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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
 Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 18:24:10
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I have two questions actually. The answer to the first may give me the answer to the second but I'll ask it anyway...
1) Can a Half-Dragon be raised as a dracolich or a regular lich? I know regular liches have a caster level requirement so that is pretty much out the window for most half-dragons but as far as I know there is no caster level requirement for a dracolich.
2) Would the Cult of the Dragon be interested in a Half-Dragon? Are they also "Sacred Ones"?
Thanks in advance.
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Fletcher
Learned Scribe
USA
299 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 20:25:10
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As half dragons have the dragon subtype, I don't see why it can't become a dracolich.
I can see the attitudes about whether or not the Half-Dragon was a Sacred One. But i would say that they would show it great honor at the very least for being a child of a Sacred One. If a small sect couldn't find a real dragon to give the gift of undeath to, they would see it as an achievement to give the gift to a draconic bretheren. Especially if it were half chromatic. |
Run faster! The Kobolds are catching up! |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 22:35:20
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| I guess they get the best of both worlds, as lich is a template that can only be assigned to humanoids. So could they choose to be either darcoliches or regular liches? |
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Archwizard
Learned Scribe
USA
266 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 23:10:16
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| Champions of Ruin has a Cult of the Dragon member who is a half-dragon, Vargo Kent. His relationship with the cult seems nonstandard though. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 16 Jan 2006 : 23:13:37
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| I'd not allow half-dragons to become dracoliches... To me, this violates the essence of what makes dracoliches special. I'd allow half-dragons to become any form of undead that other humanoids can become, but not dracoliches. |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 00:06:59
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| I guess you're right Wooly, as half-dragon is also a template applied to humanoids, so that still makes a half-dragon a humanoid and not a dragon? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 00:51:36
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
I guess you're right Wooly, as half-dragon is also a template applied to humanoids, so that still makes a half-dragon a humanoid and not a dragon?
That's how I see it... Birthed from a humanoid, walks like a humanoid, talks like a humanoid, tells "dumb goblin" jokes like a humanoid, it's a humanoid -- regardless of subtype. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 01:10:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
... Birthed from a humanoid...
I don't know if you're speaking figuratively or literally so I have to ask...
Does a half-dragon have to be born from the humanoid parent or can the Dragon give birth to the halfbreed? |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 02:14:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
... Birthed from a humanoid...
I don't know if you're speaking figuratively or literally so I have to ask...
Does a half-dragon have to be born from the humanoid parent or can the Dragon give birth to the halfbreed?
Well, technically, just about any kind of critter can be a half-dragon. But, whenever it occurs, it's usually because a dragon took the shape of another species, got something pregnant, and then went about it's way. I don't know of anything that explicitly states dragons can bear half-dragons, but at the same time, I don't know of any cases where a dragon did birth a crossbreed.
Most half-dragons that I can think of are from a humanoid mother and a draconic father. |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 02:44:34
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The reason I asked this question originally is because in the game I am running I plan on having the PC's meet up with a half-dragon who's mother is a dragon and father was an elf.
If somebody would please let me know if this is breaking any rules than I would be greatful. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 03:26:47
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I don't know that its breaking any rules. I would say it might be interesting to note that if she got pregnant in humanoid form, to bring the child to bear, she may have needed to stay in humanoid form for the duration, lest she harm the child (i.e. her internal organs were situated to accomodate a humanoid child growing with a birth sack, umbilical cord, etc, and shifting to a body that is built to accomodate laying eggs likely wouldn't to the child much good).
Oh, and I would vote no on the dracolich for a half-dragon as well. Also, I think that the cult does distinguish between full blooded true dragons and creatures that are "dragon-kin." The Year of Rogue Dragons books seem to indicate that Sammaster may have used drakes and other similar creatures as test subjects before using spells and processess on true dragons. At least that how it seemed to me. |
Edited by - KnightErrantJR on 17 Jan 2006 03:29:04 |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 03:50:19
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Also, I think that the cult does distinguish between full blooded true dragons and creatures that are "dragon-kin." The Year of Rogue Dragons books seem to indicate that Sammaster may have used drakes and other similar creatures as test subjects before using spells and processess on true dragons. At least that how it seemed to me.
Yeah, and as I recall, the dragon-kin that were in Queen of the Depths were merely being used as grunts, not anything special. |
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Shadovar
Senior Scribe
785 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 11:53:00
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
I have two questions actually. The answer to the first may give me the answer to the second but I'll ask it anyway...
1) Can a Half-Dragon be raised as a dracolich or a regular lich? I know regular liches have a caster level requirement so that is pretty much out the window for most half-dragons but as far as I know there is no caster level requirement for a dracolich.
2) Would the Cult of the Dragon be interested in a Half-Dragon? Are they also "Sacred Ones"?
Thanks in advance.
1) I doubt half-wyrms can become dracoliches, for IMO, i think half-wyrms lack the true killing power and cunning intellect of a real wyrm, not to mention the massive bulk needed for physical intimidation of smaller folk, so it seems they are below the requirements for a true dracolich. Maybe they can adopt transformation into a lich if they are well-educated enough and smart enough in the arcane arts.
2) The term "Sacred Ones" are unlikely to be applied to half-wyrms, for they are more for true wyrms that had become a dracolich. For half-wyrms that are of low intellect and with no affinity for arcane arts or alchemy or possess any useful in demand skills would more likely end up as fodder for fighting or food to serve to the Sacred Ones.
quote:
The reason I asked this question originally is because in the game I am running I plan on having the PC's meet up with a half-dragon who's mother is a dragon and father was an elf.
If somebody would please let me know if this is breaking any rules than I would be greatful
Uh...I don't think there is any violation of the rules, but might as well consider if the wyrm wants to bear her child through the humanoid style or the wyrm style. |
We have fostered trust, recruited loyalty, and gathered the faithful. We have trained thousands. Our legions can cover the land, fill the sky and travel through the darkness. We can hunt any and all that would deny our heritage. Now is our time, now is the time of the Dark Reign(Rain) of the Empire of Shadows.
- High Prince Telemont Tanthul, Lord Shadow
In a speech given to the citizens of Shade Enclave
At the celebration of the Shinantra Battle victory when he revealed that he was THE Lord Shadow of legend. |
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Eremite
Learned Scribe
Singapore
182 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 13:13:59
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Sure, a half-dragon meets the requirements to become a dracolich. Of course, such an individual might be seen as a blasphemous affront to the true "Sacred Ones" and thus become a target of the Cult of the Dragon for destruction... particular if the particular half-dragon stole the ritual from the Cult in the first place.
BTW, Libris Mortis officially allows the lich template to be added to other creatures. Personally, I add whatever template makes sense to whatever creature. As long as the players earn the appropriate amount of XP, and we're all having fun, who really cares?
Hmmm, anyone want to see my corrupted feral fiendish advanced worg beast of Bane? ;) |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 13:37:23
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I guess I'll give the whole story...
The party is unknowingly working with a couple of Cultists.
They are being accompanied by a cultist in an adventure to find a lair that supposedly contains the body of a slain dragon. The Cultists offered to the party all of the Dragon's horde as long as they help find the lair, protect the cultist, and allow the cultist to keep the dragon's body as a "trophy".
The cultist traveling with the party is a 9th level rogue and doesn't hold particularly high rank so he wouldn't know the ins and outs of the situation either. He's actually the cohort of a higher level cult wizard with the leadersip feat.
But, my plan is to have the body of the dragon be gone already (future plot line) but the lair protected by the half-dragon child of the aformentioned slain dragon. I have no doubt that the party will kill the Half-Dragon. So, would the cultist be interested in the half-dragon's body to bring back to his superiors? |
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Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 14:25:56
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In that particular case I think they would be interested in the half-dragons body.
Probably not out of any respect but more because it could be a key link in finding the true dragons corpse |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 15:23:38
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| Great. Thanks. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 17:14:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
In that particular case I think they would be interested in the half-dragons body.
Probably not out of any respect but more because it could be a key link in finding the true dragons corpse
The Cult might be interested in keeping the half-dragon alive, just to get the information from him. Otherwise, I concur. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 17:17:40
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
I guess I'll give the whole story...
The party is unknowingly working with a couple of Cultists.
They are being accompanied by a cultist in an adventure to find a lair that supposedly contains the body of a slain dragon. The Cultists offered to the party all of the Dragon's horde as long as they help find the lair, protect the cultist, and allow the cultist to keep the dragon's body as a "trophy".
The cultist traveling with the party is a 9th level rogue and doesn't hold particularly high rank so he wouldn't know the ins and outs of the situation either. He's actually the cohort of a higher level cult wizard with the leadersip feat.
But, my plan is to have the body of the dragon be gone already (future plot line) but the lair protected by the half-dragon child of the aformentioned slain dragon. I have no doubt that the party will kill the Half-Dragon. So, would the cultist be interested in the half-dragon's body to bring back to his superiors?
One problem: how did the Cult plan to give away all of the treasure, and then have a happy dracolich? I know that if I was a dragon, I'd be quite displeased with someone giving away my hoard... |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 18:14:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One problem: how did the Cult plan to give away all of the treasure, and then have a happy dracolich? I know that if I was a dragon, I'd be quite displeased with someone giving away my hoard...
The dragon will be dead when it's horde is "stolen". It would not need to know that the Cultist gave it away. Plus, if the dragon ever did find out that it was the party than i would have another villain into the campaign... and one the PC's helped create.
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 21:41:41
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quote:
Originally posted by Chosen of Bane
quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
One problem: how did the Cult plan to give away all of the treasure, and then have a happy dracolich? I know that if I was a dragon, I'd be quite displeased with someone giving away my hoard...
The dragon will be dead when it's horde is "stolen". It would not need to know that the Cultist gave it away. Plus, if the dragon ever did find out that it was the party than i would have another villain into the campaign... and one the PC's helped create.
Yeah, but that dragon's first priority will be to recover its treasure. If it finds out the Cult gave it away, it'll turn on them in a heartbeat. Even if it doesn't find out, it's going to want to be active, immediately, in order to regain the hoard. So the newly-arisen dracolich will be angry, and wanting to replace the hoard now, if not sooner. Since the Cult usually urges its Sacred Ones to maintain a low profile, this is going to cause a problem.
Besides, the Cult regularly adds to the hoards of dragons it's trying to win over. Why, when that is their SOP, are they going to casually give away that kind of resources? |
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Chosen of Bane
Senior Scribe
USA
552 Posts |
Posted - 17 Jan 2006 : 23:48:27
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Well, firstly, the Cultists could be dishonorable with their dealings with the PC's and try to acquire the treasure for their own once the PC's find the lair. Nobody says they have to be faithful in their dealings.
Also, if the dracolich wants to get his treasure back ASAP the Wearer of Purple could always hold him in thrall, either by controlling it's phylactery or using the Rebuke Sacred Ones ability granted by the Wearer of Purple PrC in order to get the Dracolich to lay low for a while.
Most importantly... as I mentioned before. The dragon's body will not be there and the cultists will not get their hands on it from this adventure.
Right now I plan on having the rogue cultist that is adventuring with the party retrieve the body of the half-dragon and bring it back to his master (Wearer of Purple). What he does with the body from there is yet to be decided since I am going with the consensus that a Half-Dragon would not be raised as a Dracolich.
Thanks to all who gave input into this discussion. |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12022 Posts |
Posted - 19 Jan 2006 : 19:53:11
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The creature's type changes to dragon. Therefore, yes it can be a dracolich.
If you check out wizard's web site, I want to say there was also an example of this in their fight club or something. It was either that or a dragonman from monsters of faerun, but it was a dracolich "whatever race" priest of tiamat. If you want to save some time in NPC generation, might be worth looking up in their archives. |
Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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ferratus
Acolyte
11 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 17:56:42
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| I seem to remember reading that the Cult of the Dragon made dracoliches out of other creatures besides the standard 5 chromatics, including things such as drakes, wyverns and other dragon-kin. Now, these would probably wouldn't be worshipped, but they would make much more pliable tools. As a CE organization, with half of its members merely pragmatists out to grab as much treasure as they can get, I don't imagine that a few cells wouldn't balk at making dracoliches out of half-dragons. Especially if a half-dragon wearer of the purple in the Cult of the Dragon sees it as a way to become a sacred one himself. |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 23:21:32
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| I just looked at the FRCS. The monster entry for dragons repeatedly specifies "evil dragons". It does not say "anything with a dragon subtype" or "any draconic race". It says "evil dragons". That's pretty clear-cut to me: if it's not a true dragon and it's a lich, it's not a dracolich. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 31 Jan 2006 : 23:46:01
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
I just looked at the FRCS. The monster entry for dragons repeatedly specifies "evil dragons". It does not say "anything with a dragon subtype" or "any draconic race". It says "evil dragons". That's pretty clear-cut to me: if it's not a true dragon and it's a lich, it's not a dracolich.
This is *really* arguable. The current text(page 148 of Draconomicon) states that only evil dragons may have the template applied to them. The meaning of that is any creature with the dragon type and of evil alignment. However, the next line and many of the SA/SQ entries *highly* suggest a true dragon---that is, one that advances by age categories. *shrugs* |
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George Krashos
Master of Realmslore
Australia
6680 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2006 : 01:51:01
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My Realms would only have true dragons able to become dracolichs. I'm with Wooly here (and it's all nice and furry/snuggly ...  ).
-- George Krashos
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"Because only we, contrary to the barbarians, never count the enemy in battle." -- Aeschylus |
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Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36878 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2006 : 02:21:44
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quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
My Realms would only have true dragons able to become dracolichs. I'm with Wooly here (and it's all nice and furry/snuggly ... ).
-- George Krashos
Just watch where you put your hands...   |
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Dargoth
Great Reader
Australia
4607 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2006 : 02:29:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Wooly Rupert
quote:
Originally posted by George Krashos
My Realms would only have true dragons able to become dracolichs. I'm with Wooly here (and it's all nice and furry/snuggly ... ).
-- George Krashos
Just watch where you put your hands...
Yes George your likely to catch fleas and Lice!  |
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Emperor Sigismund
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2006 : 02:44:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
This is *really* arguable. The current text(page 148 of Draconomicon) states that only evil dragons may have the template applied to them. The meaning of that is any creature with the dragon type and of evil alignment. However, the next line and many of the SA/SQ entries *highly* suggest a true dragon---that is, one that advances by age categories. *shrugs*
From a D&D perspective perhaps... and if you utilise the D&D core books regularly in your FR campaigns. From a strictly FR point of view though, the facts in the FRCS hold true, and are the only basis in my FR campaigns regarding the creation of dracoliches from true dragons.
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2006 : 04:55:19
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quote:
Originally posted by The Sage
From a D&D perspective perhaps... and if you utilise the D&D core books regularly in your FR campaigns. From a strictly FR point of view though, the facts in the FRCS hold true, and are the only basis in my FR campaigns regarding the creation of dracoliches from true dragons.
Yes.
As always, I'm just here providing the up to date rules information. |
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Cult of the Dragon - Half-Dragon
