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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
 Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 00:13:32
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quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
TobyKikami
quote:
Really? In my book, Malvag tried to commune with him after opening the gate (after the other cleric started freaking out) and got a sort of male-female combined voice. I wouldn't call that silence.
The voice was male and female at the start, yet one in the end. Malvag next thoughts are more specific (p. 293)
"That was Eilistraee who'd just spoken, not Vhaeraun."
You could try and turn this to something else, but in essence: if a cleric of a god does not recognize his deity, how should we do? Second: why would Vhaeraun try to fool his own (small) clergy - in the knowledge what they would do (as they did - i.e. go mad or commit suicide)? Only possible explanation would be: he absorbed too much of the good Eilistraee. IMHO hardly likely, but we'll not know before Lady Penitent II or III.
Ah, gotcha. When I first read your post I thought you meant "silence" in the sense of "he cast commune but got absolutely nothing," which rather boggled the mind. But that statement makes good bit more sense in the context of the theory of Vhaeraun being the one to puppet the corpse. |
Edited by - TobyKikami on 11 Feb 2007 00:15:51 |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 00:21:38
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Perhaps, but Lolth's greatest weakness is her pride. She wants all of the drow under her, which is why I doubt she worried too much about loosing Selvetarm, especially if he was starting to have independant thoughts. I would venture to guess she only suffered him a a way of picking up males that might have otherwise been tempted by Vhearaun's worship. That and she corrupted Vhearaun's son and Eilistraee's biggest cheerleader in one shot.
You mention Lolth being a greater goddess, but honestly, after seeing scope of this trilogy unfold, let me posit something. Paul Kemp mentioned here at the keep that one of the results of the WOTSQ books would be that Lolth was a greater goddess, but that was what was being batted around as an editorial idea. No product so far has ever mentioned that Lolth was a greater goddess since WOTSQ came out. Given that this trilogy was likely already in the planning stage by the end of the WOTSQ books, I'd almost be willing to lay odds that it might actually be THIS trilogy of books that explains how Lolth ends up as a greater goddess, especially since the book starts out pointing out that Lolth has lost ground to Eilistraee during her silence.
Everyone has their own tastes. I would love to see Ghaunadaur gets some attention, especially since he was the first corrupting influence on the dark elves. As far as Kiaraunsalee goes, I don't want to get too far off topic here, but if she wasn't interested in spreading her influence to other areas of worship than cabals of vengeful necromancers in the Underdark, why would she have attempted (and partially succeeded in) killing off Orcus? Heck, according to her origin she is pretty ambitious, if self destructive.
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Charles Phipps
Master of Realmslore
1425 Posts |
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The Red Walker
Great Reader
USA
3567 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 02:57:02
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I really enjoyed this book and reading everyones thoughts about what "really" happened in it!
It seems like a few went in with a "favorite" drow god and just are not willing to let them die!
I think much of the "confusion" can be cleared up by not trying to think this out to many levels deep. This was penned by a human and not a Drow who has been planning on fooling us fr centuries.
I think Selvetarm was killed so easily because Lloth had "lost" his piece in the game versus Elistraee, so the reason he was just holding Cavatina instead of finishing her off was he was rather like a Puppet with his strings cut. He was already dead, but did not know it yet!
As for the deabte of Vhaeraun still being alive in some form seems to be wishful thinking. It seemed fairly clear that he is dead. I understand how you could think it would be hard for Elistraee to catch him by surprise, when that is his forte, and possibly being alerted by finding traitors in the ceremony. Two things I thought of that convince me he is dead. First the idea that it would actually be very easy for Elistraee to catch him by surprise because of Vhaerauns arogance of his own superiority to Elistraee. He would never have considered killing her in her own realm if he did not think he was so vastly superior to her that he would not believe her defeating him was possible. Second was the mask on Elsitraee, it seemed to fit her need to "fool" Vhaeraun's followers for a time.
The clincher for me was when Cavatina asked Quilue if it was true that Vhaeraun was dead, she confirmed how she warned Elistraee and she prevailed.
Also while I think It is highly possible for a god to fool worshipers for a while of their true identity, I do not think that if Vhaeraun actually won, that he could fool a chosen of Elistraee of Quilue's accumen.
As a small disclaimer, as I am not drow, I could be wraong about all I said!! |
A little nonsense now and then, relished by the wisest men - Willy Wonka
"We need men who can dream of things that never were." -
John F. Kennedy, speech in Dublin, Ireland, June 28, 1963
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 04:33:14
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Anything is possible, but I mean that. Vhearaun may be dead, but he may not, and neither would surprise me, though I doubt even if he is that the last of his influence has been felt. Qilue's response to Cavatina was actually a little more "nuanced" than a straight confirmation. She seemed to beleive Vhearaun was dead, but she only actually confirmed that she had warned Eilistraee.
Plus I just don't picture the Epilogue and the Coda quite that literally. I think on one level its what is "really" happening, but its not like Lolth and Eilistraee on sitting on the "Great Tree" playing Sava across the planes, and reality is altering around the game they are playing . . . its a metaphysical and metaphorical way of precieving one level that their conflict is happening on.
I could be wrong, but that's how I see it. |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 10:03:03
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
You mention Lolth being a greater goddess, but honestly, after seeing scope of this trilogy unfold, let me posit something. Paul Kemp mentioned here at the keep that one of the results of the WOTSQ books would be that Lolth was a greater goddess, but that was what was being batted around as an editorial idea. No product so far has ever mentioned that Lolth was a greater goddess since WOTSQ came out.
You see, that is my concern here. WotSQ VI went out in April 2005 and no book on FR lore has since shed any more info on even the length of the Silence. Maybe that was done by purpose, as Lady Penitent will shake things up again ... well, that's how many years since July 2002 that WotC shake up the drow pantheon and drow society? Now do I really want to estimate how long it will take till after LP III before we see what happens there. (Sorry for my tone, but I am in a bit of a rantish mood.) I would assume that we will get some more info on the WotSQ in the Realms Calendar in November. My point is though - we do live in a world that has internet and web-enhancements and a short give-nothing-away WE on the War ... well the Silence of Lolth would not harm many people or deter them from buying the novels.
quote:
Everyone has their own tastes.
Now wait. Did you just say that you've got a taste for the Slimy One? 
quote:
I would love to see Ghaunadaur gets some attention, especially since he was the first corrupting influence on the dark elves. As far as Kiaraunsalee goes, I don't want to get too far off topic here, but if she wasn't interested in spreading her influence to other areas of worship than cabals of vengeful necromancers in the Underdark, why would she have attempted (and partially succeeded in) killing off Orcus? Heck, according to her origin she is pretty ambitious, if self destructive.
Aye, we'd go off topic. She hates Orcus with abandon and her FR worshippers hunt his followers first and foremost. Irae was most likely a spoilt former Lolthite brat turning faiths (vengeance and all), hence her ideas about the surface. I have never heard of any other Kiaransaleen looking towards the surface before though and their prime focus will probably still be the Orcus-hunt and a growing of ranks.
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Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Kiaransalyn
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
762 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 12:27:12
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
And I'm still looking forward to seeing Ghaunadaur and Kiaraunsalee thow into this whole thing.
I hope that they don't get involved.
Ghaunadaur isn't a drow deity but a deity worshipped by drow. Much the same as some drow worship Shar. Why should Ghaunadaur about a squabble in a pantheon that it couldn't care less about.
As regards Kiaransalee, I would expect her to be sensible enough to stay out of the whole thing. And only to act after the dust has settled from what is a family arguement. If anyone should be involved I would think it to be Corellon. Kiaransalee was named drow long before Araushnee fell. To get involved in this power struggle would be an admission on her part of Lolth's relevance.
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
Irae was most likely a spoilt former Lolthite brat turning faiths (vengeance and all), hence her ideas about the surface. I have never heard of any other Kiaransaleen looking towards the surface before though
Irae was bone white albino. I personally doubt she would have been accepted into the Lolthite clergy. (Although, of course, your opinion is equally valid.) I personally think the Kiaransaleen would entertain ideas about being active on the surface because vengeance is such a large part of the Revenancer's faith. Any slight must be avenged and what calls out for more vengeance than being banished to the bowels of the earth?
quote:
Originally posted by The Red Walker
It seems like a few went in with a "favorite" drow god and just are not willing to let them die!
Absolutely! And why should they be willing to let their favourite deity die?
I don't think gods should die! The only way to kill a god is to destroy every reference to their name. If one person says prayers to a deity then it is not dead. Similarly, if one person thinks of a deity and believes it to be a deity then that deity exists.
Demigods and higher hear their names and titles. Their fundamental function is to hear the prayers of their faithful. It is not to grant their prayers, merely to hear them. I have no doubt that some of Selvetarm's faithful will take their god's silence as a sign that they should rely more on themselves and not to rely on his power. |
Death is Life
Love is Hate
Revenge is Forgiveness
Ken: You from the States?
Jimmy: Yeah. But don't hold it against me.
Ken: I'll try not to... Just try not to say anything too loud or crass. |
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Arkhaedun
Senior Scribe
869 Posts |
Posted - 11 Feb 2007 : 14:45:12
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A few friendly reminders about the Book Club and the CoC:
While it is perfectly alright to state that you don't like a given book, or even to say that you are not a fan of a particular author, comments that that indicate, for example, that "you should have know this book would turn out this way because X wrote it," are on the verge of being a direct insult to the author. This is not allowed at Candlekeep, and I would ask that you do your best to refrain from dismissive comments about the authors "pattern" of writing.
Also, while it makes perfect sense to reference game material from time to time in such discussions, long digressions into game rule disputes should be avoided. This is the Forgotten Realms book club section of the keep, and when roleplaying sourcebooks come in to reference they generally should be used as a reference, and not take precedence over what is actually being discussed in the novel at hand.
Finally, while it makes sense to discuss the novels that have obvious ties to a given series (for example, in this case, the WOTSQ books), lets all make sure that our primary comments in this particular thread mainly have to do with the book and series in question, and don't drift back into too much of a critique of another book or series.
Thanks. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 00:42:41
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quote:
Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
Given that the blade seems to have its own purpose, and that Halisstra, a servant of Lolth, was urging Cavatina on, I'm betting that Selvetarm's death wasn't so much Eilistraee's victory, as Lolth sacrificing a "piece" for a greater gambit later on.
I'm pretty sure that's what the novel's title refers to.
I very much enjoyed this book. And lastly, I don't think the "death" of Vhaeraun is all that concrete at all. In the book, his death is only refered to--we never actually see it. So, really anything is possible. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 02:45:10
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| Once again, I'm feeling pretty dull here, because I wasn't even thinking about the title of the book, but I believe you are absolutely correct there RF. |
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Trizzt08
Acolyte
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 05:13:34
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| I liked it. It threw lots of curveballs at me and I loved every minute of it. Eilistraee finally made some power moves taking out Selvetarm and defeating Vhareun and taking his portfolio increasing her worshp once everything settles down. oh and my prediction is that Lolth and her end with a draw and neither dies. Elistraee might go CN but I doubt that too. maybe something like Mystra's situation where she accepts previous worshippers of Vaherun regardless of alignment, and probaly a new god for the drow. betting on one of magic. for a race that uses so much magic it don't make sense to not have one |
My god says you can't do that |
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Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 12:26:28
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
And lastly, I don't think the "death" of Vhaeraun is all that concrete at all. In the book, his death is only refered to--we never actually see it. So, really anything is possible.
Did we ever saw the death of Leira? Or Ibrandul? 
Once again, let me stress that my resentment over the novel is about the deific things as such, not the way it is being presented. As a novel, it is a real treat! |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
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Trizzt08
Acolyte
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 18:33:14
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| LOL you really don't want Vhaerun dead huh? Well it's been stated pretty clearly, he's dead. Maybe somone will resurrect him but, I doubt it. Why would he pull a Lolth so to speak. He sees what could have happened to her? He gambeled and lost big time. But don't fret, there will be a new drow god or two. Eveyone forget's that Selvetarms dead so his portfolio's up for grabs. And any mortals that kill gods from the realms books I ve read(90%) they usually get the chance to keep the gods divine spark a la Cyric, Finder, Mystra, Kelmevor, Azuth etc. Even Elminster could have been God of Magic. Elistraee needs allies in her own Pantheon anyway. The only part of Vhaereun's portfolio that will bother Elistraee is the Assassains and Poisioners part other then that she's good. |
My god says you can't do that |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 23:20:22
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Gee, am I the only one who remembers what Vhaeraun did in the Prelude of this book?
And Trizzt, if you want to take everything at face value, that's your prerogative, but that doesn't mean everyone has to interpret the book the way you did. You're new here, and it really wouldn't hurt to be a bit more polite, and not make assumptions about what other readers "want". |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 12 Feb 2007 23:21:44 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2007 : 23:23:06
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quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08
The only part of Vhaereun's portfolio that will bother Elistraee is the Assassains and Poisioners part other then that she's good.
Guess she doesn't mind evil activity on the surface?
Come back when you know what you're talking about. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Trizzt08
Acolyte
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 04:12:18
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| Umm I wasn't being rude and I'm not as "new" as you think. Ive been coming to these boards for almost three years now I just didn't post here, and I don't take things at face value, I'm just going with my theory like everyone else who's posted.I take that as an insult to my intelligence, knowledge, and opinion which everyone is welcome to post and the reason why I don't post more often. I never assumed what any reader wanted. With that said, surely she'll have a problem with the evil activity on the surface she's a good aligned goddess,but she's also one that would try to convert them to the light so to speak.It's also the reason I mentioned her becoming CN. She knew what she was taking on when she did it and now she has to solve her own problem.If you read my post then you would know I never dismissed Vhareun coming back I just said I doubt it, shoot I'm not the author just a huge fan of Forgotten Realms.ohh and by the way I was talking about his PORTFOLIOS which since you are a Great Reader and all should know from Faiths and Pantheons what I'm talking about. So come back when you know what your talking about. End argument I did not come here to "beef" with anyone just share thoughts with like minded individuals, I do like to "debate" things with people,everyones intitled to there own opinion, that I don't mind, but not border line insults. Thank you |
My god says you can't do that |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
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Trizzt08
Acolyte
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 04:36:22
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Oh and if you feel like answering any question I have Rinonalyrna Fathomlin then please answer me this. Out of these portfolios of Vhaerun's which would Elistraee as we know her have a problem with?
Theives,Drow males,Half-Drow,Assassins,Poisoners,Shadowdancers or Rouges. To me the only things inherently evil are poisoners and Assassins other than that where exactly would she have a problem?? evil activity on the surface is a goal of Vhaeruns but not part of his portfolio so even if she took his portfolios she wouldn't be bound to his schemes or alignment preferance. The reason why I said she'd take on his whorshippers regardless of alignment is because she'd want to try and convert them first and she just got them. Anyone who doesn't want to worship her doesn't have to but she'll give them a "trial period" if you may, like Mystra. you think she has no former clerics of the Old Mystra that where LE and still are?? Plus she wouldn't accept new clerics who are evil just the old ones. Maybe she'll make sure they perform a boon for her because they are evil to keep their clerical powers. Who knows we'll just have to read and see and keep guessing.
On the last paragraph on page 302 leading on to 303 it clearly states that the Vhaerunites will draw power from Elistraee. So I guess she is cool with evil activity on the surface ehh j/k. maybe she''ll change the clergys aims from witin |
My god says you can't do that |
Edited by - Trizzt08 on 13 Feb 2007 06:06:33 |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 04:53:33
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quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08
Oh and if you feel like answering any question I have Rinonalyrna Fathomlin then please answer me this. Out of these portfolios of Vhaerun's which would Elistraee as we know her have a problem with?
Theives,Drow males,Half-Drow,Assassins,Poisoners,Shadowdancers or Rouges.
Er, those aren't Vhaeraun's portfolios, at least in my copy of Faiths and Pantheons. Those are his frequent worshipers.
His portfolios are thievery, drow males, and, yes, evil activity on the surface.
Evil activity on the surface is, as previously stated, rather obvious, while drow males are comparatively innocuous. Thievery is a bit iffy but given that she's said to chum around with Erevan Ilesere, I think she might be okay with that. |
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Trizzt08
Acolyte
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 04:57:52
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Another question for anyone to consider. IF Elistraee did indeed take Vhaerun's portfolio then how do you think cities run by his clerics or places where they have great influnence will take this, like say Sshamath? And what of Clerics of Selevetarm will they turn on Lloth or turn to her worship. I think he has an underrated influence on the marshall prowess of the drow. Ghaunder seems to be making moves of his own what I couldn't fathom yet maybe getting his avatar released? Kiaransalee hasn't done much of anything it seems maybe former worshippers of Selvetarm would turn to her for vengence agains't Lolth or Elistraee for taking their god? So many questions and it's just the first book. I can't wait till the second one(and the one about Phaerun).Oh and my prediction is Phaerun becomes a god of drow magic.Prays to Mystra(and AO)lol
EDIT I stand corrected on the Portfolio issue, confused the two boxes of info I was kinda upset when I wrote the previous replies |
My god says you can't do that |
Edited by - Trizzt08 on 13 Feb 2007 06:11:57 |
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Trizzt08
Acolyte
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - 13 Feb 2007 : 07:06:00
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| I was just going through the Blackstaff page and it got me remembering that the High Mooor was cleansed. As I mentioned in that page I forget when Blackstaff is placed chronlogically but if it coincides with this series then Q'arlynd will be headed toward an uncovered Miyeritar that may be in the hands of other elves, sharns, or other reawakened occupants. It was a city founded by Dark elves and Wild Elves so a part of me is wondering if this will be the first above ground Drow city. Sharn are or were worshipped by Elistraee and as eveyone knows the Elistraeen drow really don't have a city to call home, plus the Evermeet elves will be busy with Cormanthyr. If this comes to pass I'm changing my name to Aloundo after the phrophet of Candlekeep |
My god says you can't do that |
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KaeYoss
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 18 Feb 2007 : 19:31:46
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I'm not at all sure that Vhaeraun croaked. There's several things that indicate, on several levels, that all is not what it seems:
First of all, there's the technical stuff:
The last fight between two drow deities took weeks: Selvetarm and Vhaeraun fighting before Lolth's old lair was one mad fireworks of blows on the physical, mental and magical level. There's an adventure hook about it in PGtF, where it is said that the conflict threatens to spill all over the planes. But Eilistraee is supposed to kill Vhaeraun in 15 minuts?
(Of course, she could have pulled off the old "pretend to be sleeping to let the assassin get near and jump on him" trick, but I'm not sure of that)
Then, there's the "Sava Game" references:
In the first chapter, Vhaeraun sneaks in and exchanges a slave piece with another (in the Coda, we learn that it was his own piece), a piece which is promptly used by Lolth to bait Eilistraee. Only after the piece was captured did they notice that the piece has been messed with, and Lolth had an outbreak of anger. Vhaeraun let himself be seen by his sister when he came in.
Now, I really doubt that Vhaeraun would willingly put himself in a position where he would be killed, just to be funny or anything. (Again, it could be that he didn't see the piece being captured only a moment later, but I doubt that).
Another thing is Selvetarm's piece: After the roll resulted in snake eyes and Selvetarm's piece was captured, Eilistraee insisted on the sacrifice being carried out, and Lolth takes the piece and destroys it - and Selvetarm himself is destroyed with the piece that is a representation of himself.
But Vhaeraun's piece isn't destroyed - only captured.
It would seem to me that a piece being captured doesn't always mean that the entity it represents would be killed - they could be, well, captured and removed from the game without being killed (Q'arlynd's piece disappeared from the table, too, and that was just because he stopped caring about Eilistraee and Lolth and Selvetarm)
In fact, it would seem that, at least for deities, they got to make special arrangements to bet their lives on their pieces. Eilistraee took a vow before Ao to bet their very lifes on the game, and Selvetarm probably was bound, too, because he openly entered the game. It's quite possible that Vhaeraun got around that somehow (maybe by not announcing his presence). Plus, again, there's that captured piece vs. destroyed piece thing.
And there's more:
As someone already pointed out: We got two explicit death scenes for Selvetarm, with practically 3 deaths for him: He himself is killed in the pits by the sword (and all his clerics lose their power at once), and his sava piece, and his representation in whatever place the "gaming room" represents are destroyed.
But Vhaeraun doesn't have any of this: Just his piece being captured and everyone in the Realms talking about how he's dead now.
I somehow doubt that they/she(Lisa Smedman) would leave out that epic fight if the outcome would be what everyone in the Realms thinks it is, especially after she told how Selvetarm is offed - twice. This "in further news" treatment makes me suspicious.
Another thing is that it is never actually stated as fact that he's dead: His clerics think so because their magic seems to have been Eilistraeeized, and Q'arlind and Quilué tell everyone that it's so, and that Eilistraee told Quilué that she took over his business. But we never hear Eilistraee say it. (Doesn't mean anything, but it surely is one more of those things that cast doubt on the outcome).
There's actually some indication that Vhaeraun wasn't killed:
The magic didn't seem to work as it was supposed to (consume the souls of the Priestesses), but Vhaeraun didn't get suspicious. And was actually there - physically - a moment before, so it wouldn't have slipped past him. It seemed that he knew something was off. He's exactly not the god who can be tricked like that. He's the one doing the tricking.
Also, notice how Quilué made a big deal about not telling anyone that the Eilistraeeans messed with the ritual and Eilistraee was warned? I'd say that normally, Eilistraee - and her chosen - would want everyone to know that they tricked the trickster god. I think it's not unlikely that they don't want that to be known so noone suspects anything fishy going on.
Plus, during the conversation with cavatina, she had a little moment there. She openly displayed anger, somethign she usually didn't do. Cavatina thought that the possibility of Eilistraee being corrupted by Vhaeraun's power unsettled Quilué, but I don't think that's it. After all, they (Eilistraee and Quilué) had ample time to think the whole plan through, and with what happened to Selvetarm back then (taking on the essence of a demon and getting the arachnophilia and evil to boot), they should have anticipated this, and wouldn't have gone through with the plan if they even thought it likely. I guess even though Eilistraee would want Vhaeraun to die, she wouldn't want to corrupt herself in the process. And I'm not sure she wants him to die: She's always going on about getting people to seek redemption, and Vhaeraun is much more likely to be redeemed than Lolth.
To get to the point: I think it's possible that Vhaeraun and Eilistraee are in this together, and Quilué, though seeing the necessity of the plan, is angry at having to work with the Vhaeraunites.
And, finally, there's the whole thing with the mask being blown into Eilistraee's face. It may be Vhaeraun's influence manifesting, but it could also be a message from a very much alife Vhaeraun.
quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08
LOL you really don't want Vhaerun dead huh?
I don't know what's funny about it.
It should be obvious that noone would just want his favourite deity gone. And if it's not clear that said deity's actually dead, they would of course compile the indications to the contrary. If they thought "well, it's not so sure, but he's probably dead now. Let's watch the Bulls game now" it wouldn't be that much of a favourite deity.
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Well it's been stated pretty clearly, he's dead.
No, it hasn't. Some characters in the novel said it - none of them divine, so they could very well be tricked. If it comes to that, even the gods can be tricked. Or those characters could have lied.
But nowhere does it state as a fact that he's really dead. The matter isn't clear at all.
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But don't fret, there will be a new drow god or two.
That's a huge comfort to those fans who would lose their favourite deity here.
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Originally posted by The Red Walker
I think much of the "confusion" can be cleared up by not trying to think this out to many levels deep. This was penned by a human and not a Drow who has been planning on fooling us fr centuries.
So humans are stupid? All those drow how have been planning on fooling anyone for centuries were created and written by humans.
I'm quite sure that Lisa Smedman (or most other FR authors out there) could very well write a novel with several levels of deception, and if said novels were about drow, they would probably do so.
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Two things I thought of that convince me he is dead. First the idea that it would actually be very easy for Elistraee to catch him by surprise because of Vhaerauns arogance of his own superiority to Elistraee. He would never have considered killing her in her own realm if he did not think he was so vastly superior to her that he would not believe her defeating him was possible.
You're still assuming that Vhaeraun actually wanted to kill his sister. That's not so clear.
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Second was the mask on Elsitraee, it seemed to fit her need to "fool" Vhaeraun's followers for a time.
Or it was a sign from Vhaeraun himself...
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The clincher for me was when Cavatina asked Quilue if it was true that Vhaeraun was dead, she confirmed how she warned Elistraee and she prevailed.
That, in fact, is one of the things that make me think that Vhaeraun ins't dead. It was all too easy, too neat for the Eilistraeeans
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Originally posted by KnightErrantJR
1) Faked his death and "hidden" on Eilistraee to convince her that he was dead, so he can wait out the game in relative safety.
2) Been nearly defeated and made a deal with Eilistraee to aid her in a partnership against Lolth, and since she has the upper hand, he would be the "junior" partner in the venture.
3) Vhearaun just plain faked his death and hid in the planes, letting Eilistraee have his worshippers until he has a more advantageous chance to pop back into the picture.
Or, 4) Vhaeraun and Eilistraee planned it together. Sure, they have their differences (hate each other like poison), but Eilistraee is always one to forgive, and Vhaeraun is probably too pragmatic to let his dislike for his sister getting in the way of getting even with his mother, which he hates more than anything else.
It could work something like this:
They slip their respective worshippers the means to open a portal, allegedly so Vhaeraun can kill Eilistraee, and the Eilistraeeans get to warn her deity. Vhaeraun enters Eilistraee's domain, 20 minutes later they say he's dead, Jim, Eilistraee took over his outfit, look at the crazy moonmagic they now have to cast. They tell noone, except maybe their respective chosen (Quilué seemed irritated in the book. This could be from thinking about her goddess and Vhaeraun being in league).
All this gets Vhaeraun into a position where he can strike, unexpectadly, at someone. Probably Lolth. So when the big battle comes, and some Eilistraeean (Quilué or whoever) gets to go after Lolth with the Crescent Blade, and Eilistraee herself joining the fray, it will probably go not well for the enemies of Lolth - until, out of nowhere, comes the guy everyone left for dead, and plunges his swords into Lolth.
Actually, I'd say it's the best plan they had yet. Sending Halisstra with the sword to kill Lolth was doomed to fail. It might work against Selvetarm (with a distraction - the Lady Penitent turning on the spider kissers), but against Lolth? Nah. But now they have Eilistraee, the "surprise" Swordwielder to go after Lolth, and when Lolth fends off both, out of the shadows comes the Wildcard, the real surprise, and catches his mother flat-footed.
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Part of me is very dubious about the simple manner in which three drow just happened to be able to work High Magic
Yeah, as if the whole High Magic part was just staged, and both deities willingly opened the portal.
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. . . there are more players in this game, I think, then we have seen right now.
One is actually mentioned in the book: Melvag had been killed and raised once - by some fiend, who also told him about the scroll.
I guess we'll learn who that was before the Trilogy's over |
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Thoughts in Kae'Yoss |
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Trizzt08
Acolyte
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 21:42:22
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| Intersting theory. It makes lots of sense. But how long do you think they'd work with each other? Why didn't Vahearun at least give his clerics some warning or inkling of his plans? Maybe Elistraee captured him? Do you think he'd turn from his current alignment and portfolio? The whole Sava board thing you mentioned got me thinking. It's obvious that Vahaerun(as much can obvious with him) has thrown in with Elistraee but he is a piece on the board so couldn't she say sacrifce him like Lolth did Selvetarm? Not saying she would but Vahearun doesn't strike me as the type to put his life in the hands of others. He could be like Vesharoon an undergod so to speak. All of this behind the scenes schemming is making me dizzy. I doubt that all the guys have disappeared from the Drow Pantheon. maybe thats what all the fuss is about. Men stand up the women are taking over :) lol |
My god says you can't do that |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 19 Feb 2007 : 22:24:14
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From what I have read, spoiliers and the sample chapter only, the book has not come near where I live. What I have seen was Vahearun placed himself as a Lolth peice so Eilistraee could not scarifice the peice if the rules of Sava are similar to the rules of Chess. Of course Vahearun could have placed himself on the board as his only player or as an Eilistraee peice, disquiesed as a Lolth peice. As far as the game goes, before AO Lolth and Eilistraee offered their lives. Vahearun is not on record of agreeing to such a deal. Selvetarm on the other hand clearly was a piece of Lolth, he clearly under control of Lolth and if Lolth lost her life first, his would not last long (he is/was not powerful enough to make a death deal and survives with Lolth's permission and protection - as well as in effect being Lolth's slave).
The children working together is somewhat credible now. During the "Silence" each tried on their own to take out Lolth, both failed and it is posible that Lolth gained in power. The two have greater reason now to work together at least for a short time to try to reduce Lolth's power. Of course one wonders what type of deal might have been made (if the children are working together) because there are a few points they agree on, but also a few points they opose each other on.
As for Vahearun telling his clergy that he is playing a trick on Lolth - this would not occur at all. Lolth would learn of such in short order by her divine abilities as the word spread or by one of her agents torturing a captured cleric. Eilistraee likewise would not tell her followers of such a deal, perhaps more so because she put her life at risk. |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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KaeYoss
Acolyte
3 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 16:57:25
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quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08
Intersting theory. It makes lots of sense.
Yeah. It's just what a trickster god would do. And Eilistraee might think the prospect of freeing the drow from Lolth to promising to let sibling rivalry get in the way.
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But how long do you think they'd work with each other?
Don't know. Not loo long? But they don't have to, really. They could execute their plans in a moment (like they experience time. Half a year is but the blink of an eye for deities). The last book is due in a bit more than a year - about 15 months. That's something like 6 months Realms-Time.
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Why didn't Vahearun at least give his clerics some warning or inkling of his plans?
Neither Vhaeraun nor Eilistraee gave their followers any inkling of their plans. I guess it would be too easy for spies to get word of it, or for spider kissers to torture it out of some follower of one of the siblings. I think only the chosen know - and that's why Quilué on edge like that.
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Maybe Elistraee captured him? Do you think he'd turn from his current alignment and portfolio?
Actually, I could see him becoming CN, but I think he'd keep his portfolio - he's best suited for it and someone's got to do the job.
There are some Vhaeraunites who follow a theory (many Vhaeraunites would call it a heresy) that Vhaeraun wants his followers to set their differences with the elves aside, so there is one unified, strong elven race, that would be once again a major power on Faerûn, and from this position of strength, would trade and ally with the humans (halflings are of no consequence, and dwarves and gnomes - especially duergar and svirfneblin - aren't to be trusted).
I could see him turning to that belief under his sister's guidance.
I could also see him emphasize his liberator aspect more and push the agenda of equality between genders - and Eilistraee being influenced by that, so she stops favouring females, at least to that extent.
Vhaeraun's followers would probably not change too much: They'd still be masters of stealth and subterfuge who like to trick people, but they would do that on a more personal level, like rogues' guilds.
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The whole Sava board thing you mentioned got me thinking. It's obvious that Vahaerun(as much can obvious with him) has thrown in with Elistraee but he is a piece on the board so couldn't she say sacrifce him like Lolth did Selvetarm?
I guess she could. I just say that she hasn't yet. I'm not quite sure she would, either.
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All of this behind the scenes schemming is making me dizzy. I doubt that all the guys have disappeared from the Drow Pantheon. maybe thats what all the fuss is about. Men stand up the women are taking over :) lol
There's still Ghaunadaur, if... it can ge called male, or really a true part of the pantheon.
quote:
Originally posted by Kentinal
What I have seen was Vahearun placed himself as a Lolth peice so Eilistraee could not scarifice the peice if the rules of Sava are similar to the rules of Chess. Of course Vahearun could have placed himself on the board as his only player or as an Eilistraee peice, disquiesed as a Lolth peice. As far as the game goes, before AO Lolth and Eilistraee offered their lives. Vahearun is not on record of agreeing to such a deal.
Exactly. Vhaeraun put himself onto the board, and I'm sure he knew exactly that his piece would be captured in the next move. He might be many things, but he's not suicidal, so there must be more to this move.
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The children working together is somewhat credible now. During the "Silence" each tried on their own to take out Lolth, both failed and it is posible that Lolth gained in power. The two have greater reason now to work together at least for a short time to try to reduce Lolth's power. Of course one wonders what type of deal might have been made (if the children are working together) because there are a few points they agree on, but also a few points they opose each other on.
Who knows? I doubt that they will ever love eath other like brethren, but they might have called a short truce to get rid of Lolth, once and for all. After that, they go their separate ways again, maybe with an agreement not to step on each other's toes for a while. (Of course, the whole episode could affect them to the point where they forge an uneasy alliance.
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As for Vahearun telling his clergy that he is playing a trick on Lolth - this would not occur at all. Lolth would learn of such in short order by her divine abilities as the word spread or by one of her agents torturing a captured cleric. Eilistraee likewise would not tell her followers of such a deal, perhaps more so because she put her life at risk.
I see we're in agreement on that. |
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Thoughts in Kae'Yoss |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 20 Feb 2007 : 18:27:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Trizzt08
I was just going through the Blackstaff page and it got me remembering that the High Mooor was cleansed. As I mentioned in that page I forget when Blackstaff is placed chronlogically but if it coincides with this series then Q'arlynd will be headed toward an uncovered Miyeritar that may be in the hands of other elves, sharns, or other reawakened occupants.
Well...
1) From what Steve Schend has said, the High Moor will actually take several centuries to be cleansed. If you don't believe me, by all means read his own words on that subject.
2) Only one very small part of the former Realm was raised, not every single settlement that made up Miyeritar...and there really is no reason why Q'arlynd should be able to find it just by bumping into it. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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Trizzt08
Acolyte
USA
20 Posts |
Posted - 22 Feb 2007 : 03:08:25
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| Oh I knew it was going to take centuries it just seemed kinda suspicious to me is all. It would be cool to see whats going on in the city just to see how Q'arlynd would react to meeting ancient ancestors |
My god says you can't do that |
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Lord Rad
Great Reader
United Kingdom
2080 Posts |
Posted - 01 Mar 2007 : 23:20:58
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Loved the scene where Q'arlynd ends up on the Fugue Plain! Reminds me of the scenes in Prince of Lies.
What an end to a book! Fantastic!  I was shocked when Selvatarm was killed. With all the weapons turning to spiders and his faithful getting no response.
The end battles were great. It was good to see Qilue in the fray and some brutal times, such as Iljrene being split in two.
I belted through this part of the book as it was so gripping and must say that I thoroughly enjoyed this book and is by far Lisa Smedman's best work to date, IMO. I can't wait for book 2!
Fans of drow, WotSQ and FR should love this book. I'll definately be recommending this one. |
Lord Rad
"What? No, I wasn't reading your module. I was just looking at the pictures"
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Dart Ambermoon
Learned Scribe
Germany
253 Posts |
Posted - 07 Mar 2007 : 04:36:07
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Well met,
after a far too long absence from these fine halls I find its discussion is still inspiring. But to the point(s) here...
I must admit that I wasn´t too keen on the trilogy as, firstly, Lisa Smedman´s FR novels aren´t among what I would consider my personal favourites.
Secondly, by the end of WotSQ I didn´t give a rat´s furry backside about Halisstra anymore...in fact she annoyed the heck out of me.
Furthermore I was disturbed, big time, by the premise of the prologue. Lives of deities being wagered? It struck me as somewhat, hmm, irresponsible (on Eilistrae´s side) to wager the fate of all my followers on such a dare. And that is something I quite frankly would not have expected of her. Therefore I started on the novel from a "wft - please don´t tear the Realms asunder just yet again" perspective. Added to that I wasn´t too keen on another major shake-up of the drow so soon after he last one, but that´s neither here no there...
On the plus side, I will absolutely hand it to Lisa Smedman that this as her finest FR work regarding literature per se (in my humble opinion). I thought it was mostly very well written and managed to set a good atmosphere. I relly enjoyed reading it. I also noted (and applauded) the aforementioned nods to other FR fiction. I was surprised (positively so) at Halisstra´s role in the novel (aince it isn´t all about her) and I really liked her brother as character to some degree, especially for his difference in ambition and goals, regarding most other Drow.
The twists and turns in the story...hmm, I´m not buying all of them, which means I´m not entirely sure all of them are "logical" in light of plot and character, but that is only a feeling and I naturally will wait to see if that changes by the trilogy´s finale (which, of course, is the question that matters).
The "slaying" of two deities has been richly commented on, and I will wait and see what comes of it in the next two parts, although I wasn´t thrilled about it. But that may change, concerning where it leads.
I have three gripes about the novel, really...
1) The plot seemed just a little too construed. Thaleste finding something, only to be done in since they let a novice wander around alone in these dire times? After what had happened before? Ahem, and generally her finding something where the rest of the temple staff can find diddly squat? Jub overhearing just a little, which doesn´t help anything, and promptly buying the farm? Both Melarns shifting seeming allegiances so often, it makes you wonder if they´re not just both nutcases to begin with? Don´t get me wrong, I´m all for twists and turns, but some parts just seemed to twist and turn for the sake of twisting and turning. Now, I know all of that has been woven together, but I just didn´t buy it sometimes. It reminded me of "intelligent character must do s.th. stupid for dramatic suspense´s sake". A slower pace and less rushing to knife-edge decisions would have sat better with me. Not sending someone to the Abyss all on her lonesome with an entity posessed by Lolth and an absolute lack of planning to reclaim a prizless artifact for one. Sending an unproven to be the linchpin in an attempt to foil an attempted murder of a Godess the other.
2)I still don´t care for most of the characters. Cavatina annoyed the heck out of me with her sheer lack of concern for anything but her own thrill. Halisstra continuing her "Eilistrae forsook me.../Eilistrae didn´t forsake me.../I´m still a loose cannon, but one with fiendish powers now"-shtick. Vhaeraun (IF he relly died) for being so blatantly stupid to attempt his sister´s assassination on her home turf...and for having no real motivation for killing her just now anyway. Vhaeraun´s clerics planning on a deicide...exactly why? The clerics of Eilistrae, who I always regarded as being very adapt at defending themselves, since they managed to survive being surrounded by enemies for a long while, just being caught of guard again and again. Selvetarm for fricking scratching his chin while he was being killed...I know it has been adressed, but I thought it was tremendously stupid.
3)Which brings me to the whole scene in which Lolth´s champion dies...he is in control.He has her pinned down. He must surely recognize an artifact of another God (even though I´m not so sure about the Crescent Blade still serving Eilistrae´s faith) being bandied around under his nose. Neither have I understood how Halisstra jumped around there with the blade in her hands, nor how Cavatina actually managed the strike she managed, nor why on earth Selvetarm was looking for abyssal daisies during the whole scene, not paying any attention to his surrounding. Geez, I´d hate that in a mortal villain already, leave alone a God. So that scene really didn´t convince me at all. I agree about Lolth sacrificing him for a bigger gain, I just didn´t like how it was done. It seemed, again, like..."don´t do nothing, we need you to bite the bullet...now".
All in all, yes I did enjoy the novel...and I will wait if the next parts can make sense out of what didn´t make sense to me in the this one. (I just hope this doesn´t end with the race of the Drow unified under one deity, because all the others have beeen blasted to pieces.) |
~ In Finder I trust, for danger I lust ~ |
Edited by - Dart Ambermoon on 07 Mar 2007 04:40:55 |
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Braveheart
Learned Scribe
Austria
159 Posts |
Posted - 08 Mar 2007 : 09:27:52
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quote:
Originally posted by Dart Ambermoon
... nor why on earth Selvetarm was looking for abyssal daisies during the whole scene, not paying any attention to his surrounding.
I think that the attacks on the shrines and the temple of Eilistraee were a task that needed the full concentration of Selvetarm. Being a God of lesser power (or a demi-god) doesn't make you automatically a all seeing, all knowing entity
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Jarlaxle: "Do keep ever present in your thoughts, my friend, that an illusion can kill you if you believe in it."
Entreri: "And the real thing can kill you whether you believe in it or not." |
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Sacrifice of the Widow: Chapters 12 - 13 & Coda
