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PaulSKemp
Forgotten Realms Author
808 Posts |
 Posted - 05 Jun 2005 : 15:32:43
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Sorry Paul, didn't mean to mischaractarize there . . . I just wanted to point out that whatever else anyone may think of RAS he wasn't an ogre standing over all of you writers on the series saying "Kill that one, he's too popular."
Understood. I just don't want blame going where it doesn't belong. Pharaun's death was my call and I not only stand by it and wouldn't change a thing, I'm pleased as can be with how it played out and reads. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jun 2005 : 15:37:04
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Actually, I have always been a big proponent of major characters dying and staying dead to create impact in a book, as long as it makes sense. That having been said I loved Pharaun and Ryld both, though my hopes were dashed when Master Argith "bit it."
I've said it before, Ryld and Pharaun reminded me of a dark elf/evil version of Fafhrd and Mouser. |
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Alisttair
Great Reader
Canada
3054 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2005 : 05:36:53
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quote:
Originally posted by PaulSKemp
quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Sorry Paul, didn't mean to mischaractarize there . . . I just wanted to point out that whatever else anyone may think of RAS he wasn't an ogre standing over all of you writers on the series saying "Kill that one, he's too popular."
Understood. I just don't want blame going where it doesn't belong. Pharaun's death was my call and I not only stand by it and wouldn't change a thing, I'm pleased as can be with how it played out and reads.
I agree with killing off Pharaun. In fact, I even agree with killing off the Draegloth and with Phil killing off Ryld. The death of all males and the survival (in different ways) of the females further cemented the fact that the females rule in drow society. Pharaun was my favorite as well and I HATED the females. That goes to show that the authors did an amazing job in portraying those characters. Great work fellas (and lady). |
Karsite Arcanar (Most Holy Servant of Karsus)
Anauria - Survivor State of Netheril as penned by me:
http://www.dmsguild.com/m/product/172023 |
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Freakboy
Seeker
USA
63 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jun 2005 : 13:51:37
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quote:
Originally posted by Danilo Thann
Okay so I don't reallly post that much here, and this will probably get the boot from Alaundo but for me it must be said. I know that R.A.S. was involved with the premise(sp?) behind the WoTSQ novels and I we all know that he wrote "The Two Swords" so here is my concern. Disagree if you want. I've been reading the stories of Drizzt since I was about 18 (I'm 32 now believe it or not) and throughout all of his adventures never in my life did I ever think that an orc....AN ORC!!!! Would get the better of such a hero. I mean c'mon we've seen him beat Artemis, a balor(twice), an evil artifact, Menzo's most powerful, the Sword Coast's most infamous pirates, and just about every enemy he's faced....yet an orc fights him to a draw?!?!?! Then...enter the WoTSQ and possibly the most colorful, excellent, interesting character of all Realmslore gets killed after 6 novels? (btw Pharaun was the ONLY reason I kept reading this series after book 3...) As a fan, I'm angry, seriously. I know that Paul S. Kemp is a great writer, and I respect his work, and it isn't his fault but c'mon What was the purpose behind: 1st taking away Pharaun's independant nature, THEN killing him off for his sacrifice??
I feel like the ability to decide if characters die is an important one for authors because it can inhibit an author's ability to tell the story as they see it if unreasonable restrictions are put on what they can do with a character. Phauran was easily my favorite character, but I don't think there has to be a reason for killing him. As Lolth says in the book, that is the nature of Chaos and it is enough. Quenthel's failure was in needing to see a purpose in what Lolth put her through. That is the very essence of what Lolth is. Phauran himself often proclaimed himself as a child of Lolth, so it only stands to reason that he would be subject to the same sort of issues as all Lolth worshipping Drow. Candidly, most Drow die of violence and not old age. So while I agree with your disappointment over Phaurans death I don't feel angry about it. As others have said, it take real guts to kill such a popular character and in it's own way, WotSQ had guts from the very beginning for being the first Realms novel series in a lot of categories. It was the first 6 book continuous series focusing on the same characters. It was the first to have evil anti-heros as it's protagonists throughout. It is the first to focus on any Drow not named Liriel or Drizzt. That is a good thing in my mind. Killing those characters is also a good thing in it's own way. It is true to the nature of what the Drow are. I hated seeing Ryld die and felt that way even more so with Phauran, but these were still 6 amazing books. |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 10:53:57
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I like gritty novels. One of the reasons why I stopped reading FR novels a long time ago was because they had become too politically correct. (Drizzt makes me want to gag, and that's but one example among many.) And I certainly don't have a problem with characters that I like dying. Wulfgar's death didn't bother me in the slightest. Nevertheless, when a major character dies, they should die in a way that fits the character. Pharaun's death fit Triel's personality, it fit Drow culture, it fit Lolth's plane, but it didn't fit Pharaun. Pharaun was both extremely smart and utterly selfish. And he was well aware that both Triel and Danifae would be more then happy to kill him the second they no longer felt they needed him. Plus there was the warning from Alissza. But suddenly Pharaun stopped being Pharaun. His brain shut down. His selfishness disappeared and he risked his life on behalf of those who would betray him in a heartbeat. And of course they thanked him for saving their lives by letting him die. I don't have a problem with this last part. I expected them to do just that. My big problem was with Pharaun becoming so stupidly unselfish just before he died.
And with all due respect to the author, the argument that a battle to the death between Pharaun and Gromph was inevitable had Pharaun returned is pure garbage. Pharaun is no archmage (no 9th level spells, or even 8th level spells if I recall correctly) and doesn't have anywhere Gromph's magical arsenal stored up for such a battle. And he's smart enough to realize that he's not yet ready to take Gromph on. Plus he was working for Gromph who had sent him on the expedition. So Gromph could easily have taken credit for Pharaun's success while simultaneously rewarding Pharaun for a job well done. Thus I don't buy that excuse of a battle between the two of them being inevitable at all. There are other mages in Menzo of greater power than Pharaun and thus a greater threat to Gromph. Evil doesn't mean stupid and Pharaun is smart enough not to pick a fight when the odds are against his survival. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 13:00:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
But suddenly Pharaun stopped being Pharaun. His brain shut down.
I believe that maledy is called the "Halisstra syndrome."
quote:
Thus I don't buy that excuse of a battle between the two of them being inevitable at all. There are other mages in Menzo of greater power than Pharaun and thus a greater threat to Gromph. Evil doesn't mean stupid and Pharaun is smart enough not to pick a fight when the odds are against his survival.
Thank you. You are not alone in these thoughts. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 14:06:36
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quote:
Originally posted by SiriusBlack
quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
But suddenly Pharaun stopped being Pharaun. His brain shut down.
I believe that maledy is called the "Halisstra syndrome."
*LOL* |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 18:41:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Shere Khan
I like gritty novels. One of the reasons why I stopped reading FR novels a long time ago was because they had become too politically correct. (Drizzt makes me want to gag, and that's but one example among many.) And I certainly don't have a problem with characters that I like dying. Wulfgar's death didn't bother me in the slightest. Nevertheless, when a major character dies, they should die in a way that fits the character. Pharaun's death fit Triel's personality, it fit Drow culture, it fit Lolth's plane, but it didn't fit Pharaun. Pharaun was both extremely smart and utterly selfish. And he was well aware that both Triel and Danifae would be more then happy to kill him the second they no longer felt they needed him. Plus there was the warning from Alissza. But suddenly Pharaun stopped being Pharaun. His brain shut down. His selfishness disappeared and he risked his life on behalf of those who would betray him in a heartbeat. And of course they thanked him for saving their lives by letting him die. I don't have a problem with this last part. I expected them to do just that. My big problem was with Pharaun becoming so stupidly unselfish just before he died.
And with all due respect to the author, the argument that a battle to the death between Pharaun and Gromph was inevitable had Pharaun returned is pure garbage. Pharaun is no archmage (no 9th level spells, or even 8th level spells if I recall correctly) and doesn't have anywhere Gromph's magical arsenal stored up for such a battle. And he's smart enough to realize that he's not yet ready to take Gromph on. Plus he was working for Gromph who had sent him on the expedition. So Gromph could easily have taken credit for Pharaun's success while simultaneously rewarding Pharaun for a job well done. Thus I don't buy that excuse of a battle between the two of them being inevitable at all. There are other mages in Menzo of greater power than Pharaun and thus a greater threat to Gromph. Evil doesn't mean stupid and Pharaun is smart enough not to pick a fight when the odds are against his survival.
I think you mean Quenthel, not Triel.
As for Pharaun, yeah, his death was lame. If he'd survived, I'd have come away at least satisfied with Resurrection. As it is, I dislike the book - and the series - more and more.
Btw, according to his stats in Dragon #302, Pharaun was a Wiz14/Acm3, and he did have one 9th level spell. |
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Shere Khan
Acolyte
36 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 00:31:58
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
I think you mean Quenthel, not Triel.
As for Pharaun, yeah, his death was lame. If he'd survived, I'd have come away at least satisfied with Resurrection. As it is, I dislike the book - and the series - more and more.
Btw, according to his stats in Dragon #302, Pharaun was a Wiz14/Acm3, and he did have one 9th level spell.
1. Whoops! Yep, I meant Quenthel, not Triel. Part of the problem is that Quenthel's personality reminds me too much of Triel's back when she headed the academy. Other then the fact that Quenthel talks to her whip, it's hard for me to put a finger on how their personalities are different. Quenthel wasn't really fleshed out until near the end of the series. She was the stereotypical shrill, domineering, whip-wielding high priestess for far too long with little in the way of personality beyond that. While I liked the early novels more then the later novels overall, the later novels did a better job of portraying her as something more then just another high priestess cookie-cutter cutout.
2. Pharaun had a 9th level spell? It's a shame he never had the opportunity to cast it.
Regardless, I still don't believe he'd pick a fight with Gromph unless he were absolutely certain that he'd win. It's stupid to pick a fight when the odds aren't in your favor and the penalty for losing is death or worse (like being given to some demon as his eternal chewtoy).
3. I agree. His death was lame. The scene felt forced and contrived. He suffered an attack of the "Halisstra syndrome" (ie. when smart characters suddenly start acting uncharacteristically stupid) as SiriusBlack has pointed out.  |
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riverc0il
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 04:17:15
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i think SiriusBlack's review on page 3 of this scroll sum up my thoughts almost exactely. especially the untouchable factor, as SB mentioned. i think many readers were hoping for at least some sort of major change or shift to make things in the underdark interesting again, but the series failed to deliver on this item. as a 'novels only' fan, the untouchable factor bothers me. but from a gaming stand point, i can understand not wanting to create major changes within the realms every year which would likely irritate a many a gamer trying to keep abrest of realms changes and developments.
SB quoted Valas near the end of the series saying: ”Another day of violence, infighting, murder, and betrayal. Lolth and the city deserved each other, he decided…” (Resurrection, p. 342). Valas and I are of the same mindset of being done with Menzo and Lolth. WotSQ set up great possibilities for something greater to come about. dark elves are a fascinating read, but when no greater push can be accomplished or stroven for than preserving the status quo, it gets old rather quickly. the followers and passages about the other dark elf deities are so much more interesting because the characters can be much more dynamic. that is why we the readers generally love dark elf characters that step outside the Menzo mould, and there are a lot of them! thus, Valas was an awesome character and left rather undeveloped, imo. i loved how he came and went, picking fights when he knew he could get in and get out alive, thus he bailed before following the group to Lolth's realm. personally, i thought it would have been in character for Valas to vanish before that chaos ship took flight...
pharaun's death was a tragedy in that such a great character had to come to an end baring a ressurection (salvatore did this once and his novels' plots have suffered ever since, imo - i really hope the ressurection game is not played just for the sake of popularity even though i loved the character). but one thing to keep in mind, and it is very important: if lolth and drow culture did not substantially change, this is a VERY justifiable outcome, imo. after all, he was only a male *shakes head*. at least that is the way i see it, pharaun's death reinforced how little things changed. finally, as much as i loved the character, having a well loved main character meet his end is in an odd way... satisfying. it reassures readers that the tension is justified, that the realms really are that dangerous, and even the toughest adventurers meet their end... even when they are beloved stars in a novel. i wish other realms books would kill off a few more major characters in stories to remind us that any one can die in the realms on any given day.
Ched Nasad's transition seems to be one of the biggest developments, but honestly... i do not find myself that interested in the further development of that sub-plot.
Freakboy wrote:
"These authors really made it evident how each drow can be specially unique and yet how the race as a whole can still exist under the paradigm that is does."
Yes! i consistantly throughout the series said "how in the realms can this society continue to exist even with or without lolth?!" but the authors always seemed to pull it together and showed a uniqueness to it's characters. great point and well articulated.
i wasn't big on how Halisstra was portrayed after finding the cresent blade, but specifically in resurrection. she seemed too emotional and irrational (which would naturally rule her out for the choosen of lolth). i wasn't sure it was meant to be a character development or a way to keep the reader guessing. i just didn't find the back and forth inner turmoil believable or realistic, but that's just my opinion which isn't worth a cantrip.
i would like to add that i believe kemp did a great job writing this novel. kemp did a fantastic job "moving" characters through the story and world both figuratively and literally. i felt the scenes were well setup and descriptions on point with some great dialogue. essentially, kemp is an author i would like to read more of based on resurrection. however, i believe the plot details regarding the so called "untouchables" (for which i see more than the four big ones previously stated) that were already finalized were limiting to what could have potentially been a fantastic conclusion and a novel that actually shook and reshaped the realms into something different. sadly, WotSQ will be remembered by this reader as potential unrealized through no fault of any of the authors, but rather the folks that ultimately set forth the key plot items and untouchable factors. |
-steve |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 05:09:24
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Here here...we do need Pharaun to come back in some way, because leaving him dead'd be the greater crime.
Pharaun has always been selfish and opportunistic...and Ryld's death should've bothered him SOMEWHAT. He shouldn't have brushed it off, should NOT have thought it bothered him in the least. He didn't even think of make Jeggred or Danifae pay after they didn't heed him.
Pharaun would never have been bigheaded enough to challenge Gromph...he'd have returned, as a valued aid maybe, his position restored and shame would be gone...but he would never think to threaten Gromph...he'd wait for centuries for Gromph to die or be incapcitated or until he could call himself Gromph's peer...and he had a HUGE piece of info over Gromph's head. |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 13:40:21
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quote:
Originally posted by Ethriel
Here here...we do need Pharaun to come back in some way, because leaving him dead'd be the greater crime.
Don't worry. I'll be very surprised if he does not come back.
quote:
Pharaun has always been selfish and opportunistic...and Ryld's death should've bothered him SOMEWHAT. He shouldn't have brushed it off, should NOT have thought it bothered him in the least. He didn't even think of make Jeggred or Danifae pay after they didn't heed him.
Agreed. If nothing else, they took away someone Pharaun felt he could count on to back him in any dispute.
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 16:19:50
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And Pharaun always knew he felt something for Ryld...he felt a twinge of loss he has to surpress in Dissolution, he realized he'd miss Ryld in Annihilation.
Pharaun experienced trust in Ryld. Soemthing a Dark Elf normally wouldn't...
SB, I do agree with you that I usually hate immortal characters and ressurections, but after this, I think Pharaun's death would be the far greater crime...if he died, I'd have liked him to go out on his terms, not like him being....NOT Pharaun.
It would be interesting: If he returns, his faith in Lolth, if he ever had any will be shot to the hells and back. Point is: There's no real justification for the death he got |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 18:26:22
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quote:
Originally posted by riverc0il
but one thing to keep in mind, and it is very important: if lolth and drow culture did not substantially change, this is a VERY justifiable outcome, imo. after all, he was only a male *shakes head*. at least that is the way i see it, pharaun's death reinforced how little things changed. finally, as much as i loved the character, having a well loved main character meet his end is in an odd way... satisfying. it reassures readers that the tension is justified, that the realms really are that dangerous, and even the toughest adventurers meet their end... even when they are beloved stars in a novel. i wish other realms books would kill off a few more major characters in stories to remind us that any one can die in the realms on any given day.
It's not just Pharaun's death that bothers me; it's the manner of his death. Throughout the series, Pharaun had been shown to be a very intelligent and cunning character - in fact, the most clever character in the party. But then he suddenly gets a case of Hallistrasis, that is, turning stupid for no good reason. I mean, like Valas, even more than Valas, Pharaun should have seen that he was going up against tremendous opposition, and as if that wasn't bad enough, his so-called allies would betray him the instant he got into serious trouble.
quote:
however, i believe the plot details regarding the so called "untouchables" (for which i see more than the four big ones previously stated) that were already finalized were limiting to what could have potentially been a fantastic conclusion and a novel that actually shook and reshaped the realms into something different. sadly, WotSQ will be remembered by this reader as potential unrealized through no fault of any of the authors, but rather the folks that ultimately set forth the key plot items and untouchable factors.
Er - actually, Paul Kemp has said in his thread that, except for Danifae, the ultimate fate of the characters was up to him. So Pharaun's blood is on his hands. And after this lackluster ending, I dread what Kemp will do with a RSE trilogy. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 04 Jul 2005 : 23:50:48
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| Well, Paul's a great author and his writing was the one thing that saved this book...however, he did make some mistakes. Pharaun's death was a serious one...and we should've gotten more with Nimor and Vhok |
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riverc0il
Acolyte
USA
19 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 02:02:39
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quote:
Er - actually, Paul Kemp has said in his thread that, except for Danifae, the ultimate fate of the characters was up to him. So Pharaun's blood is on his hands. And after this lackluster ending, I dread what Kemp will do with a RSE trilogy.
krafus, i never suggested that pharaun's blood was not on kemp's hands but mearly suggested that it is a reasonable death despite readers being unhappy about it. i did read where kemp said that the only thing dictated to him was that danifae was to be the choosen and the rest was up to him. however, perhaps the characters fates were up to kemp but not the larger picture i would guess. kemp likely could not have written in certain things into the story that would have changed menzo or the drow culture fundamentally which was my point.
good point regarding how pharaun dies being an issue. i was let down that pharaun did not get to take care of jeggred or go down in a blaze of glory against a worthy advasary. |
-steve |
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SiriusBlack
Great Reader
USA
5517 Posts |
Posted - 05 Jul 2005 : 02:37:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
Throughout the series, Pharaun had been shown to be a very intelligent and cunning character - in fact, the most clever character in the party. But then he suddenly gets a case of Hallistrasis,
 I love that term. |
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Krafus
Learned Scribe
246 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2005 : 01:21:18
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quote:
Originally posted by riverc0il
krafus, i never suggested that pharaun's blood was not on kemp's hands but mearly suggested that it is a reasonable death despite readers being unhappy about it.
Well, if by "reasonable" you mean that it's a reasonable fate for Pharaun, I reluctantly agree. But if you mean that the manner of his death was reasonable, I fully disagree.
quote:
i did read where kemp said that the only thing dictated to him was that danifae was to be the choosen and the rest was up to him. however, perhaps the characters fates were up to kemp but not the larger picture i would guess. kemp likely could not have written in certain things into the story that would have changed menzo or the drow culture fundamentally which was my point.
Which is one of the greater failings of the series. In the end, what did the War of the Spider Queen change? Nothing of any real consequence. The really interesting characters the series introduced are all dead or totally changed. Soon enough, Lolth, the drow race, Menzoberranzan and House Baenre will all be back to business as usual. I'm left with the increasingly bitter feeling the whole series was little more than an attempt to cash in on the popularity of drow and Salvatore.
quote:
good point regarding how pharaun dies being an issue. i was let down that pharaun did not get to take care of jeggred or go down in a blaze of glory against a worthy advasary.
Yeah, that might have made the pill a bit easier to swallow. Instead... *sigh* |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2005 : 02:57:53
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I don't know that if you have a book that doesn't live up to peoples expectations, especially in a shared series like WOTSQ.
I will say by example, a friend of mine who is a Star Wars novel junkie absolutely hated Elaine Cunninham's SW novel. (Elaine, if you read this, it was all Glenn, not me, lol) I still pointed him toward Evermeet becuase I know that he will love that book.
Elaine, in my book, is a great author, and Paul is doing his darndest to put himself in that category with me as well. Ressurection actually got me to go back and read his Erevis Cale books, and I am so glad that I did.
Although on that point I will agree, Ressurection didn't begin to do Paul as much justice as the Erevis Cale books do. |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 06 Jul 2005 : 03:08:36
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| Yeah, I've gotta agree...Dark Journey was....not a very good novel. But I love most of Elaine's stuff...the 'villain escapes' notwithstanding |
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Ethriel
Learned Scribe
USA
272 Posts |
Posted - 07 Jul 2005 : 03:26:51
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I also wanna add how it should've been:
MUCH higher survival rate if anything: Ryld, Pharaun and Valas end by watching the city and Valas's thoughts changes to a conversation on Menzo between the three. In the end, Pharaun smirks and looks to Ryld who nods and Pharaun asks Valas if he could use 'friends in high places'
Valas says his organization just may and with a lightl laugh, Pharaun and Ryld start a walk back to Tier-Breche, Pharaun regaling Ryld with his story of how he escaped the tentacles of the aboleths |
Edited by - Ethriel on 07 Jul 2005 03:30:14 |
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Xandos Anskul
Acolyte
USA
15 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2005 : 08:13:43
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| As a side note, someone said Phaurun did not cast 8th or 9th level spells. Didn't he cast Wail of the Banshee at some point? |
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crushingsky
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2005 : 12:11:54
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And whatever happened to that plot line introduced in book 1 about Gromph trying to kill Quenthel? Substantial portions of the book were taken up with that substory. Although, it did have the dual purpose of illustrating the weakness of the priestesses of Lloth.
Anyways.
Seriously, if anyone in book 6 did'nt deserve to die the way they did it was the elf girl Feliane. She gets half devoured by Jeggred and it's even implied that he "played around" with her while he did it. Overall the most horrifying death in the series. A person can live for hours or even days in such a condition as long as their heart, lungs, and major circulatory system is intact. That the rest of the group stands by and observes this spectacle with varying levels of detachment or amusement only underscores how evil they are. Although I found all this disturbing, it was appropriate behavior for a demon such as Jeggred and his drow cohorts. In fact, after finishing the series I realized how out of place it felt to me. Scenes like that were few and far between in this series.
It's easy to be charmed by evil characters such as these when they are only tormenting each other or just passing the time idly but it's a different matter when they act out their natures on innocent people. It kind of reminded me of that movie "Mr. Frost" with Jeff Goldblum where he plays Satan locked up in a mental health hospital for torturing children. A health care worker? knows what he has done but is so charmed by his wit, manner, and seeming compassion that she practically falls in love with him to the point of championing him. Then she finally sees the videotapes that Mr. Frost had made of his work on the kids and she is totally repulsed and shattered...
I loved every single book in this series on it's own. I do find flaws with the objective of the series and some consistency issues but they've already been detailed on this thread.
I'm a big fan of Eilistraee but I thought the treatment of her followers behavior and Hallistras (de)conversion was also appropriate in the series. I had to make some leaps of reasoning for it be believable so perhaps it just was'nt clearly illustrated by the authors of the last couple books. I could easily write a thousand words on the dynamics I read into this sub-plot alone but let me just say that I've had a bit of experience with religous-converts and love-hate relationships. It's tragic and horrifying, and yes seemingly idiotic, but to me believable. Well done, Paul Kemp. Easily the most daring of an undaring series. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2005 : 23:21:04
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quote:
Originally posted by crushingsky
And whatever happened to that plot line introduced in book 1 about Gromph trying to kill Quenthel? Substantial portions of the book were taken up with that substory. Although, it did have the dual purpose of illustrating the weakness of the priestesses of Lloth.
Gromph did kind of made up his mind about that during Book 3, when he realized that he needs the priestess of Lolth around. Then there's the fact that the Archmage even tried to kill his sister was that he knew she didn't have any of her divine powers. With her divine powers, Quenthel could repel almost any assassins he send and maybe even trace it back to him. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4702 Posts |
Posted - 15 Jul 2005 : 23:36:39
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quote:
Originally posted by crushingsky
I'm a big fan of Eilistraee but I thought the treatment of her followers behavior and Hallistras (de)conversion was also appropriate in the series. I had to make some leaps of reasoning for it be believable so perhaps it just was'nt clearly illustrated by the authors of the last couple books. I could easily write a thousand words on the dynamics I read into this sub-plot alone but let me just say that I've had a bit of experience with religous-converts and love-hate relationships. It's tragic and horrifying, and yes seemingly idiotic, but to me believable. Well done, Paul Kemp. Easily the most daring of an undaring series.
They could not even get the High Hunt right as far as the series go.
I do admit that the last book had to deal with prior issues, however reconversion to Lolth tends to make little sense at all (look at the payment rewarded). If Hallistra could not stay good (and I am uncertain she became good) wanted to return to Evil if she had any Wisdom at all she would select another diety to privide some protection. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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crushingsky
Acolyte
5 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jul 2005 : 10:40:21
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Kentinal, I do agree with you on the high hunt. If I remember reading correctly, even Lisa Smedman admits she might have fudged on that one. For a goddess that revolves her domain around redemption it seems strange that her followers would'nt be empathic to the plight of a lycanthrope. Inexplicably though, is'nt Eilistraee's sword enchanted against Lycanthropes? Or was that her singing swords?
You could possibly chalk that up to the hypocritical side of any religion. Although, that side of the faith dynamic does'nt seem to get much treatment in realms fiction. Interestingly enough though, Quenthals "hypocrital" tendency to look for meaning and structure is what cost her "chosen of LLoth" status. Granted, it was predetermined for Danifaee to become chosen in the series but I always thought that aspect of Quenthal was strange considering the domain of her goddess.
I did'nt want to spam this thread with another big essay so I'll try to keep my response on Hallistra's reconversion brief. Essentially, to live in the domain of LLoth is to be a victim of LLoth and her other followers. No one wants to be a victim. The only way to be less of a victim is to gain power and status in Lloth's eyes. Therefore, after meeting the basic needs of physical survival, gaining power becomes everything. Trust and kinship will merely leave one open to being victimized. At the height of Hallistra's faith in Eilistraee she had a goddess that did'nt victimize her and could protect her from being victimized from others. Following her mistep with Danifaee she felt like a victim again in the worst possible way. She believed that Eilistraee could/would not protect her. Written between the lines of Halistrass later ruminations about escaping Lloth is the realization that as long as she is a victim she is in Lloths domain and the only way to escape is to go up. In my mind, love of song and dance is secondary for a new convert to Eilistraee. Feeling safe is imperative.
I think Paul Kemp did miss an opportunity for further development of Hallistra's fall from grass when she strangled Feliane. Hallistra had obviously developed kinship and trust with her fellow sisters in Faith. She obviously felt horror and guilt when they were brutalized because of her rash charge at Quenthel. People will do anything to avoid feeling guilty(unless they are Drizzt), even hold the object of their guilt in contempt. If Mr. Kemp had brought this further into play it would have made the reconversion more believable. I'm thinking he may have intended for it to be unspoken and implied, but that would be inconsistent with his earlier treatment of her internal dialogue and drama.
As for conversion to yet a another diety, most people in the realms know of at least several gods but even former priests don't carry a divine rolodex. It takes divine intervention(rare), a divine artifact(she has none), or a sponsor to convert to a new god.
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 22:08:33
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Does this final novel can give us a date on wich Lloth's worshipers gain back access to their spells?
Thanks. |
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DDH_101
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1272 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jul 2005 : 23:39:48
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| Skeptic, Lolth's priestesses actually recovered their spells at the end of Annihilation. |
"Trust in the shadows, for the bright way makes you an easy target." -Mask |
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Skeptic
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1273 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jul 2005 : 00:29:54
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| Oh sorry, I didn't read any of them but Lloth fell silent in my current campaign and the PCs discovered it.. so I need to know when they got them back.. |
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Accursed
Acolyte
Australia
10 Posts |
Posted - 25 Jul 2005 : 17:21:45
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quote:
Originally posted by Krafus
In the end, what did the War of the Spider Queen change? Nothing of any real consequence. The really interesting characters the series introduced are all dead or totally changed. Soon enough, Lolth, the drow race, Menzoberranzan and House Baenre will all be back to business as usual. I'm left with the increasingly bitter feeling the whole series was little more than an attempt to cash in on the popularity of drow and Salvatore.
My sentiments exactly. So much potential wasted. |
Change is neither good nor evil, it just is. |
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Resurrection (WotSQ #6) - SPOILERS
