to Mystra as they represent different aspects of Magic
Because wizards are all about magic, and bards are not. Bards are all about music.
And saying all fighters should worship Tempus is not the same thing. A wizard is nothing without magic. A fighter can be a barbarian, a berserker, a sellsword, a boxer, a fencer, a thug... The possibilites are endless, and not all involve battle. A thug could club someone over the head from behind, a boxer or fencer could be simply testing his skill and/or proving himself... |
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Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 01:30:00
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| BTW, in the 1e box set, Manshoon did worship Mystra and gave lip service to Bane. :) And no not all wizards worship Mystra. Many of them worship Azuth or the other deities of magic. This is why it bugs me Leira is dead since most illusionists worshipped her instead of Mystra. |
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Edited by - Kuje on 22 Dec 2004 01:31:24 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 01:54:15
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The alignment rule has been broken.
Sune has Paladins after all and that is two steps away. I do not see any evidence as well that AO imposed the one step rule after the Time of Troubles.
Bards should revert back to ability to cast some arcane and some divive spells, as they (at least originally) were collectors of lore and law.
The 3.x changes while making some things more simple also caused some rather strange results.
Paladins two steps away from deity, arcane healing spells only castable by bards.
Chaos and Law is often not that far apart as two steps. This of course leads to the what is each in the game, which could be discussed forever. Does alignment systen need to be redefined again or perhaps an exception rule made for some dive spell casters based on portfolios?
For me The can be Drow Paladins and Bards can also recieve the blessings from the Lady of the Dance. I however do not expect game designers to change core rules to accomidate me or the bug (concerning Sune's Paladins) within the current ruleset.
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 02:30:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
[quote]Originally posted by Dargoth
Because wizards are all about magic, and bards are not. Bards are all about music.
And saying all fighters should worship Tempus is not the same thing. A wizard is nothing without magic. A fighter can be a barbarian, a berserker, a sellsword, a boxer, a fencer, a thug... The possibilites are endless, and not all involve battle. A thug could club someone over the head from behind, a boxer or fencer could be simply testing his skill and/or proving himself...
Wizards are not ALL about magic, you say that my comparision with fighters and Tempus is flawed well the same can be said for Wizards, a Wizard can be a Tyrant, an Advisor to the Throne, the leader of Criminal cartel etc
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Emperor Sigismund
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 22 Dec 2004 : 04:20:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Dargoth
Wizards are not ALL about magic, you say that my comparision with fighters and Tempus is flawed well the same can be said for Wizards, a Wizard can be a Tyrant, an Advisor to the Throne, the leader of Criminal cartel etc
But a wizard without magic is not a wizard... A fighter, on the other hand, can still be a fighter without engaging in battle.
Further, a fighter's power is from within, not from Tempus. Even if a wizard does worship Azuth or Velsharoon, his power is still coming to him through the grace of Mystra. |
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Alparon
Seeker
Turkey
67 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 20:26:54
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if Mystra is in charge of all the magic network in the realms what are Azuth and Velsharoon for
is Mystra superior to them?
i don't have much idea about Velsharoon but i know that Azuth is in the Faerun pantheon and he is an intermediate power(or was he a great power?)
or:
since Mystra is good, do the evil mages pray to Azuth?(i thought that he was good aligned also) |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36880 Posts |
Posted - 23 Dec 2004 : 21:06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Alparon
if Mystra is in charge of all the magic network in the realms what are Azuth and Velsharoon for
is Mystra superior to them?
i don't have much idea about Velsharoon but i know that Azuth is in the Faerun pantheon and he is an intermediate power(or was he a great power?)
or:
since Mystra is good, do the evil mages pray to Azuth?(i thought that he was good aligned also)
Mystra is the goddess of magic. Azuth is the god of spellcasters -- those who use that magic. Velsharoon is the god of necromancers. Azuth and Velsharoon both serve Mystra (along with Savras), but Vellie is doing it mostly to save his undead skin from Kelmvor. |
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My rule for FRing 3ed Alignment restrictions
