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Alaundo
Head Moderator
United Kingdom
5696 Posts |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
 Posted - 31 Jan 2007 : 23:07:18
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Finally! Overall thoughts:
Lessee… it’s like War of the Spider Queen got itself a dose of RSE and only took a bit, and then the Lady Penitent Trilogy had what was left over. At the end of the first series I was basically asking, “So she moved house. So what?” and at the start of this one I’m on the verge of yelling, “Give me the Reset Button or the fluffy kitten gets it!” My lack of a fluffy kitten is irrelevant. 
That said, just to be clear, I did like the book overall. It certainly gave me a lot of what I was hoping to see - coverage of the worshippers of Selvetarm, for example, and divine shenanigans - my knees went wobbly when I looked at the first lines of the prelude.
Then there was what I hadn’t been hoping to see, per se, but thoroughly enjoyed - say Q’arlynd’s reappearance, a nice retake on the Selvetargtlin that went to Undermountain, the character of Jub and the corresponding tie-back to Windwalker, and a half-explanation for Seyll’s surname - which was rather odd, given her claimed origins.
(Side note: It’s my pet theory now that Seyll was actually a Masked Traitor rather than simply a priestess of Lolth, and didn’t bring it up in War of the Spider Queen so as to keep from breaking Halisstra’s brain any more than she had to. Now back to this book…)
I got pretty much knocked flat. In that way, it was a great read.
In the process, however, Sacrifice of the Widow also killed off one and a half of the drow gods that I thought most interesting - I say one and a half because it’s a fair guess that Vhaeraun’s not quite “out of the game” yet.
Now, about Vhaeraun - first and most trivially, the author seems to be following the precedent of her mention in Extinction so far as which half of the face the mask covers. Most all other depictions of Vhaeraun/his followers have domino masks, like you see with superheroes. But a half-mask is a half-mask is a half-mask, so…
I’m mildly irked that we didn’t get to see Vhaeraun and Eilistraee have it out, but it made for an interesting scene with the moonfire later. Then there’s that old adage that it’s not dead unless you’re shown the body, so I can live with that.
Then there’s the mention of “Silverflash” on page 252. It puts me in mind rather of the business with the werewolf bodies back in Extinction, but it seems a far more obvious gaffe to me. The “burning bodies” part, as has been stated, was separate from the part on the High Hunt and relatively easy to miss. Meanwhile, Demihuman Deities says his silver short sword is called “Shadowflash.” Favored weapon in Faiths and Pantheons says “Shadowflash.” Where does “Silverflash” come in? The research in other parts of the book is evident, but this rather jarred.
About Selvetarm… oh boy. I rather liked him from his earlier portrayals, so there’s obviously bias here. I can see why it happened, since he’s a relatively expendable member of the pantheon to act as guinea pig for the Crescent Blade. Also, might be there’s only room in the Demonweb Pits for one psychotic enforcer of Lolth who certainly didn’t join up for the dental plan - some jibes about Halisstra being his replacement that I made in a story last year seem to have come true. Not to mention his backstory is marvelously appropriate for the situation. Still, I found myself severely underwhelmed by just how it came about.
Okay, how do I put this? He’s something of a proto-Halisstra. It was mentioned somewhat in the book, but here’s the rest of the story - Selvetarm killed Zanassu because he was absolutely batty about Eilistraee and wanted to impress her. That, and Lolth tricked him into it so she could swoop down while he was struggling with Zanassu’s essence and bind him to her will. In a way, I think he was even more screwed over than Halisstra, because she purposely killed Feliane and broke the Crescent Blade - not to mention lied about both to Qilué. Selvetarm, meanwhile, killed a demon lord and there he was - do not pass Go, do not collect two hundred. As I said above, lots of potential. Lots of opportunity for pathos. His death would be a great time for all that to come out.
But so far, it seems that ball’s pretty much dropped. There’s only pathos if, like me, you happen to know how much of his backstory wasn’t told in Sacrifice of the Widow. As it is, it’s just “Oh, Lolth’s bootlicker’s dead. Oh, he’s dead again. Oh, and Eilistraee’s barely batting an eyelash about someone who bloody well ended up where he was trying to please her.” The last is somewhat explainable given whatever happened with her and Vhaeraun, who would probably not be so sympathetically inclined and might well be pulling a Zanassu on his sister, but as for the rest - I can’t help but feel dissatisfied.
It’s even weirder considering the blatant similarities between his case and Halisstra’s, because to me it comes off sounding something like “Poor tormented her, we must save her! Him? He can die. Who cares?”
All in all, though, I think I’ll still be picking up the rest of the series when it comes out. This book seems a tough act to follow, but I guess I’ll see in September - or, given the date I got this one, possibly in August. |
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 10:24:10
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I beg to differ. The ending is something I feared in the beginning. Seeing that Lisa Shedman has the reins, I've been expecting her to give Eilistraee a great deal of benefits and go on with her ideas of killing evil gods. Now that Selvatarm and Vhaeraun have both been owned, I wouldn't be surprised if she kills Lolth off in the end and gives Eilistraee the control over the drow race - another happy ending that follows Miyeritar and Cormanthyrs' revival. Let's hope Lisa will be fair and Eilistraee's victory temporary and very costly.
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 14:11:41
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quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfo
I beg to differ. The ending is something I feared in the beginning. Seeing that Lisa Shedman has the reins, I've been expecting her to give Eilistraee a great deal of benefits and go on with her ideas of killing evil gods. Now that Selvatarm and Vhaeraun have both been owned, I wouldn't be surprised if she kills Lolth off in the end and gives Eilistraee the control over the drow race - another happy ending that follows Miyeritar and Cormanthyrs' revival. Let's hope Lisa will be fair and Eilistraee's victory temporary and very costly.
Beg to differ in that you won't be getting the next book?
Personally, I would be surprised if she killed Lolth off, at least permanently. My guess is that instead the boys have been, how do you say it? "Sacrificed." It's exceedingly frustrating for this fangirl in the audience. Who am I supposed to fantasize about now - Ghaunadaur?  Or perhaps a newly Corellonesque Eilistraee?
Seriously, I do fret somewhat about what's going to be left when this is through - I doubt straight-up Lolth versus Eilistraee would be nearly as interesting in the long run if we're really out the Men's Lib advocate and sprog. Maybe I wouldn't mind so much if they had more of a big finish, but Selvetarm got two death scenes and I still found myself rather underwhelmed; Vhaeraun, as previously mentioned, didn't get any. I'm hoping this last means that Eilistraee locked him in a closet somewhere, and he'll bust out in the second or third book. That should happen around the time Leira throws a Tupperware party on the moon.  |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 01 Feb 2007 : 14:40:13
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quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
In the process, however, Sacrifice of the Widow also killed off one and a half of the drow gods that
Oh dear! This book isn't yet available in Europe. I'm not sure if I should buy it not if it's going to be this bad. The very idea of gods killing each other is terrible.
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikamiNow, about Vhaeraun - first and most trivially, the author seems to be following the precedent of her mention in Extinction so far as which half of the face the mask covers. Most all other depictions of Vhaeraun/his followers have domino masks, like you see with superheroes. But a half-mask is a half-mask is a half-mask, so…
It's amazing isn't it how many authors forget what their characters are wearing. Was Vhaeraun half-masked and smiling again?
quote:
Originally posted by ywhtptgtfoSeeing that Lisa Shedman has the reins, I've been expecting her to give Eilistraee a great deal of benefits and go on with her ideas of killing evil gods.
They had best not kill off Kiaransalee otherwise I will start a weekly letter-writing campaign to rival that of Andy Dufresne's. As I said above the very idea of gods killing each other is terrible.  |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 02 Feb 2007 : 23:57:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
Oh dear! This book isn't yet available in Europe. I'm not sure if I should buy it not if it's going to be this bad. The very idea of gods killing each other is terrible.
Well, to be "fair" about it - and spoilery, but I'm guessing you don't mind that if you're posting here - Selvetarm was actually killed by a mortal... at least, the first time.
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Now, about Vhaeraun - first and most trivially, the author seems to be following the precedent of her mention in Extinction so far as which half of the face the mask covers. Most all other depictions of Vhaeraun/his followers have domino masks, like you see with superheroes. But a half-mask is a half-mask is a half-mask, so…
It's amazing isn't it how many authors forget what their characters are wearing. Was Vhaeraun half-masked and smiling again?
Out of curiosity, when was he half-masked and smiling to begin with? Though that may not be so much of a contradiction given that, as I mentioned above, the half-masks are usually shown on the upper half of the face. Lisa Smedman is the only one I know of who depicts them otherwise. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2007 : 12:46:44
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quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Selvetarm was actually killed by a mortal
Ah well, that makes it alright then!
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Out of curiosity, when was he half-masked and smiling to begin with?
The incident I'm thinking of involved the Vhaeruanite priest in The War of the Spider Queen (WotSQ.) As you say, normally Vhaeraunite masks cover the upper half of the face. Which is reinforced by the illustrations of Vhaeraun.
I'm at work so I don't have a list of the mask problems in WotSQ but I recall there were several. If I find my notes on them I'll post. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2007 : 19:54:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Kiaransalyn
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Selvetarm was actually killed by a mortal
Ah well, that makes it alright then!
Ah, but of course!
Speaking of which, I'm starting to wonder if history could repeat itself and Zanassu's essence might be transferred once again. Said mortal actually brings up the possibility herself, though in reference to a different set of events -
quote:
Sacrifice of the Widow, p. 303
"Just as Selvetarm was corrupted after he destroyed Zanassu and assumed the Spider Demon's divine power, so might our worshippers be... So might Eilistraee be, if Vhaeraun's evil seeps into her-"
Maybe she should first worry about the evil seeping into herself, ah?
And I suppose the Eilistraeens - perhaps even Eilistraee herself - could think Selvetarm being corrupted was his own fault or some such thing, which would explain somewhat why there wasn't even a token "really, really stinks to be him." I could even theorize that it's all part of a general unconscious gender bias, which would go some way toward explaining the apparent double standard with Halisstra.
There's no problem with the Eilistraeens being depicted as perfect - they obviously have their issues. It's more that pretty much nobody calls them on those issues except for those who have even worse ones - Q'arlynd, for example, and Szorak Auzkovyn. Who'd be much inclined to put stock in the objections of a power-hungry mage and a semi-necrophiliac rapist? (Well, me, apparently, but eh) There was Ryld, back in the day, but of course he was a staunch Lolthian and if you read Chapter One or War of the Spider Queen you know what became of him. |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2007 : 12:51:19
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Well, a great book and gripping until the end  .
In all the years I've been reading FR-Novels, this novel clearly sticks out as the first book to kill off two deities in 312 pages (why isn't this trilogy a RSE? A few more pages would have helped the story a lot to give the new characters more depth).
So Selvetarm was killed by the Crescent Blade (I'd love to know which deity's behind the newly evolved consciousness, because according to my memory it never spoke in the WotSQ) and Vhaeraun was killed by Eilistraee. What's gonna happen in the second book? Eilistraee gets killed or Vhaeraun comes back after Cavatina "rescues" her corrupted goddess? |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
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Besshalar
Learned Scribe
Finland
166 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2007 : 17:55:31
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| Or what if Vhaeraun was actually succesful and he just took Eilistraees form to play his own games I'd love that ending personally... |
The large print giveth , and the small print taketh away.
-Tom Waits |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2007 : 19:59:55
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quote:
Originally posted by Besshalar
Or what if Vhaeraun was actually succesful and he just took Eilistraees form to play his own games I'd love that ending personally...
Hm, I think that's quite unlikely. Quilue would have noticed the difference. But Vhaeraun is surely not quite gone, either |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2007 : 20:34:11
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| Hmm, Vhaeraun has one Divine Rank higher then his sister, however comparing stats from F&P it appears she has a slight edge because of classes and stat allocation. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2007 : 23:25:34
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quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
quote:
Originally posted by Besshalar
Or what if Vhaeraun was actually succesful and he just took Eilistraees form to play his own games I'd love that ending personally...
Hm, I think that's quite unlikely. Quilue would have noticed the difference. But Vhaeraun is surely not quite gone, either
Not to mention the narrative would have noticed the difference, which by no means rules out a more subtle influence.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
Hmm, Vhaeraun has one Divine Rank higher then his sister, however comparing stats from F&P it appears she has a slight edge because of classes and stat allocation.
So far as I knew, Vhaeraun didn't get stats or divine ranking in Faiths and Pantheons. Assuming the stats in Demihuman Deities, it looks like Eilistraee's got quite an advantage so far as levels, but given second edition multiclassing rules it might not be as jaw-dropping as it looks at first glance. Then you've also got to take "Special Attacks/Defense" into account. For example, Eilistraee's evil-smiting magic missiles probably wouldn't do much against Vhaeraun's superabsorbent cloak.
But overall it does seem that attacking a swordwork specialist in her own realm, especially after what Selvetarm was able to do, was not his most well-thought-out idea - hence the apparent outcome, I suppose. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 05 Feb 2007 : 23:32:54
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quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Assuming the stats in Demihuman Deities, it looks like Eilistraee's got quite an advantage so far as levels, but given second edition multiclassing rules it might not be as jaw-dropping as it looks at first glance. Then you've also got to take "Special Attacks/Defense" into account. For example, Eilistraee's evil-smiting magic missiles probably wouldn't do much against Vhaeraun's superabsorbent cloak.
I wouldn't base this on the Demihuman Deities stats because those stats are for avatars only. Deities in 2e didn't have stats, only their avatars did and avatars can have different stats if the deity wishes it. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 00:45:59
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I wouldn't base this on the Demihuman Deities stats because those stats are for avatars only. Deities in 2e didn't have stats, only their avatars did and avatars can have different stats if the deity wishes it.
Well, Kentinal brought up the topic of levels, and since - as previously stated - Vhaeraun didn't get one of the detailed writeups in Faiths and Pantheons, the avatars in Demihuman Deities seem the closest basis for comparison. |
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Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 01:32:45
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quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I wouldn't base this on the Demihuman Deities stats because those stats are for avatars only. Deities in 2e didn't have stats, only their avatars did and avatars can have different stats if the deity wishes it.
Well, Kentinal brought up the topic of levels, and since - as previously stated - Vhaeraun didn't get one of the detailed writeups in Faiths and Pantheons, the avatars in Demihuman Deities seem the closest basis for comparison.
I still wouldn't base it on avatars because as I said, deities can change their avatar stats whenever they feel like it. There's no comparison between avatars. |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 02:29:53
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quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
quote:
Originally posted by Kuje
I wouldn't base this on the Demihuman Deities stats because those stats are for avatars only. Deities in 2e didn't have stats, only their avatars did and avatars can have different stats if the deity wishes it.
Well, Kentinal brought up the topic of levels, and since - as previously stated - Vhaeraun didn't get one of the detailed writeups in Faiths and Pantheons, the avatars in Demihuman Deities seem the closest basis for comparison.
I still wouldn't base it on avatars because as I said, deities can change their avatar stats whenever they feel like it. There's no comparison between avatars.
Well, I don't think it would be amiss to suggest that an avatar might show something of the god's capabilities - can you see, say, the orc god of stupidity with an avatar who's an Elminster-level wizard?
But if you insist, then we had better drop this line of discussion since, as I said, there is no other detailed basis of comparison for the relative power of the twins that you wouldn't shoot down on the same grounds. |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 03:01:42
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quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
[Well, Kentinal brought up the topic of levels, and since - as previously stated - Vhaeraun didn't get one of the detailed writeups in Faiths and Pantheons, the avatars in Demihuman Deities seem the closest basis for comparison.
Am I always the trouble maker? I found stats in 3.X form that appeared to be consistant with the rules giving Vhaeraun a Divine Rank of 8. If in fact he does not have such a rank it indeed is my error. In additional comment when I first saw the site, I was not all that sure of canon. It rrappeared though at near top of list after a year. Perhaps the stats I found believable are fully fan based and Vhaeraun was lower in Divine rant then his sister. *shrugs*
My error if there is no 3.X canon concerning stats of Vhaeraun. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 03:38:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
[Well, Kentinal brought up the topic of levels, and since - as previously stated - Vhaeraun didn't get one of the detailed writeups in Faiths and Pantheons, the avatars in Demihuman Deities seem the closest basis for comparison.
Am I always the trouble maker?
Didn't mean to imply that, and sorry if I did. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 14:52:34
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| Well, the end was a bit of a downer for me. Not because of the events that happened, but the way they did. I tend to stick to the rules and allow the protagonists in the novels as much freedom as possible. Yet, sneaking up on a deity without the latter taking notice on its home soil is quite extra-extraordinary. What Selvetarm was doing when Cavatina closed in is up to debate too, not to mention his actions when he got hold of the would-be-assassin. And i have yet to work out how she actually managed to bend her body around his head while being caught amongst his fangs. But I am not a friend of direct deity involvement anyways, so expect me to find a spot to rant about here and there ;-) |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 06 Feb 2007 14:53:36 |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 16:03:01
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| Selvetarm was probably to caught up in guiding the attacks of his followers on Eilistraees places of worship. Being a demi-god doesn't necessarily mean that you can manage loads of different tasks at once and he wasn't expecting anyone showing up on his home plane . You can still surprise deities, they are not all knowing (except for Ao, perhaps). |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
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Danubus36
Acolyte
7 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 20:01:58
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Ok this may sound really silly, but I'd love to know...
At the end when Eilistraee's face had the mask appear on her did that truly mean she killed her brother or did it mean that Vhaeraun was successful in taking her over? It was said earlier that Vhaeraun worshippers can hide their alignment from others and I was wondering that if Vhaeraun won he would actually incorporate/take on her worshippers. So, if he did win most Elistraee worshippers wouldnt know would they? (at least not yet)
Anyway, I might sound really corny, but at the end I wasnt 100% who won there. |
ADM of Cold Lands server-ALFA |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 06 Feb 2007 : 23:14:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Danubus36
Ok this may sound really silly, but I'd love to know...
At the end when Eilistraee's face had the mask appear on her did that truly mean she killed her brother or did it mean that Vhaeraun was successful in taking her over? It was said earlier that Vhaeraun worshippers can hide their alignment from others and I was wondering that if Vhaeraun won he would actually incorporate/take on her worshippers. So, if he did win most Elistraee worshippers wouldnt know would they? (at least not yet)
Anyway, I might sound really corny, but at the end I wasnt 100% who won there.
Well, her worshippers wouldn't know but - again - I think the narrative would, and the narrative didn't say "Eilistraee (who was actually Vhaeraun puppeting her corpse)" not to mention got into her head some, so if he did win in some way it's a subtle win. Now if that mask started suffocating her at the start of the second book or some such thing... |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 09:18:48
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Well, Vhaeraun wouldn't be as chaotic as his mother and be silent to his clerics, would he? Remember that after the moonfire fiasco, one or two of them tried to commune with him and he was more or less silent ... his clerics clearly said who was talking to them? Furthermore, he entered Eilistraee's realm alone, she was prepared and most likely not alone when he showed up.
One possible interpretation: The mask at the end was "simply" Cavatina's fears come true, i.e. Eilistraee did absorb Vhaeraun's power and with it some portfolios she may not want ... and a fair share of evil. As in: I wouldn't be surprised if she changed to more neutral ways from now on. Switching to evil is no option IMHO. If she had feared for herself, she could have easily drawn upon the help of Selûne and Sehanine ... see, it could have been that easy for her. As it is, we have cliffhangers galore ... which is fine for a novel plot. It is much less so if the whole drow pantheon debate is prolonged by another three years or something. For that is stuff the Book of Vile Darkness is made off. Thank you very much. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 10:34:43
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| A god doesn't per se turn to evil after absorbing other portfolios. Finder didn't turn evil after getting the portfolio from Moander and Kelemvor certainly isn't a copy of Myrkul. |
Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 19:16:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Braveheart
A god doesn't per se turn to evil after absorbing other portfolios. Finder didn't turn evil after getting the portfolio from Moander and Kelemvor certainly isn't a copy of Myrkul.
I agree, and I don't see why a god should be "forced" into taking a portfolio that they'd rather not have. But that's just me. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 19:22:58
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It however appears Drow deities have this problem that human deities do not have.
quote:
Son of Vhaeraun and Zandilar (now an aspect of Sharess), he was almost good and consumed Zanassu, a demon lord with a fondness for spiders and was overwhelmed by his evil.
Selvetarm killed the Demon to get closer in friendship with his Aunt, however just the reversed occured. Perhaps not logical that alignment shifts occur because of distroying Evil, however there is no rule that logic applies to FR.
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"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 19:32:17
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Well, Vhaeraun wouldn't be as chaotic as his mother and be silent to his clerics, would he? Remember that after the moonfire fiasco, one or two of them tried to commune with him and he was more or less silent ... his clerics clearly said who was talking to them?
Really? In my book, Malvag tried to commune with him after opening the gate (after the other cleric started freaking out) and got a sort of male-female combined voice. I wouldn't call that silence.
Speaking of which, the voice combo brings up the possibility that Eilistraee's trying to provide "balance" by taking on Vhaeraun's masculine essence (Oh Sharess, that sounds wrong) and hence growing to closer resemble gender-ambiguous Corellon. Or that could have happened without her actually meaning to. Or it could be a not-very-good attempt at corpse-puppeting on behalf of the Nightshadows.
Edit: quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
It however appears Drow deities have this problem that human deities do not have.
It's not just drow deities - there's been speculation that Tempus hasn't finished off Garagos because then, as the only "generic" god of war standing, he'd have to take on the indiscriminate killing, looting, etc. I think there may also be a similar conundrum concerning Mystra and the Shadow Weave. |
Edited by - TobyKikami on 10 Feb 2007 19:34:56 |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 23:25:31
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TobyKikami
quote:
Really? In my book, Malvag tried to commune with him after opening the gate (after the other cleric started freaking out) and got a sort of male-female combined voice. I wouldn't call that silence.
The voice was male and female at the start, yet one in the end. Malvag next thoughts are more specific (p. 293)
"That was Eilistraee who'd just spoken, not Vhaeraun."
You could try and turn this to something else, but in essence: if a cleric of a god does not recognize his deity, how should we do? Second: why would Vhaeraun try to fool his own (small) clergy - in the knowledge what they would do (as they did - i.e. go mad or commit suicide)? Only possible explanation would be: he absorbed too much of the good Eilistraee. IMHO hardly likely, but we'll not know before Lady Penitent II or III. |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 10 Feb 2007 : 23:45:33
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Facinating begining to this series. One thing I would point out. Many things shifted and changed as this story unfolded in the first book of the trilogy. I wouldn't assume that we know too much about where any of this is going, other than that Lolth and Eilistraee are seriously butting heads right now.
Given that we expressly saw the destrustion of Selvetarm, and that he was "only" a demigod, odds are that he really did shuffle off his immortal coil. I'm not saying that his death is an absolute definate, but honestly, I think its more likely to stay permanent given the circumstances.
Given that the blade seems to have its own purpose, and that Halisstra, a servant of Lolth, was urging Cavatina on, I'm betting that Selvetarm's death wasn't so much Eilistraee's victory, as Lolth sacrificing a "piece" for a greater gambit later on. Keep in mind, at first it looked like she was upset to loose the "piece" in Coda, but she referred to Selvetarm as "traitor" just before he died.
Also, if Eilistraee had just completely disposed of Vhearaun and absorbed his essense, just like that, I'm betting we wouldn't have seen the whole event from the "mortal" perspective. It seems to me that even if Vhearaun had attacked Eilistraee, it could have been that he did any number of things, including:
1) Faked his death and "hidden" on Eilistraee to convince her that he was dead, so he can wait out the game in relative safety.
2) Been nearly defeated and made a deal with Eilistraee to aid her in a partnership against Lolth, and since she has the upper hand, he would be the "junior" partner in the venture.
3) Vhearaun just plain faked his death and hid in the planes, letting Eilistraee have his worshippers until he has a more advantageous chance to pop back into the picture.
I just think that its a bit strange to assume that Eilistraee could be waiting for him to kill him, but that Vhearaun wouldn't be wary of his initial plan after his priests found traitors among them during the ritual he planned out for them.
On top of all of this, there is obviously more going on. Part of me is very dubious about the simple manner in which three drow just happened to be able to work High Magic . . . there are more players in this game, I think, then we have seen right now.
And I'm still looking forward to seeing Ghaunadaur and Kiaraunsalee thow into this whole thing. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 00:08:02
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KnightErrant JR
quote:
On top of all of this, there is obviously more going on. Part of me is very dubious about the simple manner in which three drow just happened to be able to work High Magic . . . there are more players in this game, I think, then we have seen right now.
Well, matter of factly, they used an Ilythiiri ritual powered by souls et al, something not too unrealistic. Given that we just learned that Elven High Magic can be cast not just by a circle of High Magi, but those "tainted" with immortal blood too. Furthermore, it could well be that the spell as such was "just" of epic proportions, rather than real Elven High Magic. As many ifs and buts as the novel has created, aye?!
quote:
And I'm still looking forward to seeing Ghaunadaur and Kiaraunsalee thow into this whole thing.
Me not. The game, as it is portrayed, is being played by the Dark Mother and the Dark Maiden since aeons. It is even mentioned that it stopped when Lolth was silent (and Eilistraee made great inrodes and all) and I would expect something similar if a player is being changed.
As for those two, I could not care less about Ghaunadaur, who is not even a true drow deity. Kiaransalee has - essentially - nothing to do with Lolth's/Araushnee's kin, so I don't think nor hope that she gets any involvement at all. I was actually a bit surprised why her followers would want a return to the surface, as only her FR worshippers would harbour such ideas and unless I am mistaken, her worship didn't even make it to these shores pre-Descent.
Apart from all the above ... I cannot see a point in this game, as Lolth alone can loose something valuable and while she is deeply chaotic in nature, she's not stupid or insane. Eilistraee could loose her odd thousand worshippers and all good drow may fall under Lolth's sway (well, by canon, only her clergy would suffer (at first), the rest could turn to Selûne or whomever). Lolth though would loose nigh an entire race and the status of Greater Goddess. That's about the same as having the US a game with Denmark over Greenland and the winner does not only take Greenland, but the oppositions country / population as well. Fine for the Danes if they win with a lucky throw, right? Would the US ever think of doing such a game in the first place though? |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
Edited by - Zanan on 11 Feb 2007 00:10:26 |
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Sacrifice of the Widow: Chapters 12 - 13 & Coda
