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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
 Posted - 04 May 2005 : 21:34:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Votan
On the other hand, the whole worshippers -> divine power thing in Forgotten Realms really does confuse me alot. It is a neat idea but it seems to get in the way of story telling more often than not --especially as the Gods of Toril seem to be awfully involved.
It should be clearly understood it is not just number of followers, though Greater are normally expected to have millions of followers.There are other undined rules that AO imposed that determines the Rand of a god. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 21:41:23
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Actually, this reminds me of how out of place Elistaes's character seems to be in this series, at least toward the end. Usually, good gods don't try to kill off evil ones, just protect the innocent from their rapatious nature, or convert all their followers so that they lessen in power etc. If good gods do start deciding to put a hit out on evil ones, just due to the fact that they are evil, gods more interested in "balance" tend to step in. The reason the Dawn Cataclysm is even notable is because usually good gods don't try to wipe out evil ones.
This means that most evil gods that fall prey to another god are usually attacked by evil gods, or neutral ones when there are conflicts in portfolios. For example, during the Time of Troubles, Shar kills off a bunch of lesser evil and neutral gods to absorb their portfolios, Cyric kills Leira, but the only good god that kills a major evil deity is Torm killing Bane, which is in defence of Tantras.
(I still don't quite get Lebelas' insanity during this time, but thats neither here nor there)
Now you could point out that Elistrae does not personally try to kill Lolth, but rather moves one of her clerics to do so. Essentially, she gives a priestess a one in a million shot to kill Lolth, almost certainly damning all those on the mission. I can see a good god giving their followers missions that they know may kill them. But I could see Elistrae sacrificing her clerics to save, say, neutral drow refugees from the broken cities of the underdark before wasting their lives in a shot to kill Lolth.
In the grand scheme of things, yes Lolth may be a thorn in Elistae's side, but if the dark elves are evil and matriarchal, they aren't likely to turn good immediately and follow the Seldarine. I rather pictured Shar stepping in if Lolth had fallen, with only a little change to the society of the Dark Elves (perhaps to the detriment of surface dwellers).
I think that is why Corellon does not directly act against Lolth. Lolth's death does not redeem the dark elves any more that the casting down of Lolth condemned them in the first place. They were already evil, Lolth just jumped in to steer the boat, so to speak. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 04 May 2005 : 21:58:12
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Actually, this reminds me of how out of place Elistaes's character seems to be in this series, at least toward the end. Usually, good gods don't try to kill off evil ones, just protect the innocent from their rapatious nature, or convert all their followers so that they lessen in power etc. If good gods do start deciding to put a hit out on evil ones, just due to the fact that they are evil, gods more interested in "balance" tend to step in. The reason the Dawn Cataclysm is even notable is because usually good gods don't try to wipe out evil ones.
Eilistraee seeks to distroy evil and its leaders. She would not hesitate at all to kill Lolth, nor would any of her followers. As for the deities of balance right now it appears they are watching evil take over.
quote:
This means that most evil gods that fall prey to another god are usually attacked by evil gods, or neutral ones when there are conflicts in portfolios. For example, during the Time of Troubles, Shar kills off a bunch of lesser evil and neutral gods to absorb their portfolios, Cyric kills Leira, but the only good god that kills a major evil deity is Torm killing Bane, which is in defence of Tantras.
Torm should have done more killing and Torm is not Eilistraee.
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(I still don't quite get Lebelas' insanity during this time, but thats neither here nor there)
Now you could point out that Elistrae does not personally try to kill Lolth, but rather moves one of her clerics to do so. Essentially, she gives a priestess a one in a million shot to kill Lolth, almost certainly damning all those on the mission. I can see a good god giving their followers missions that they know may kill them. But I could see Elistrae sacrificing her clerics to save, say, neutral drow refugees from the broken cities of the underdark before wasting their lives in a shot to kill Lolth.
You send your best not your worst follower on the chance. Or if not willing to risk the top, those near the top. To succede or distract to reach others.
quote:
In the grand scheme of things, yes Lolth may be a thorn in Elistae's side, but if the dark elves are evil and matriarchal, they aren't likely to turn good immediately and follow the Seldarine. I rather pictured Shar stepping in if Lolth had fallen, with only a little change to the society of the Dark Elves (perhaps to the detriment of surface dwellers).
Shar is not Drow though perhaps could advance in gather of followers. A Drow Deity would pull more then a deity of a lessor race.
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I think that is why Corellon does not directly act against Lolth. Lolth's death does not redeem the dark elves any more that the casting down of Lolth condemned them in the first place. They were already evil, Lolth just jumped in to steer the boat, so to speak.
Corellon condemned the Drow, good and Evil alike, so if not acting at all it might be because he does not want to say he made an error. The removal of a corupting force will not change alignment of a race by high magic, it however does allow a different message to be given supported by a deity.
Of course we also now know even dead deities do not stay dead, though they were susposed to remain in that state. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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SirUrza
Master of Realmslore
USA
1283 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 07:33:41
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What a ride that was!
I have to say, the scene between Halisstra and Danifae impaled on the swords will definately be one of the Realms moments I soon won't forget. What bothered me the most was that they survived it, that woulda been a good ending with closure for them both.
Halisstra's new role as Lady Penitent I fear will ultimate get buried. I don't think we'll see ANY kind of further development with her, even if we beg and plead. I was kinda let down when Halisstra turned against Eilistraee, I was hoping for some big fight that just didn't happen.
A novel on Pharaunn return would be great, but like Halisstra/Penitent, this will probably be another loose thread left discontinued. Maybe it was just the guy in me, or maybe it woulda just been more chaotic, but was anyone else rooting for Pharaunn to be Lolth's Yor'thae?
Quenthel's return to Menzo was kinda predictable. Of the 3, she was the only female with any kinda future outside of the series, so I didn't think she'd become Lolth.
I will say this though, the end of Resurrection leaves me feeling a little let down. I suppose I expected more from this, especially considering how long it took to get here, but Menzo is back to business as usual, which means it was all for nothing.
Hopefully Wizards will surprise me and follow up on the loose threads of the novel instead of completely abandoning them, but I serious doubt it.
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"Evil prevails when good men fail to act."
The original and unapologetic Arilyn, Aribeth, Seoni Fanboy. |
Edited by - SirUrza on 06 May 2005 07:35:20 |
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fulcrum
Acolyte
USA
4 Posts |
Posted - 06 May 2005 : 18:21:22
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
What a ride that was!
I have to say, the scene between Halisstra and Danifae impaled on the swords will definately be one of the Realms moments I soon won't forget. What bothered me the most was that they survived it, that woulda been a good ending with closure for them both.
What bothered me more was that Hallistra was stupid enough to let it happen. And Hallistra DID have armor on, armor that should have stopped the blade from penetrating her flesh. It isn't like you can delicately guide the tip of a blade into the joints between armor when the said blade IS IMPALED THROUGH YOUR BODY.
But it was just another stupid thing Hallistra did, another time she proved she couldn't outsmart a houseplant.
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 03:27:52
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quote:
Originally posted by SirUrza
What a ride that was!
A novel on Pharaunn return would be great, but like Halisstra/Penitent, this will probably be another loose thread left discontinued. Maybe it was just the guy in me, or maybe it woulda just been more chaotic, but was anyone else rooting for Pharaunn to be Lolth's Yor'thae?
I will say this though, the end of Resurrection leaves me feeling a little let down. I suppose I expected more from this, especially considering how long it took to get here, but Menzo is back to business as usual, which means it was all for nothing.
Hopefully Wizards will surprise me and follow up on the loose threads of the novel instead of completely abandoning them, but I serious doubt it.
My two biggest problems with the book were Pharaun's unfitting death and the utter predictability of the book. Everything was foreshadowed so far in advance that there was little suspense. The book didn't really grip me. And the large number of pages dedicated to Gromph's search for Dyrr's phylactery were making me yawn. There were some interesting and well written scenes, but no true surprises or twists.
Halisstra got exactly what she deserved for her unforgivable stupidity. I have no interest in seeing her redeemed. I do not blame Kemp for her feeblemindedness, he was simply being consistant with the previous book. Giving her the intelligence and wisdom of a common house plant when she converted was the previous author's fault. Hundreds of years of the reflexive back-stabbling and treachery that are the staples of Drow culture were suddenly forgotten as she became the equivalent of a convent-raised 14 year old, a total babe in the woods. That was ridiculously undrow-like, even for an Elistraen priestess. She couldn't be bothered to even delay her mission a few minutes in order to save Ryld who was both totally devoted to her and a major asset to her cause. Nevertheless she was more then willing to risk both her monumental mission and the lives of her friends in her un-drowlike blind trust of Danifae. And then she blamed the disastrous outcome on Elistrae rather then her own stupidity. As far as I'm concerned Halisstra deserves to suffer heavily for a very, very long time. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 03:50:08
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quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
I do not blame Kemp for her feeblemindedness, he was simply being consistant with the previous book. Giving her the intelligence and wisdom of a common house plant when she converted was the previous author's fault.
Which previous author? |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 03:54:31
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And regarding the possibility of Pharaunn being Lolth's Yor'thae, no I didn't really consider the possibility since he was male. But after finishing the book the idea did hit me that perhaps one of lolth's children might have chosen to run off, stumble into Pharaun, and join with him rather then die or submit to the greatest, forming a new demi/lesser deity in the process. The drow could use a male deity that is patron to wizards. And it would have made for an interesting twist to the ending, particularly if he managed to steal one of lolth's 8 aspects.
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R0GUE
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 04:16:25
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
I do not blame Kemp for her feeblemindedness, he was simply being consistant with the previous book. Giving her the intelligence and wisdom of a common house plant when she converted was the previous author's fault.
Which previous author?
i think that was Lisa Smedman wasn't it? She was the one who introduced Eilistraee and Halistra as a new convert to the Dark Maiden.
Nope actually I just went to my bookshelf to go check and it was Phillip Athans. I guess Ms. Smedman introduced Sey'll and the other Eilistraeans, but Mr. Athans really was the one who made her convert.
I wouldn't say she was acting stupid in her newly converted days though. She really didn't start acting truly idiotic until she started believing Danifae would ever want to convert along with her. |
You have had your pocket pilfered by the R0GUE.  |
Edited by - R0GUE on 07 May 2005 04:17:13 |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 04:26:52
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
I do not blame Kemp for her feeblemindedness, he was simply being consistant with the previous book. Giving her the intelligence and wisdom of a common house plant when she converted was the previous author's fault.
Which previous author?
I don't have the books on me, but I'd say her stupidity goes at least as far back as book 5 which was written by Athans. I still can't believe that she allowed Danifae to talk her out of saving Ryld's life. Ryld was a highly potent fighter who was totally devoted to her, had thrown away everything else for her, and had saved her life. In coldly practical terms he was -extremely- valuable to her. And she supposedly loved him to boot. And yet she allowed a former slave to talk her into allowing him to die on the grounds that rescuing him might delay her quest? feh. I don't buy it. |
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The Blue Sorceress
Learned Scribe
107 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 05:02:59
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I haven't read past book three and don't really intend to, espceially now that my three reasons for even reading the books past book one are gone.
I had always hoped that Halisstra would be redeemed (I'm a sucker for a redemption story) and that she had Ryld (who was my favorite character by far) would get a chance to live, if not a peaceful life, at least one where they were together and happy because of that. I also enjoyed Pharaun, simply because he was a bastard with panache. Those sorts of characters appeal to me.
quote:
quote:
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quote:
I do not blame Kemp for her feeblemindedness, he was simply being consistant with the previous book. Giving her the intelligence and wisdom of a common house plant when she converted was the previous author's fault.
Which previous author?
i think that was Lisa Smedman wasn't it? She was the one who introduced Eilistraee and Halistra as a new convert to the Dark Maiden.
Nope actually I just went to my bookshelf to go check and it was Phillip Athans. I guess Ms. Smedman introduced Sey'll and the other Eilistraeans, but Mr. Athans really was the one who made her convert.
I haven't trusted Athans since I was exposed (albeit indirectly) to the crime against writing that he pereptrated in creating the novelizations for the Baldur's Gate computer games. I don't know what his other writing is like, but just seeing his name next to the words "author" made me cringe.
-Blue |
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
I see your walrus and raise you a carpenter |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 05:28:30
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quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
I don't have the books on me, but I'd say her stupidity goes at least as far back as book 5 which was written by Athans.
The Halisstra written by Athans and Kemp resembled very little to the character I read in the 2nd-4th books within the series. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 05:32:58
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quote:
Originally posted by The Blue Sorceress
I haven't trusted Athans since I was exposed (albeit indirectly) to the crime against writing that he pereptrated in creating the novelizations for the Baldur's Gate computer games. I don't know what his other writing is like, but just seeing his name next to the words "author" made me cringe.
-Blue
Before his contribution to the WOTSQ, I had read some horrible comments regarding Mr. Athans' writing in regards to the BG computer games. Despite this and my reaction to his novel for the WOTSQ series, I still wish to try my luck with this author one more time. Thus, I'll be picking up the first novel later this year for the Watercourse Trilogy . However, if I'm unhappy with that book then it will be the last time I read an Athans' novel. |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 06:35:53
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
I don't have the books on me, but I'd say her stupidity goes at least as far back as book 5 which was written by Athans.
The Halisstra written by Athans and Kemp resembled very little to the character I read in the 2nd-4th books within the series.
None of the books in this series truly impressed me. But what bothered me the most were the character inconsistancies and missed opportunities for character development. In the first few books only Pharaun and Ryld were truly developed. And Pharaun was developed at Quenthel's expense. He made her look stupid rather then the highly gifted scheming prodigy she was originally depicted as by Salvatore. Danifae had an interesting start in the second book, but most of the plot hooks were never developed and she languished in the third and fourth books. Meanwhile Halisstra just didn't make much of an impression on me until her romance with Ryld which I found touching. But she was every bit the Drow up through her murder of Seyl. Then suddenly in the fourth book Pharaun went from smart and witty to petulant and petty. In previous books he had always had a valid reason to argue with Quenthel. But in the 4th volume he seemed to pick fights with her just to annoy her. Quenthel did seem to get a little smarter in that book as well even if she was still in the throes of depression. In the 5th book Pharaun returned to his old personality thankfully. And just as thankfully Quenthel retained her newfound intelligence. She still wasn't on Pharaun or Danifae's level, but at least she wasn't a 2 dimensional cardboard cut-out anymore. Unfortunately the 5th book was also when Halisstra was stupidified.
While the 6th book may have had other flaws, it did the best in balancing the characters while dealing with all of the character inconsistancies introduced in the earlier volumes. There was a lot of character development in the final book. I really enjoyed the verbal jousing that occurred. It's unfortunate that only one side of the verbal exchanges were interesting in the first few books. Pharaun always won those and Quenthel always lost. Unfortunately for some of the characters it was too little too late. I think Kemp would have done a lot better had he authored one of the early books rather then the final one since that would have given him greater opportunity for the character development which seems to be his strongpoint. The series was already a bit of a mess when he got to it. And he seemed so caught up in trying to tie everything up into the desired ending that the book became overly predictable.
So for me it was an ok ending to an ok series. The series wasn't bad, but neither was it nearly as good as it could have been. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 14:16:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
None of the books in this series truly impressed me. But what bothered me the most were the character inconsistancies and missed opportunities for character development. In the first few books only Pharaun and Ryld were truly developed. And Pharaun was developed at Quenthel's expense. He made her look stupid rather then the highly gifted scheming prodigy she was originally depicted as by Salvatore.
Er - where was Quenthel depicted as a "highly gifted scheming prodigy"? The only novel where she appeared before WotSQ was Siege of Darkness, where she was a minor character and, IMHO, didn't display a lot of intelligence by none-too-subtly calling for Matron Mother Baenre's death during the Time of Troubles, or being outraged by predictable losses during the attack on Mithral Hall. Yes, it was hinted that Quenthel at that time was highly favored of the Spider Queen, but so what?
quote:
I think Kemp would have done a lot better had he authored one of the early books rather then the final one since that would have given him greater opportunity for the character development which seems to be his strongpoint. The series was already a bit of a mess when he got to it. And he seemed so caught up in trying to tie everything up into the desired ending that the book became overly predictable.
I don't think it would have made much difference... As nearly as I can tell, Kemp did as good a job as possible after book 5. Book 4 was IMHO a little bit weaker than the first 3 books, but still a good read and a worthy addition in terms of series continuity. |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 15:36:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
Er - where was Quenthel depicted as a "highly gifted scheming prodigy"? The only novel where she appeared before WotSQ was Siege of Darkness, where she was a minor character and, IMHO, didn't display a lot of intelligence by none-too-subtly calling for Matron Mother Baenre's death during the Time of Troubles, or being outraged by predictable losses during the attack on Mithral Hall. Yes, it was hinted that Quenthel at that time was highly favored of the Spider Queen, but so what?
On second thought you're right about Siege of Darkness. Now that I think about it I believe my high expectations for Quenthel come from the Menzoberranzan boxed set where she was presented as having achieved the rank of high priestess in record time to the envy of all her peers, including her family. So I expected her to come across as smarter then the average garden spider in WOTSQ. Silly me for expecting such a prodigy for having a high intelligence. I got the feeling from reading the first few novels that were it not for her last name, she'd never have reached her lofty position at Arach-Tinilith. She's just not smart enough.
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I don't think it would have made much difference... As nearly as I can tell, Kemp did as good a job as possible after book 5. Book 4 was IMHO a little bit weaker than the first 3 books, but still a good read and a worthy addition in terms of series continuity.
The first 3 books did fit together more tightly with each other. And of the entire set I remember book 2 the most fondly, probably due to the interesting introductions of Danifae, Halisstra and Aliisza . I also recall the fall of Ched Nasad quite vividly. Books 4 and 5 didn't fit together with the earlier books so well, But I didn't quite see book 5 as the huge disaster you did. What were the reasons you considered it to be such? The earlier mentioned stupidification of Halisstra? Something else? |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 15:53:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
On second thought you're right about Siege of Darkness. Now that I think about it I believe my high expectations for Quenthel come from the Menzoberranzan boxed set where she was presented as having achieved the rank of high priestess in record time to the envy of all her peers, including her family. So I expected her to come across as smarter then the average garden spider in WOTSQ. Silly me for expecting such a prodigy for having a high intelligence. I got the feeling from reading the first few novels that were it not for her last name, she'd never have reached her lofty position at Arach-Tinilith. She's just not smart enough.
Actually, I believe she displays more intelligence in WotSQ than in Siege of Darkness, but that's not saying all that much. Still, I do agree that her position as Mistress of Arach-Tinilith might well have more to do with her last name than her personal accomplishments.
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The first 3 books did fit together more tightly with each other. And of the entire set I remember book 2 the most fondly, probably due to the interesting introductions of Danifae, Halisstra and Aliisza . I also recall the fall of Ched Nasad quite vividly. Books 4 and 5 didn't fit together with the earlier books so well, But I didn't quite see book 5 as the huge disaster you did. What were the reasons? The earlier mentioned stupidification of Halisstra? Something else?
There's also the overlong, drawn-out duel between Gromph and Dyrr. I understand Athans may have wanted to depict it as an epic fight, but it came across as way too long for me. And I never doubted who would win.
On that last subject, there's also the fight between Jeggred and Ryld. Talk about a battle whose outcome was pre-determined. I had a vision of the author wondering "How can Jeggred win this fight? Oh, I know! Let's have Hallistra display more stupidity in not bothering to go save her greatest ally. Oh, and let's have Jeggred use some woodsman's axe to cut through the powerfully-enchanted Splitter." (Btw, according to his stats in Dragon #302, Jeggred doesn't even have the Sunder feat.) |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 16:33:05
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quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
I didn't quite see book 5 as the huge disaster you did. What were the reasons? The earlier mentioned stupidification of Halisstra? Something else?
Take a look at thread and you'll see some scribes' negative comments regarding the fifth book. |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 16:55:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
But I didn't quite see book 5 as the huge disaster you did. What were the reasons? The earlier mentioned stupidification of Halisstra? Something else?
I just recalled something else I didn't like about book 5. Danifae's finger-sucking revenge scene on that old decrepit drow mage. So what if he used to be the house mage, it's still hard for me to believe that the daughter of the house matriarch in a lolth-worshipping noble household would have to put up with sexual abuse from a "mere male". One word from the little girl would have made him the next torture victim of the house priestesses regardless of whether or not he had actually committed the crime. His death would have been both very slow and extremely painfail as an example to other house males. On top of that it's just plain stupid to abuse (sexually or otherwise) a possible future high priestess who will have the power of life and death over you. (That's what slaves and commoners are for...) The scene needed further explanation to work. While I can accept that such a rape is still within the realm of the possible, it is so highly improbable that it needs further explanation then was given for me to buy into it.
The scene seemed such a waste to me. She didn't need to suck on the old guy's finger to kill him. And we didn't know that he had abused her until she killed him. It seemed like a convenient item inserted into the story in an attempt to explain the rather repulsive scene. It would have been much more interesting if she had made good on her promise and seduced Pharaun back in book 3 or 4 in order to gain his assistance in freeing her as per the plot hooks in book 2. She could have then attempted to use both his attraction to her and his animosity against Quenthel to manipulate him just as she manipulated the others. Pharaun's responses and Aliisza's subsequent anger and potential violence upon finding out would have made for some very interesting reading.
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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5699 Posts |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 18:50:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
There's also the overlong, drawn-out duel between Gromph and Dyrr. I understand Athans may have wanted to depict it as an epic fight, but it came across as way too long for me. And I never doubted who would win.
Agreed.
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On that last subject, there's also the fight between Jeggred and Ryld. Talk about a battle whose outcome was pre-determined. I had a vision of the author wondering "How can Jeggred win this fight? Oh, I know! Let's have Hallistra display more stupidity in not bothering to go save her greatest ally. Oh, and let's have Jeggred use some woodsman's axe to cut through the powerfully-enchanted Splitter." (Btw, according to his stats in Dragon #302, Jeggred doesn't even have the Sunder feat.)
It does feel as if the author was stretching the story too much in order to kill off poor Ryld. In addition to the earlier mentioned sudden stupidification of Hallistra, the bit about the super powerful axe taken off an incompetent woodsman in a tavern that appeared in the middle of nowhere was lame....once again I agree. Was the book a trainwreck though? I suppose it depends on how attached you were to Ryld and/or Hallistra. While I liked Ryld a great deal and was annoyed at the way his death was orchestrated, Pharaun was the character to whom I was the most attached. So to me the book wasn't so much a wreck as it was a big disappointment. But I can certainly understand where you're coming from. I really did not like the way Pharaun died. It seemed a bit of a stretch too. But at least for Pharaun there's a hook to bring him back, no such hook exists for Ryld. :(
It's a sad irony that of the main characters in the series, the only ones I'd definitely be willing to read more books about, ie. Ryld and Pharaun, have been killed off. I liked Valas, and there were a few moments when I liked Nimor as well, but not enough to read a book in which either of them is the main character. And I'm totally sick of Gromph (and that unstoppable killing machine Drizzt too for that matter). None of the females really caught my interest other then Aliisza who was a secondary character, not a main character. There's no way in hell I'd touch a book primarily about Quenthel or Halisstra, both of whom I've grown to despise, and Danifae who I was luke-warm about is now part of Lolth. So the Drow series seems dead to me at the moment with the exception of a single interesting thread...
Aliisza lacks the power to ressurect Pharaun herself. And while a smart, enterprising alu fiend such as herself no doubt has the numbers of several powerful evil beings with the required power in her little black book, they will no doubt expect something more in return then a little bit of fun underneath the sheets. Being the enlightened being that she is, Aliisza would no doubt make the commitments on Pharaun's behalf rather then her own. From her perspective she's already doing the legwork and bedwork, and it's Pharaun's soul that is being brought back from the dead, so the rest of the price should be his to pay. Thus Pharaun would no doubt find himself bound by whatever unsavory promises Aliisza needed to make in order to get him back. And those promises would be a royal pain in the rear end for him to fulfill/escape... But she'll point out that he has no right to be the least bit upset at her. If it weren't for her intervention his soul would still be suffering endlessly on Lolth's plane. And she has had to make sacrifices too, just look at the ugly thing she had to sleep with to get him back... 
That would be a fun story! And no doubt he'd be incredibly anti-Lolth after the way he was treated. Now we just need to think of a reasonable way to bring Ryld back too.  |
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R0GUE
Seeker
USA
54 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 21:47:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Well met
We're quickly creeping into book 5 discussions here, please let us stick to Resurrection in this scroll. Oh, and could all please try to be a little more polite in some cases. Thank ye
Will do Alaundo! Sorry. |
You have had your pocket pilfered by the R0GUE. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 23:06:51
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quote:
Originally posted by Alaundo
Well met
We're quickly creeping into book 5 discussions here, please let us stick to Resurrection in this scroll. Oh, and could all please try to be a little more polite in some cases. Thank ye
Oops! Sorry, Alaundo. I guess I got carried away.
Shere Khan, since Alaundo has requested we stick to Resurrection, I won't reply to your latest post except to say that I liked Ryld far more than Jeggred, and that a character as interesting as Pharaun coming back by whatever means would indeed be interesting. |
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The Blue Sorceress
Learned Scribe
107 Posts |
Posted - 07 May 2005 : 23:41:20
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quote:
quote:
Aliisza lacks the power to ressurect Pharaun herself. And while a smart, enterprising alu fiend such as herself no doubt has the numbers of several powerful evil beings with the required power in her little black book, they will no doubt expect something more in return then a little bit of fun underneath the sheets.
(snip)
If it weren't for her intervention his soul would still be suffering endlessly on Lolth's plane. And she has had to make sacrifices too, just look at the ugly thing she had to sleep with to get him back...
That would be a fun story! And no doubt he'd be incredibly anti-Lolth after the way he was treated. Now we just need to think of a reasonable way to bring Ryld back too.
True resurrection baby!
I'd still like to see Halisstra redeemed. Since it's been indicated that her goodness was merely "buried", mayhaps someone could dig it up. *looks hopeful*
Probably won't happen in a book, but it'd definitely be an element in the background of one of my campaigns though. In fact I'd probably alter things enough so that Lolth's plans were partially foiled. That is, maybe she doesn't get her lady penitent, but still ends up with Danifae as a part of her, gets a small boost in power but doesn't become a Greater Goddess. Maybe Halisstra manages to cut a leg off of her or something but doesn't manage to kill her with that fancy weapon Eilistraee gave her? Danifae's addition to the body of Lolth might repair that damage, but might not, would have to depend.
That would considerably interrupt the status quo. Lolth (maybe as the Maimed Queen... sounds pretty cool) it not weakened or stregnthened, at least by very much, but Eilistraee would probably gain some sort of power in, perhaps evening things out between mother and daughter, or maybe even tipping the scales in Eilistraee's favor somewhere down the line.
I would have liked to have seen House Baenre's position be a little more precarious. As in precarious enough that a properly motivated and armed group of PC's from the second and/or third houses could stand a realistic chance of unseating them.
Another way of taking it would be that if Lolth had been put in a more precarious position by her power grab that maybe she would relax her repression of drow males in an attempt to stem the flow of worshippers to Vhaerun. Something along the lines of: okay, you guys still don't get to rule, but we will accept your presence in the priestly ranks as more junior members in decent numbers so you have a chance to at least feel like you have more opportinuties. There also might be a trend toward negotiating treaties with surface races so that the cities like Menzo that have been weakened could take a little time to nurse their wounds. It would probably end up with increased trade with surface races and an influx of luxury goods that weren't easy to get a hold of before. Places like Menoz and the rebuilt Ched Nasad would become, though still drow dominated, much more cosmopolitan, which would have all sorts of interesting long term effects.
I guess to summarize my position, I would have liked to have seen Lolth's attempt to gain more power intially seem at least partially successful, but in the long run actually damage her control over the drow race. The Realms has a history of having power grabs end up backfiring; for example, Karsus' attempt to become a god, the Dawn Cataclysm and probably a dozen more examples I can't come up with off the top of my head. It would be nice to see that pattern would continue to assert itself.
-Blue
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Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
I see your walrus and raise you a carpenter |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2005 : 00:44:02
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Just in regards to Quenthel's intelligence, I too was wondering about her change from book one ( I do think she was at the very least decisive and tactical in fending off the demon assaults ) to her greed ( in book two ) to her utter spineless voidmindedness in book three. But book four actually explained a lot about her despair at Lolth's silence and the influence that her sentient whip has on her. My main complaint here is that we didn't get hints of her whip influencing her earlier, it just seems to go from advising her to guiding her fairly quickly.
In total review, I think this was always intended, but it was hard to coordinate this subtle change between six authors. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2005 : 00:48:18
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Sorry, should have put this two coppers in the last comment, but . . .
If Lolth had been less successful, or had almost gotten something, but it turned into boosting Elistrae, it would have been very reminicent of the TSR days of evil, no matter how powerful and skillful and well thought out, never wins. In fact, if anything, this series does prove that the old code of ethics is dead.
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2005 : 01:36:36
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quote:
Originally posted by The Blue Sorceress
quote:
True resurrection baby!
I'd still like to see Halisstra redeemed. Since it's been indicated that her goodness was merely "buried", mayhaps someone could dig it up. *looks hopeful*
Probably won't happen in a book, but it'd definitely be an element in the background of one of my campaigns though. In fact I'd probably alter things enough so that Lolth's plans were partially foiled. That is, maybe she doesn't get her lady penitent, but still ends up with Danifae as a part of her, gets a small boost in power but doesn't become a Greater Goddess. Maybe Halisstra manages to cut a leg off of her or something but doesn't manage to kill her with that fancy weapon Eilistraee gave her? Danifae's addition to the body of Lolth might repair that damage, but might not, would have to depend.
It would be easier for me to give the saga a different ending then to accept the written ending as canon and allow Halisstra to be re-redeemed in my world. My preferred outcome would be that she rescued Ryld and that two of them together managed to kill a pair of Lolth's lesser aspects while Pharaun managed to steal another for himself leaving Lolth with only 5 aspects instead of the 8 she intended. Danifae would escape with the rest of Lolth's aspects and become the Yorthae of a somewhat weakened Lolth. Pharaun would become a demigod while Halisstra and Ryld would have their happy ending, at least until an angry Lolth sent some assassins after them. But that would be a story for another book... 
quote:
I would have liked to have seen House Baenre's position be a little more precarious. As in precarious enough that a properly motivated and armed group of PC's from the second and/or third houses could stand a realistic chance of unseating them.
Me too. As it is Baenre's position is not only untouched, but stronger then ever with House Dyrr having sworn fealty.
quote:
Another way of taking it would be that if Lolth had been put in a more precarious position by her power grab that maybe she would relax her repression of drow males in an attempt to stem the flow of worshippers to Vhaerun. Something along the lines of: okay, you guys still don't get to rule, but we will accept your presence in the priestly ranks as more junior members in decent numbers so you have a chance to at least feel like you have more opportinuties. There also might be a trend toward negotiating treaties with surface races so that the cities like Menzo that have been weakened could take a little time to nurse their wounds. It would probably end up with increased trade with surface races and an influx of luxury goods that weren't easy to get a hold of before. Places like Menoz and the rebuilt Ched Nasad would become, though still drow dominated, much more cosmopolitan, which would have all sorts of interesting long term effects.
It would be interesting to see the beginnings of a political movement to give males more say (and secretly an anti-Baenre alliance as well) backed by the less matriarchal houses such as Barrison Del'Armgo, Faen Tlabbar and Xorlarrin. House Agrach Dyrr could have been a part of this movement also had they not been slapped down. But I fear that with both Lolth's and House Baenre's increased power, the female supremacist conservatives lead by Triel and Quenthel Baenre will be able to successfully portray the war as the result of what happens when a male such as the lich Dyrr gains too much power.
[quote] I guess to summarize my position, I would have liked to have seen Lolth's attempt to gain more power intially seem at least partially successful, but in the long run actually damage her control over the drow race. The Realms has a history of having power grabs end up backfiring; for example, Karsus' attempt to become a god, the Dawn Cataclysm and probably a dozen more examples I can't come up with off the top of my head. It would be nice to see that pattern would continue to assert itself.
Agreed.
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The Blue Sorceress
Learned Scribe
107 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2005 : 02:56:01
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quote:
If Lolth had been less successful, or had almost gotten something, but it turned into boosting Elistrae, it would have been very reminicent of the TSR days of evil, no matter how powerful and skillful and well thought out, never wins. In fact, if anything, this series does prove that the old code of ethics is dead.
Is the answer to the old code of ethics to now let evil succeed even if they villains' plans are poorly thought out and full of holes big enough for the heroes to drive an eighteen-wheeler through them? The way to create a realistic and successful force of evil isn't to dumb down the forces of good.
I wasn't sold on the idea that Lolth's was all that well thought out in the first place, and none of her actions justify an increase in power. Her followers die off in droves and I would think that there would be a lot of drow whose faith in her power was at the very least shaken. Like I said, power grabs by gods in Faerun have at least traditionally resulted in the power-grabbing deity getting smacked down.
I'm not saying I'd like to have seen Lolth crushed, just set back so that maybe she would actually come up with a plan that makes sense a way down the line. I'd have rather seen her retreat for a while and mount a truly organized and intelligent comeback later on if she was going to try something.
The whole series seemed a like an excuse to puff the drow up and make them threatening again after years of watering them down, but I think Salvatore and the authors did a poor job of selling the idea, at least to me. This hasn't ushered in a new era for the drow, merely prolonged the current one and disappointed many people who wanted to see things really shaken up properly. The character inconsistencies makes me think the project was poorly coordinated, and that what coordination was there was hampered by some examples of shoddy writing evident, which though less prevalent was still present in the earlier novels. I don't expect literature from an FR novel, but the books I read fell short of even my underwhelming expectations.
I'm not saying that there weren't likeable parts, or that they were a total loss, just that I think that the results didn't live up to the potential, and that makes me even more disappointed.
On a purely emotional level I would have been pissed because they killed off my favotire characters even if the books had been written skillfully. I'm even grumpier because they weren't.
-Blue |
Absolute Power Corrupts Absolutely.
I see your walrus and raise you a carpenter |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2005 : 03:14:02
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quote:
Originally posted by The Blue Sorceress
The whole series seemed a like an excuse to puff the drow up and make them threatening again after years of watering them down, but I think Salvatore and the authors did a poor job of selling the idea, at least to me. This hasn't ushered in a new era for the drow, merely prolonged the current one and disappointed many people who wanted to see things really shaken up properly. The character inconsistencies makes me think the project was poorly coordinated, and that what coordination was there was hampered by some examples of shoddy writing evident, which though less prevalent was still present in the earlier novels. I don't expect literature from an FR novel, but the books I read fell short of even my underwhelming expectations.
Very well said. 
And for those interested, this novel is now up to #27 on the NY Times Hardcover best seller list. |
Edited by - SiriusBlack on 08 May 2005 03:17:36 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 08 May 2005 : 03:38:05
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I will say this . . . whatever other effects this might have on the "big picture" in a year and a half campaign time this may well affect my PCs, since they captured a House Jaelre drow, have semi-befriended him, and are turning him over to the Elistraeans that the Lady Penitent is likely to be visiting . . .
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Resurrection (WotSQ #6) - SPOILERS
