| Author |
 Topic  |
|
|
Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
 Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 16:18:16
|
|
I am curious to see how you guys handle this often frustrating occurence. For example, if a PC has a 20 INT, he is super-smart. But the player is just a normal human with an average intelligence. In the game, the character should be capable of far more than the player. If the character encounters some sort of riddle or puzzle, he should be able to solve it with ease, but the player can't figure it out. How do you guys address that? Do you address it at all? Do you let the dice do the work?
|
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
|
|
|
Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 16:40:39
|
I make them give me as complete framework of an idea as they can. Such as put together a contraption to over come the trap. I then eliminate one potential problem for every +1 modifier of the stat.
such as anchoring the structure down so it doesn't slip. Using a tarp to make the material less slippery, looking up, make sure there isn't a second booby trap, etc.
The player should come up with the idea, and the character int should just eliminate a few of the problems they might incur that the player, who isn't there to see it all, doesn't comprehend. This makes the players work for a solution, and makes the story move on when they miss something simple.
If a player starts to abuse a stat, talk to him, and if there is no change in behaviour take his toy away. |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
 |
|
|
Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 19:23:18
|
quote:
Originally posted by Fletcher
If a player starts to abuse a stat, talk to him, and if there is no change in behaviour take his toy away.
It's not really a matter of players abusing stats. Part of the fun of the game (for us anyway) is to solve riddles and beat traps, but there are times when the players just can't figure out a riddle for instance, it never fails that I hear, "That's not fair, my character is way smarter than I am, he could figure this out easy." And this is a legitimate complaint. I mean, I couldn't swing a 15 pound sword all day, but my character can, why should mental abilities be treated differently? |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
|
|
|
|
Beowulf
Learned Scribe
Canada
322 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 19:27:29
|
Aye! While I enjoy more the role-playing aspect over the roll-playing and simple arithmatic aspect/s of the game, the question has always lingered, "hows does your average person with an IQ of 110 play a PC with an IQ of 180?".
In regards to puzzles, you might give him some hints to help approxiamte his characters intelligence, but don't forget that it is wisdom helps us pick up subtle nuances, and gives us insight into metaphor and such things that are often completely lost on the pure, unemotional logic that is triadtionally associated with intellect. Having a high IQ is no guarentee that Mr.Brainiac will "get" the joke ... or solve the riddle.
As a general rule of thumb I share an approximation of DM only information with them, ie. high INT/WIS pc's and npc's, to reflect their greater powers of reason, deduction, observation, et al.
|
"Ill tempered the wretch, who laughs at everyone. He cannot recognize, as he should, that he is not without faults." the High One, Poetic Edda |
|
|
|
Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 20:27:59
|
quote:
Originally posted by Beowulf
Aye! While I enjoy more the role-playing aspect over the roll-playing and simple arithmatic aspect/s of the game, the question has always lingered, "hows does your average person with an IQ of 110 play a PC with an IQ of 180?".
In regards to puzzles, you might give him some hints to help approxiamte his characters intelligence, but don't forget that it is wisdom helps us pick up subtle nuances, and gives us insight into metaphor and such things that are often completely lost on the pure, unemotional logic that is triadtionally associated with intellect. Having a high IQ is no guarentee that Mr.Brainiac will "get" the joke ... or solve the riddle.
As a general rule of thumb I share an approximation of DM only information with them, ie. high INT/WIS pc's and npc's, to reflect their greater powers of reason, deduction, observation, et al.
That's cool, like the riddle master in Elfsong, the simplest answer eluded him. Sharing DM only info is a good idea. I guess the conundrum is the roll-play vs role-play considerations. I want to encourage role-playing, but not if it will hurt the character to do so. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
|
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36977 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 22:56:38
|
| I usually play intelligent characters. One notable exception was my minotaur. Whenever I had an idea, I would ask myself if it was something he would be likely to come up with. If I wasn't sure, I would voluntarily make an Intelligence check. If I passed, I'd run with the idea. If I failed, I assumed he didn't come up with the idea. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Crennen FaerieBane
Master of Realmslore
USA
1378 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jun 2005 : 23:00:00
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I usually play intelligent characters. One notable exception was my minotaur. Whenever I had an idea, I would ask myself if it was something he would be likely to come up with. If I wasn't sure, I would voluntarily make an Intelligence check. If I passed, I'd run with the idea. If I failed, I assumed he didn't come up with the idea.
I did the same thing when I was forced by fiance (who needed me to sit in on a game she ran) to play an Ogre. Nothing is so demeaning as from going from an Archmage to playing an Ogre. Though I did make the Intelligence check to successfully add 7+8. 
C-Fb |
|
|
|
Antareana
Seeker
Germany
59 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 03:24:56
|
I like to play intelligent characters, too ^^
It isn't too hard with a bit help from the DM to play a fairly intelligent wizard or rogue if you have average intelligence ( with hints like "your logic tells you that x or y or z might be related to your problem") it is just like you should handle knowledge that the character, but not the player has access to.
I played a rather "simple minded" cleric of Chauntea once and it was not that bad. It is just that you want to bite your tongue when you need to solve a problem and have a good plan but it would be way too high for the character
but I think that many people overestimate Int 10 and underestimate Int 9... there should not be that much difference (and IMO int 10 isn't really good - if you look at the average human intelligence  ) |
It is all just a past and future secret
|
|
|
|
warlockco
Master of Realmslore
USA
1695 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 03:27:16
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I usually play intelligent characters. One notable exception was my minotaur. Whenever I had an idea, I would ask myself if it was something he would be likely to come up with. If I wasn't sure, I would voluntarily make an Intelligence check. If I passed, I'd run with the idea. If I failed, I assumed he didn't come up with the idea.
Friend of mine did that constantly with his Gully Dwarf
As to High Intelligence/Wisdom/Charisma Scores, I treat them as potential, just because someone has the potential to solve problems, be wise, or a good leader, doesn't mean they are always doing the part.
Alot of your really really smart people are also "stupid" in that they can answer questions about certain things, yet other things that alot of your everyday person could answer will stump them. (Course this is usually due to social stupidty as opposed to actual smartness) |
News of the Weird
D20 System Reference Document
D20 Modern System Reference Document
|
|
|
|
Forge
Learned Scribe
USA
218 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jun 2005 : 14:36:47
|
A few thoughts:
1) A high INT stat reflects a greater inherent intellectual capacity this is reflected in a few ways. First, you have higher total spell counts than others. Second, you have more skill points to spend on areas of esoteric and practical knowledge. Third, you have a greater chance of resisting effects targeted at your mind. These are all tangible benefits that are "hard-coded" into the game.
2)The DM should consider a high int much as he/she would consider the religeous/theological training of a cleric, or the "street-smarts" of a rogue. In some instances an INT check might yield tidbits that a hyper-intelligent person would put together whereas others wouldn't. (It's elementary my dear Watson...)
3) Albert Einstein was incredibly intelligent, far moreso than 99% of the human race. He also would get lost crossing the street and had a distinct problem relating to others who could/would not speak in a basis of numbers and theories. So there are no practical guarantees...
Forge |
|
|
|
Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 14:28:42
|
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I usually play intelligent characters. One notable exception was my minotaur. Whenever I had an idea, I would ask myself if it was something he would be likely to come up with. If I wasn't sure, I would voluntarily make an Intelligence check. If I passed, I'd run with the idea. If I failed, I assumed he didn't come up with the idea.
I sometimes enjoy playing a "dumb" character, it's rather liberating. I usually end up being forced into the "leader" role when I'm playing. It's hard for them to force a half-orc with a 6 INT into the leadership role. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
|
|
|
|
Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jun 2005 : 14:36:51
|
quote:
Originally posted by Forge
A few thoughts:
1) A high INT stat reflects a greater inherent intellectual capacity this is reflected in a few ways. First, you have higher total spell counts than others. Second, you have more skill points to spend on areas of esoteric and practical knowledge. Third, you have a greater chance of resisting effects targeted at your mind. These are all tangible benefits that are "hard-coded" into the game.
2)The DM should consider a high int much as he/she would consider the religeous/theological training of a cleric, or the "street-smarts" of a rogue. In some instances an INT check might yield tidbits that a hyper-intelligent person would put together whereas others wouldn't. (It's elementary my dear Watson...)
3) Albert Einstein was incredibly intelligent, far moreso than 99% of the human race. He also would get lost crossing the street and had a distinct problem relating to others who could/would not speak in a basis of numbers and theories. So there are no practical guarantees...
Forge
I think you're missing a key factor, Wisdom. Wisdom is what determines your resistance to mind-targeting spells (Will Save), and Wisdom is what lets a "street smart" rogue notice things (Spot and Listen), and Einstein is a perfect example of a characer with high INT and low WIS scores. The main reason the "mind" of the character gets two ability scores is because these two aspects of the mind are so different. |
War to slay, not to fight long and glorious.
Aermhar of the Tangletrees
Year of the Hooded Falcon
Xysma's Gallery
Guide to the Tomes and Tales of the Realms download from Candlekeep
Anthologies and Tales Overviews
Check out my custom action figures, hand-painted miniatures, gaming products, and other stuff on eBay.
|
|
|
|
SomeDude
Acolyte
USA
23 Posts |
Posted - 29 Jun 2005 : 05:15:20
|
Often in the game it's not all that important who solves the riddle but rather that it's been solved. A smart player with a not so smart character should still feel free to speak up in INT based challenges. In game, the credit should probably go to the party wizard (or other high INT PC), but out of game (like if the DM gives out bonus EXP) the crtedit still belongs to the player.
More relevent to the origional question, with 4 or so other players lending their insite to the riddle or puzzle (some of them may actually have an 18 INT in real life) but giving credit (in game) to the high INT PC it makes that character seem more smarter. |
This is the highest my post count has ever been. |
|
|
|
Vangelor
Learned Scribe
USA
183 Posts |
Posted - 30 Jun 2005 : 14:22:31
|
I generally wait to see what the players manage to come up with on their own, but if I think it is reasonable that a character would know something the player hasn't thought of, I freely use the "It occurs to you that..." method of hint or fact-dropping where it seems justified. Sometimes I will have a player roll first, or will roll for them, but I am also apt to just make the call on the fly, especially if it is something crucial to move the story in the direction I need it to go.
|
|
|
| |
Topic |
|
|
|
Differences in player and character intelligence
