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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
 Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 18:02:33
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I asked this in the "Top 50 Spellcasters "Alive" in Faerun thread but it got lost so I'll ask here...
If I remember right the Simbul in 2E was the most powerful mortal spellcaster (she was a 29th-30th lv mage, even higher than Elminster) except perhaps for the phaerimm and the elder sharn...now in 3E it seems she hardly stacks up...heck, she has held back all of Thay single-handedly! 
what happened to the Simbul canon?
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4704 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 18:46:03
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What happened to canon is new lore replaces old lore.
The real question should be why canon changed, however often questions like that remain unanswered. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 18:54:26
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| Nothing happened. The game writeups are just approximations to the Realms reality by the current designers, not to be taken as Realms reality in and of themselves. Realmslore proper is silent on the daft, unanswerable question of 'who's the most powerful'. |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 19:00:11
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What happened is that we discover that some of the old netherese are in the Realms, yet (Iolaum, Teraseer, Telamont "Iīm a planar aberration" Thantul").
Larloch, the Necroqysar and the Shrinshee was always there, too. Only vere well hidden, but they are there. 
I donīt know where the Keeper, Ythazz Buvaar and the rashemi Icelia are stated, son I cannot speak for them.
These (and Elminster) are the ones that are more powerful than Simbul (speaking in terms of CR). Six of them are very aceptable, and I need to know more about the last three to speak more. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4704 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 19:07:39
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| There can be another answer as well, some spell casters are more active then others thus gain levels quicker (or gain in knowledge if you want to stay away from game terms). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 19:24:43
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All I am saying is logically (and I know how ironic the word "logically" is now concerning 2E/3E canon) if you converted a 2E character to a 3E character it's relative power level (CR, in 3E mechanics)would stay the same...and this cannot be a simple "20th lv mage to 20th lv wizard" conversion...anyone with experience with 2E and 3E rules would see (with feats and PrCs) that that simple conversion doesn't really work...
if the Simbul is two levels worth of power above Elminster in 2E than so should she be in 3E...unless there is a locical explaination (there is that word again) like level drain or XP loss from magical item creation...
I know there were other spellcasters more powerful than the Simbul or Elminster (the Netheril box set and Cormanthyr points that out) but It would be interesting to see what the levels of these characters were in 2E and compare it to the Simbul. If anything all the above named super casters should have been developed in 2E rules and then converted...
Afterall in the novel and game canon the Simbul is supposed to be a bad a$$ and every one has to walk carefully around her (especially since her "simbul" metamagic spells were almost unique...
so it should have been a very simple (logical *cough*) conversion from 2E to 3E for all these characters and all the canon conflict would have been avoided...
And my answer to why that canon was changed? I think it is due to the game getting more and more cheesy (to attract munchkin players [so their characters can kill the super baddies] and to justify the more and more extreme novel plot lines) with these "super" characters popping up here and there...soon you won't be able to throw a rock without hitting a epic/near-epic character...soon there will be a new organization in the Realms a la The Justice League of Faerun  |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 20:14:44
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| I very much doubt the discrepancy was intended as an intentional retcon or to represent otherwise unrevealed events, but if you want to be sure, ask Sean Reynolds or the other people who did the conversions. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 20:34:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
I very much doubt the discrepancy was intended as an intentional retcon or to represent otherwise unrevealed events, but if you want to be sure, ask Sean Reynolds or the other people who did the conversions.
yeah, I think you are right about an intentional retcon...I imagine it is more about trying to keep up with the continually evolving core mechanics, options and canon...that the 3.0 NPS from the beginning have not adapted (stats wise) to the ever-growing crunch that is being published
though the unrevealed events...that wouldnt surprise me if that was going on...
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Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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Neriandal Freit
Senior Scribe
USA
396 Posts |
Posted - 15 Aug 2006 : 21:45:14
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Never judge a realms character by his or her stats. Like Ed says, each of them has their best, each of them has their worst.
Ed also said one of the things in my quotes too ;) |
"Eating people is wrong...unless it's on the first date." - Ed Greenwood, GenCon Indy 2006 |
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Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 02:24:15
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| The short answer is, if you don't think she's powerful enough, increase her level (or if you don't care for such things, make her more 'untouchable' in the way Larloch was desgined to be. I agree that she doesn't quite cut it, so personally I'd bump her level up and probably rearrange her build too (not that I can think of any situation where I'd actually have her needing to be fully statted to fight in combat). |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 02:46:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Neriandal Freit
Never judge a realms character by his or her stats. Like Ed says, each of them has their best, each of them has their worst.
Ed also said one of the things in my quotes too ;)
True, and also, characters with higher challenge ratings are not always stronger. the Simbul still has more caster levels than El anyway.
The whole CR system is just meant to be a guideline, not an absolute definition of power. For example, El has the same challenge rating as Malystryx(from DL), but I would think that a 450 foot long great dragon would be more of a challenge than lil.old Elminster
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"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 02:47:28
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| Probably. El isn't made to be a battle mage. He uses information, lore, cunning, wit, and sarcasm to get by. ;) |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 02:56:07
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
Probably. El isn't made to be a battle mage. He uses information, lore, cunning, wit, and sarcasm to get by. ;)
El, I just gotta get an epic melee guy with high SR and its over.
Malys, it will take a lot longer and if you don't have high fire resistance, SR and fear immunity you are toast. |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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Aes Tryl
Learned Scribe
181 Posts |
Posted - 16 Aug 2006 : 04:23:21
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| Moreover this could be another fine example of WOTC intervention, like the way Larloch got nerfed despit Ed saying that he has 46 level, but one thing about the Simbuls build really bugs me and persuades me to add on more levels to her to justify her "best spellcaster alive in the realms tag" is her level distribution, Sorceror 20/ Wizard 10/ Archmage 2. The wizard levels are kinda useless. . . so it kinda screw up a few things. . . the say the least |
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Sorrow
Acolyte
USA
2 Posts |
Posted - 18 Aug 2006 : 15:20:58
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FridayThe13th- Having an Epic melee guy is nice, ok more than nice. High SR is always a good thing. But how is that high SR and +7 weapon going to help you crawl out from under the Wall of Iron that just tipped over on you?
Aes Tryl- The wizard levels expand her possible spells 10fold. With a straight sorceror you are stuck with what you know. With Sor/Wiz a character can experiment with spells to pick the ones she would find most usefull. She can't cast Wish constantly to change her repertoire. Her wizard levels give her the ability to pull out suprises, and suprises are the reason she is the Archmage you don't want to duel. |
Edited by - Sorrow on 18 Aug 2006 15:22:14 |
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FridayThe13th
Learned Scribe
USA
132 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 02:38:15
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quote:
Originally posted by Sorrow
FridayThe13th- Having an Epic melee guy is nice, ok more than nice. High SR is always a good thing. But how is that high SR and +7 weapon going to help you crawl out from under the Wall of Iron that just tipped over on you?
Aes Tryl- The wizard levels expand her possible spells 10fold. With a straight sorceror you are stuck with what you know. With Sor/Wiz a character can experiment with spells to pick the ones she would find most usefull. She can't cast Wish constantly to change her repertoire. Her wizard levels give her the ability to pull out suprises, and suprises are the reason she is the Archmage you don't want to duel.
And how is El going to cast that wall of Iron when he is getting marooned by that weapon which is disrupting his spells. Oh, and he only has 200 and something HP... |
"The Lady of Pain? You mean Loviatar runs this place?"
-- Torilian Prime
"You guys should seriously rename yourselves The Horny Society, you popularity would soar."
-- A miscillaneous Kender to a member of the Horned Society
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 03:28:42
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quote:
And how is El going to cast that wall of Iron when he is getting marooned by that weapon which is disrupting his spells. Oh, and he only has 200 and something HP...
Elminster's Evasion; Greater Blink; Contingent Wall of Force; Foresight.
Really, high level spellcasters are simply not beatable by non-spellcasters, unless they have some REALLY REALLY ridiculously powerful magical items, and even then, not often. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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sleyvas
Skilled Spell Strategist
USA
12229 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 03:54:38
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<<I donīt know where the Keeper, Ythazz Buvaar and the rashemi Icelia are stated, son I <<cannot speak for them.
Ythazz Buvaar is statted simply as a demi-lich right now below Bezantur in Spellbound. However, its stated in that resource that he's looking to regain a complete body again. Its kind of odd, because after developing Myrddin Viligoth, Ythazz Buvarr is the next red wizard I have on my list of "to be statted and history written". I believe that in the last few years, he was successful in endeavours to return. I just think that would throw a nice little monkey wrench into Thay's politics.
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Alavairthae, may your skill prevail
Phillip aka Sleyvas |
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GothicDan
Master of Realmslore
USA
1103 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 04:53:15
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| Mmm, Ythazz Buvaar. |
Planescape Fanatic
"Fiends and Undead are the peanut butter and jelly of evil." - Me
"That attitude should be stomped on, whenever and wherever it's encountered, because it makes people holding such views bad citizens, not just bad roleplayers (considering D&D was structured as a 'forced cooperation' game, and although successive editions are pointing it more and more towards a me-first, min-max game, the drift away from 'we all need each other to succeed' will at some point make it 'no longer' D&D)." - ED GREENWOOD |
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Xysma
Master of Realmslore
USA
1089 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 05:25:24
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quote:
Originally posted by GothicDan
quote:
And how is El going to cast that wall of Iron when he is getting marooned by that weapon which is disrupting his spells. Oh, and he only has 200 and something HP...
Elminster's Evasion; Greater Blink; Contingent Wall of Force; Foresight.
Really, high level spellcasters are simply not beatable by non-spellcasters, unless they have some REALLY REALLY ridiculously powerful magical items, and even then, not often.
As someone who plays mostly fighter types and can make a great fighter, I have to say I agree wholeheartedly with GothicDan. My best fighter on his best day would not have a chance against Elminster. |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 19 Aug 2006 : 23:52:39
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| Hm, we seem to be drifting a bit away from the Simbul and her relative power level here . . . |
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ode904
Learned Scribe
Finland
193 Posts |
Posted - 20 Aug 2006 : 21:37:33
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The Simbul is quite powerful as you can read from the short story from Realms of the Elves. I don't want post any ''spoilers'', so read that yourself. Yeah, simbul is mage i wouldn't like to duel:)... Elminster has few bonus protections
(GothicDan:)''Elminster's Evasion; Greater Blink; Contingent Wall of Force; Foresight''. But simbul is more powerful in a spell battle in open field than Elminster. And those levels... They really are just guidelines, especially when talking about such realms heroes as elminster or simbul. Two levels lower or higher, do not care! If there's a difference of ten levels or something, it tells you a little then:D... |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2006 : 09:09:24
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
I asked this in the "Top 50 Spellcasters "Alive" in Faerun thread but it got lost so I'll ask here...
If I remember right the Simbul in 2E was the most powerful mortal spellcaster (she was a 29th-30th lv mage, even higher than Elminster) except perhaps for the phaerimm and the elder sharn...now in 3E it seems she hardly stacks up...heck, she has held back all of Thay single-handedly!
what happened to the Simbul canon?
Very little has happened to the Simbul, aside from becoming Sor20/Acm2/Wiz10 instead of say a Wiz30.
The Simbul has more arcane spellcasting class levels then all the NPCs given stat blocks in the FRCS. In terms of sourcebooks published since the FRCS, there are several beings who cast arcane spells and outdistance her in the CR department..most of whom are either ancient dragons (Daurgothoth, Inferno, Tchazzar), ancient arcanists (Qysar Shoon), or ancient arcanists who became monstrous beings that could also innate cast arcane spells (like Ioulaum). For the most part, most of these beings are too isolated or removed from Faerun as a whole, and as such they rarely enter into discussions among sages over those mighty in the ways of the Art.
As for her other contemporaries;
Larloch- he statically exceeds her only by virtue of his ridiculous equipment listing, which includes magic items that blow the roof off in terms of game balance (+5 stone of good luck as a slotless ioun stone...?!?!) and total wealth that exceeds even that of a PC of his level. Meanwhile, while Elminster, Khelben, and the Simbul were all denied their full due in ability score adjustment points, whilst Larloch managed to pull an extra +3 INT out of nowhere...in addition to being one of the only mages in Faerun who actually has a +INT magic item (gasp). Give the Simbul a fraction of his wealth, which she could easily exceed with a fraction of the tax revenue from being Queen of Aglarond, combined with her full due in ability score adjustment points, and she could outmatch him quite easily.
Aumvor- while his equipment is equitable for his level, his stat block gives him other unfair advantages over the Simbul's for two important reasons. The first being that it wasnt created under the rules, specifically for epic advancement in a class, which in turn allowed him to have the maximum levels in both the archmage and the netherese arcanist without actually being able to meet their prerequisites when he entered them. I.E. there is no such thing as "epic wizard 7", you add them to your non-epic wizard levels, and THEN determine when you recieve bonus epic feats from your class. Meanwhile, his other trump card is that his stat block was made after tons of additional material was released and WoTC decided you can reference other books besides the PHB and the FRCS when making an FR NPC. So yeah, re-write his statistics using the rules for epic levels, and re-write the Simbul's statistics by giving her access to feats, spells, items and the like published after her the FRCS/ELH, and his advantages diminish as well.
Telemont Tanthul- He doesnt have an actual stat block, so its more difficult to speculate. That said, he basically drops down to the equivalent of a CR 35 encounter when in bright light or the radius of a daylight spell, so the fact that he is technically 1 CR point above her isnt that much of an issue. Plus, if we wanted to be really nasty we can always use limited wish to duplicate rend shadow weave as a standard action, followed by swift-action cloud of bewilderment from a Simbul's spell trigger to drop him down to size (all spells which btw are linked to the Simbul and/or her allies, in one form or another)
Moreover, in so far as 2E is concerned, her status as the most powerful wielder of arcane magic was not entirely based on her level, it also was derived from the vast number of incredibly powerful spells she had access to, her personal unique abilities, and her powers as a Chosen of Mystra.
And lastly, she can still single-handedly hold back the might of Thay. Outside of the ranks of the Zulkirs, nearly all Red Wizards are fairly low level, and among the Zulkirs only Szass Tam can hope to stand up against her.
Note: The Simbul was a 30th level Mage in 2E, Elminster was 29th, and the eldest living Phaerimm were the equivalents of 27th level spellcasters in addition to their monstrous statistics. |
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Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2006 : 16:55:48
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*** MINOR SPOILER ***
quote:
Originally posted by The Simbul
Note: The Simbul was a 30th level Mage in 2E, Elminster was 29th, and the eldest living Phaerimm were the equivalents of 27th level spellcasters in addition to their monstrous statistics.
no, I'm pretty sure the Phaerimm elders reached up to Lv 40 in 2E...I can't remember if it is in the Ruins of Myth Drannor box set or the Netheril box set...I need to check that out...
and once the elder sharn were comparable to the elder phaerimm ubt now I guess they were more acting like a casting circle (with the multiple minds) than an individual being.. |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
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The Simbul
Learned Scribe
173 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2006 : 17:56:24
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Well their entry in the Villains Lorebook and in Netheril: Empire of Magic states that the longest lived scions of their race are the equivalent of 27th level spellcasters.
Meanwhile, in 3.5 a "revered elder" phaerimm is the equivalent of a 19th level sorcerer, and the only advanced Phaerimm NPCs we have seen at all in the 3E sourcebooks are the triumvirate that rules Ooltul, and they are around 25th level sorcerers..and that is using the 3.0 rules for phaerimm (where they had no innate racial spellcasting progression, but simply added sorcerer levels to the base monster entry), thus in 3.5 their class levels would likely be re-translated into advanced HD age categories instead...unless of course the DM wanted the Phaerimm to have crappy HP/BAB/Skills
As for Myth Drannor's Phaerimm, they are mostly dead, at the hands of the Shades. The "Standard Phaerimm Extermination Squad" group listing under Shade encounters in Lords of Darkness has an EL of 22, consisting of 1 shadow adept (NE shade wiz11/sha9), 1 captain (LE shade Ftr8), 4 arcanists (NE shade Wiz7), 2 lieutenants (LE shade Ftr5), 50 bodyguards (LE human Ftr2/Sor1), and 100 soldiers (LE human Ftr1/Sor1). The +5 bonus to spell penetration checks gained from Shadow Weave Magic and Pernicious Magic (feats that most of those NPCs will NOT have, either individually or in unison) is not that great of a bonus when up against a supposedly 40 HD phaerimm (whose SR would be 50). If the standard Phaerimm extermination squad deployed to Myth Drannor had an EL of 22, then I would imagine most of the Phaerimm within are simply Revered Elders (CR 21, 19 aberration HD, sorcerer caster level 19, SR 29). |
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Chosen of Moradin
Master of Realmslore
Brazil
1120 Posts |
Posted - 12 Sep 2006 : 18:08:04
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quote:
Originally posted by kalin agrivar
no, I'm pretty sure the Phaerimm elders reached up to Lv 40 in 2E...I can't remember if it is in the Ruins of Myth Drannor box set or the Netheril box set...I need to check that out...
Itīs in the Ruins of Myth Drannor. |
Dwarf, DM, husband, and proud of this! :P
twitter: @yuripeixoto
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Entreri1000
Acolyte
Canada
26 Posts |
Posted - 21 Oct 2006 : 19:49:35
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Whatever the stats say, the Simbul is immensily powerful. She was 30th level Chosen of Mystra, which would make her more powerful than any other 30th level. Of course there is Halaster in Undermountain... Very, very few mages are above 30th (Larloch, Telemont).
Phaerimm are right up there, their magic is instantaneous. So as race, they are probably the most powerful (unless one include dracolichs as a race).
Those shapeshifters in Ed Greenwoods books are likely right up there with the Phaerimm. They can be a rat to an ancient dragon, have the spellcasting abilities of an archmage, regneration abilities of a troll.
There is also the Sharn. |
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The Simbul
