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Feanor_Karnil
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Feb 2003 : 18:59:31
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Has anyone noticed that in the book Sojourn, the dragon Hephaestus that Drizzt encounters has the same name as the Greek God Hephaestus God of metalworking?
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Edited by - Alaundo on 11 Feb 2003 19:42:41
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2003 : 19:10:56
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Yeah, I did. Interesting name choice, no?
Oh, and he's also the patron of mining and anything to do with mechanics; maybe any sort of invention as well, though Prometheous might share that. Not sure . . . I've had a tendancy to stay away from the more classical aspects of mythology over the last few years. I spend more time on the nonhuman/nondivine creatures and spirits. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2003 : 19:11:27
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No. I have not. But it makes sense.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2003 : 19:30:06
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Why would it make sense? A red dragon isn't known for its metalworking skills. The only thing in common with Hephaestus (Vulcan in the Roman tradition) is that the dragon-Hephaestus could melt metal.
If you ask me, it's just a case of "Hey, let's through this name in, show how cultured we are!" (No disparagement on Salvatore intended, of course!)
Say, has anyone noticed anything else like that? I'm not counting gods here -- Tyr One-Hand is obvious (Norse), as well as several others. I'm talking about the names of non-divine creatures. I can't think of any right off the top of my head. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2003 : 19:42:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
Why would it make sense? A red dragon isn't known for its metalworking skills. The only thing in common with Hephaestus (Vulcan in the Roman tradition) is that the dragon-Hephaestus could melt metal.
An ordinary red dragon may not but this particular red dragon is, that is why so many people come to make use of its abilities in this field, which is my point.
quote:
If you ask me, it's just a case of "Hey, let's through this name in, show how cultured we are!" (No disparagement on Salvatore intended, of course!)
I disagree. I do not think they chose that name with the intention to impress people.
-Echon
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"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
Edited by - Echon on 11 Feb 2003 19:43:00 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2003 : 19:53:06
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[slaps forehead]
Oops. I forgot that little bit. Okay, I take it back. That IS a good name for a dragon, or anyway for a dragon in his line of "work." My appologies, Echon. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2003 : 20:04:55
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There is no need to apologize, this is an ordinary discussion. Apology accepted, anyway.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2003 : 20:18:52
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[shrugs] It's habit. I can sound pompous sometimes, when I'm not actually meaning to. I have to make such things clear every once in a while. Otherwise I end up like my father -- who's NEVER wrong, it seems. Even when he is . . . .  |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Ranaghar Tsaran
Learned Scribe
Poland
133 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2003 : 20:19:42
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| Yes, I've noticed it...I think that's a good name for this dragon, especially because Salvatore wrote, that he could melt even stone wall. |
"Do not be afraid of greatness. Some achieve greatness, some are born great, and some have greatness thrust upon them..." |
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Arion Elenim
Senior Scribe
933 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2003 : 05:25:15
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"They don't choose names to impress people"?
My good man....
Names are so VERRRRRY indicative of a character's personality....
The "Hephaestus" name was probably chosen first for it's fire/metalworking reference, but secondly because it is such a cool, long-winded dragon-like name...
Had the god the dragon was named after been Phil rather than Hephaestus, I think Salvatore would have chosen another name...
That said, names are vital to character. Haven't you ever read a novel with a character with a TERRIBLE name? I have, and it simply kills the work... |
My latest Realms-based short story, about a bard, a paladin of Lathander and the letter of the law, Debts Repaid. It takes place before the "shattering" and gives the bard Arion a last gasp before he plunges into the present.http://candlekeep.com/campaign/logs/log-debts.htm |
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Echon
Senior Scribe
Denmark
422 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2003 : 08:17:50
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I obviously failed to express myself clearly so I will elaborate on my previous post.
I very much agree in what you are saying regarding both names in general and regarding this red dragon and the Greek god. What I meant was not that Hephaestus is not an impressive name for a dragon but rather that it was not chosen in a if-we-go-for-this-name-maybe-people-will-realize-how-literarily-intelligent-we-are-kind-of-way.
I hope that makes sense.
-Echon |
"If others had not been foolish, we should be so."
-William Blake |
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colemangann
Acolyte
USA
1 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 06:29:16
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| the dragon also makes an appearance in "servant of the shard" and salvatore often makes names into a sort of "tell" about the character , anyone recall "Bigrin"? |
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BARDOBARBAROS
Senior Scribe
Greece
581 Posts |
Posted - 28 Mar 2008 : 06:41:42
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| Yes i've noticed it and i find it interesting... |
BARDOBARBAROS DOES NOT KILL.
HE DECAPITATES!!!
"The city changes, but the fools within it remain always the same" (Edwin Odesseiron- Baldur's gate 2) |
Edited by - BARDOBARBAROS on 28 Mar 2008 06:42:46 |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 29 Mar 2008 : 22:52:07
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quote:
Originally posted by Arion Elenim
"They don't choose names to impress people"?
My good man....
Names are so VERRRRRY indicative of a character's personality....
Quiz time!
What does Artemis Entreri have in common with the virgin Greek goddess of moonlight and hunting? (An absolutely tenuous connection with hunting and operating at night? Possibly, but reaching. Let's not even get started on the virgin goddess. Maybe Artemis crossdresses in his spare time?)
What does Prince Elbereth of Shilmistra have in common with the goddess (or equivalent of) of starlight from Tolkienverse? (Errr, Elbereth is the elven name for Varda? And er... uh. Maybe Prince Elbereth is secretly a transvestite? Suffering from a gender identity crisis? The world may never know.)
What does Guenhwyvar have in common with Queen Guenevere? (Note: Salvatore insists that the name means "shadow" or "phantom" in Welsh or so. Er, no. Not really. It means "fair/white child" or possibly "fair/white one." And we all know that Guen, being a panther, is very... white? Oh wait. Well, I guess Arthur's queen and the panther are both female!)
a) these names are given to these characters for a significant, symbolic, intelligent reason
b) these names are slapped on randomly without regard to their meanings or, in some cases, are a result of bad research or no research at all
c) there's no third option |
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Nimriel
Seeker
Sweden
51 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2008 : 10:40:07
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I've always thought Salvatore just looks in books/the net/whatever for names he finds cool. By the way, you do now you're quoting a post from 2003?
PS. I do like Salvatores books but not his names. |
Edited by - Nimriel on 30 Mar 2008 10:41:09 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 30 Mar 2008 : 15:00:16
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Ummm. . . names aren't exclusive.
Really.
I swear. |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 02:08:46
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quote:
Originally posted by Nimriel
I've always thought Salvatore just looks in books/the net/whatever for names he finds cool. By the way, you do now you're quoting a post from 2003?
Oh, right, I didn't notice, since someone performed thread necromancy.
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
Ummm. . . names aren't exclusive.
Really.
I swear.
But maaaybe, just maaaaybe, when you name your characters after prominent figures from well-known mythologies, you could perhaps put some thought into it due to the simple fact that most people would associate those names with - shock, horror and surprise! - the aforementioned prominent mythological figures? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 15:22:38
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| Yeah, the issue isn't that these names are exclusive, it's that they are ill-fitting. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 15:34:05
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And I'd say they're "ill-fitting" due to the baggage people put upon the name. Seriously, this is the path that leads to the elf named Alinthiolisious or some nonsense.
Personally, I'd love to see more names used more often. Say an Elminster who's the blacksmith for a small town. A Khelben who's not an archmage. An evil Drizzt, a good Artemis, etc etc
This is partially a selfish attempt to effect "naming" in games, because I'm awful at making up names (see above elf name) so I commonly run through a variety of books and write down the names. ;) |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 15:54:48
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
Personally, I'd love to see more names used more often. Say an Elminster who's the blacksmith for a small town. A Khelben who's not an archmage. An evil Drizzt, a good Artemis, etc etc
That seems likely (I've mentioned before that "Drizzt" could very well be a very common drow name, like the "John" of the Underdark), but think of all the readers, players, and fans who would be confused by it (ie. "I just came across Elminster in X novel...moonlighting as a blacksmith! Who would have thought?"). I can see myself having to correct people constantly. *shudders*
quote:
This is partially a selfish attempt to effect "naming" in games, because I'm awful at making up names (see above elf name) so I commonly run through a variety of books and write down the names. ;)
I have fun using name generators--even if one doesn't like the names that get pumped out, they're good for ideas, and you can tweak the names a bit. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 17:03:44
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
That seems likely (I've mentioned before that "Drizzt" could very well be a very common drow name, like the "John" of the Underdark), but think of all the readers, players, and fans who would be confused by it (ie. "I just came across Elminster in X novel...moonlighting as a blacksmith! Who would have thought?"). I can see myself having to correct people constantly. *shudders*
Oh, I certainly understand and I imagine there would have to be correction until it became the default. "Elminster? Do you mean the Sage? Or one of the other ones?"
I tend to have a hard time suspending my disbelief when there's just one character named this or that and the names are then suspended from the rest of the published fiction because it's the name of something else. One of my pet peeves. 
quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I have fun using name generators--even if one doesn't like the names that get pumped out, they're good for ideas, and you can tweak the names a bit.
Yeah, I've run with that a little, haven't taken a look at name generators in a while though. I've got pages of a notebook with names listed and I generally pull from that. It gets a little tough when my players go "Oh dude, you just loaned me a book with that character in it!"
Then I get all red faced n go "Well, it's a damned good name!"  |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 19:47:33
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quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
And I'd say they're "ill-fitting" due to the baggage people put upon the name.
Is it really "baggage people put upon the name" when these names happen to belong to mythologies and literature far more enduring, more prominent, and all around larger than anything the FR author in question will ever write? There's homage and the occasional one or two names tossed in here, and that's fine. But when an author liberally peppers his works with loaded names, it starts to look farcical.
How would you feel about a Realms novel featuring Napoleon Bonaparte the milkmaid, Romeo Montague the sorceress, Will Shakespeare the mighty barbarian warrior, and Gilgamesh the priestess of Sune? Maybe there should've been a rebel leader named Maximilien Robespierre in the history of Cormyr? Oh, maybe I'll write a tired, hackneyed classical fantasy with a good-and-evil conflict featuring the chosen one Jesus and his adversary Lucifer! When someone reads it and points out that I'm writing horribly obvious allegory or that those are amazingly stupid choices of names, I'll tell them no and whine that it's all their fault for attaching biblical associations to the names, and oh my god, names aren't exclusive you know. Right? Right!
quote:
Seriously, this is the path that leads to the elf named Alinthiolisious or some nonsense.
I'm sure there's a middle ground. Of course, in this case, when the author's not borrowing names from better writers left and right, he goes off the deep end and regales us with a Muffinhead, a Catti-cheese, a Dagnabbit, and similar delights. (To be sure, I imagine some readers find these names terribly clever or the very zenith of scintillating wit, so perhaps for some people it works. I wouldn't want to talk to or associate with these people, but such is life.) |
Edited by - Karzak on 31 Mar 2008 20:07:58 |
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ShadezofDis
Senior Scribe
402 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 21:35:22
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quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
Is it really "baggage people put upon the name" when these names happen to belong to mythologies and literature far more enduring, more prominent, and all around larger than anything the FR author in question will ever write? There's homage and the occasional one or two names tossed in here, and that's fine. But when an author liberally peppers his works with loaded names, it starts to look farcical.
Starts to look farcical to you, because you associate the names with something other than the story you are reading. That's the exact baggage I'm talking about.
quote:
Originally posted by KarzakHow would you feel about a Realms novel featuring Napoleon Bonaparte the milkmaid, Romeo Montague the sorceress, Will Shakespeare the mighty barbarian warrior, and Gilgamesh the priestess of Sune? Maybe there should've been a rebel leader named Maximilien Robespierre in the history of Cormyr? Oh, maybe I'll write a tired, hackneyed classical fantasy with a good-and-evil conflict featuring the chosen one Jesus and his adversary Lucifer! When someone reads it and points out that I'm writing horribly obvious allegory or that those are amazingly stupid choices of names, I'll tell them no and whine that it's all their fault for attaching biblical associations to the names, and oh my god, names aren't exclusive you know. Right? Right!
There is a difference between using names and lifting a story directly. If there's a character named Jesus in a story then that's fine. If the author writes a thinly veiled biblical myth then that's a totally different situation. One would want to avoid using the characters, one would just use the name for a completely different character.
quote:
Originally posted by Karzak
I'm sure there's a middle ground.
For how long? Sure there are a lot of names but they get crossed off pretty fast as more novels, source books, etc come out.
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 21:45:42
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So you'd be fine with the following: a Realms novel featuring Napoleon Bonaparte the milkmaid, Romeo Montague the sorceress, Will Shakespeare the mighty barbarian warrior, and Gilgamesh the priestess of Sune and a rebel leader named Maximilien Robespierre in the history of Cormyr? You would also be fine, presumably, with a wood elven princess named Obama Barack and a dwarf blacksmith named Paris Hilton. Okay.
Somehow, I suspect you belong to a very tiny minority. And perhaps there is a reason for it.
quote:
Originally posted by ShadezofDis
Starts to look farcical to you, because you associate the names with something other than the story you are reading. That's the exact baggage I'm talking about.
Is the concept of names having meanings and associations - and thus a good author should be careful when using established ones - completely foreign to you, then? Well, unless you think Salvatore is not a good author and therefore this whole thing doesn't apply. Oh, do you also think people who take offense at racial slurs are somehow at fault because they also "put baggage on" those words? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36876 Posts |
Posted - 31 Mar 2008 : 23:08:35
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Alright, let's dial back the negativity somewhat, folks. I don't want to have to close this thread.  |
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I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2008 : 15:05:34
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| I especially enjoyed the "CCC" in The Orc King, the group of racist activists in black robes and hoods. :-p |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Karzak
Learned Scribe
196 Posts |
Posted - 01 Apr 2008 : 17:02:57
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| Yes, that one was absolutely subtle. Sledgehammer-subtle. Salvatore is such an edgy writer. |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 29 Apr 2008 : 16:35:36
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Re: purpose-in-naming.
Gender and worlds-realm aside, Prince Elbereth's name foreshadowed his use of, IIRC, a high-magic ritual named Starlight upon the People (but in Irish), right?
I have nothing to add in defense of Artemis or Gwenhwyvar, though. I held my breath the first few novels in fear of a furry-subplot (e.g. Gwen, the love of Drizzt's life betrays him with Regis and they return to rule Ten Towns).
Powers-that-be be praised she's just named after RAS' family pet.  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 01:30:53
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Powers-that-be be praised she's just named after RAS' family pet.
I figured it was the other way around--the pet was named after the character. The character is 20 years old, and it's uncommon (though not unheard of) for a cat to live to be that old.
Although, perhaps RAS has had more than one cat named Guenhwyvar? Who knows. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 30 Apr 2008 01:31:20 |
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monknwildcat
Learned Scribe
USA
285 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 01:54:36
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Good point! My sister had several cats named Heidi growing up. We lived on a busy road....
Is there a Gwen around today? Or she the the pet 20 years ago? Inquiring minds wanna know.  |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 Apr 2008 : 02:17:03
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quote:
Originally posted by monknwildcat
Good point! My sister had several cats named Heidi growing up. We lived on a busy road....
Is there a Gwen around today? Or she the the pet 20 years ago? Inquiring minds wanna know.
I guess email RAS and see what he says. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Sojourn
