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darkhuntress
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
 Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 07:28:31
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New to the boards, but I just finished this book last night and just had to come yap about it. After the profound disappointment of WotSQ (I'm still bitter about Pharaun!) I was looking forward to Lady Penitent despite hating Halisstra, who apparently rode the short bus to the Demonweb Pits (the stupid burns, precious). I liked Smedman's entry in WotSQ a lot so I was disappointed by how much I didn't like this book after the first read. Dart Ambermoon pretty much summed up my thoughts on the matter, but I had some stuff to add.
Positives: I really liked some of the "off-hand" things, like the full moon gesture, that really gave some flavor to the proceedings. Also, Lisa Smedman very clearly did her homework! I like that, a lot. The sava game was brilliant, just brilliant. There was some beautiful imagery there, and also with the Eilistraeen rituals...I think Ms. Smedman has a really good feel for what they're like and a gift for describing them. Vhaeraun was awesome as usual, what can I say, I'm a chick with a thing for naughty masked pretty boys. The idea of him possibly teaming up with his sis makes me titter like a tittering thing. If it's true...well played, Smedman. Well played, indeed. And boy does it give me some ideas for my current FR campaign.
And, the negatives. I'm a huge fangirl of Eilistraee and her faith, and I've been really perturbed by the few portrayals of her clergy we've seen in the novels. This one was better, but the...fundamentalism bothered me greatly. Qilué's comment about leading the drow into the light "willingly or not" strikes me as a profoundly un-Eilistraeen sentiment to be espousing. I'm not sure when the Dark Maiden became about conversion by the sword, but it's a turn I don't like at all; to me, she's always been about giving drow a choice. After all, can someone truly be redeemed if they don't want to be? (Q'arlynd's actions show us very clearly the answer is "hells no") And when did the Eilistraeens get so misandrist? Sure, she only allows female priests, but I always chalked that up to a "women's mysteries" type of thing, like the mystery cults of ancient times where the women went off to do their thing and the men went off to do theirs. I couldn't stand any of the Eilistraeens in this novel, up to and including Qilué. If they were all as self-righteous and stupid as Cavantina 'n' pals, I'm not sure how they managed to survive and thrive all these years.Then again, with enemies as stupid as the Selvetarglin...ugh, just, no. Why on earth were they trying to break the seal on Cthulhu Ghaunadaur, anyway? Did they really think they could just waltz in, off Qilué, off Ghaunadaur and turn the Promenade into a Gold's Gym or something? Dude, WTF?
I won't comment on Selvetarm's death, I've always thought him boring as toast and am not really sad to see him go, but I agree with the folks who said there was a wasted opportunity for angst with his backstory.
The thing I disliked most on a storytelling basis was the fact that at no point in the book did I feel like any of the main characters were in actual danger. People being raised left and right sort of kills the sense of danger in a story and renders death pretty meaningless. I'm not really sure it's fair to criticize Ms. Smedman for it though. I think it's just one of those game-mechanic things that's disastrous when you're actually trying to tell a story, and one that can't really be ignored when you're dealing with oodles of powerful priests. Some fanboy somewhere will bring up what I like to call the Aerith Conundrum ("Why didn't they just Phoenix Down her?"). I couldn't be bothered to care about Iljerne's (sp?) death, despite how much I liked her in the Liriel books, because a) she was basically just a 2-d cardboard standee in this book and b) she'll just be raised anyway, like darn near everyone else.
Also, I'll admit to skimming most of the end fight with Qilué, because it was a stark reminder of just how overpowered and boring the Seven Sues Sisters are. Oh noes, Qilué got bitten. lol Selvetarglin, she's immune to everything. Oh noes, Qilué is cornered. Wait, she pwns them with munchkinfire, lol hax. Ye Gods, I hate them. Granted this also wasn't Ms. Smedman's fault, because really, Qilué's a legacy character in canon and the most prominent follower of Eilistraee can and should be used in a series that is ostensibly about the goddess' gamble for survival. It just reinforced my blinding hatred of the Seven Sues and why they've simply never existed in any of my FR campaigns. The prospect of Qilué vs. Lolth does intrigue me though, if only because it's one of the few times that someone's sacred cow's gonna become a Big Mac.  Also, too much happened too fast. I found it totally implausible the way Cavatina just waltzed into the Demonweb Pits and grabbed the Crescent Blade like it was nothing, particularly after the grief Quenthel's crew went through in WotSQ (and they weren't mortal enemies of Big Mama). I really hope that's something that is addressed in future books, because it just seemed way too easy. Ditto with whatever on earth happened with Vhaeraun and Eilistraee--that was pretty anticlimactic, despite the coolness of the moonfire the Vhaeraunites found themselves conjuring (I'm still laughing, 24 hours later. That just wins.). A confrontation as vitally important as that deserves to not happen offscreen.
Man, I really don't want to be such a negative nellie...I still think the premise of the series is sound and there's some awesome potential in a shakeup of my favorite pantheon. I like Smedman's writing style a lot and while I disagree with some of her characterization choices, I really like her take on the drow and their deities. I just think things should unfold a little slower in the future so we can get to know people and get a better feel for their motivations. I mainly felt like Ricky Ricardo when I put the book down; "Lisa, you got some 'splainin' to do!" |
"Do not mistake our kindness for gullibility, nor our hesitance to draw blades for cowardice. Contrary to what the spider kissers would have you believe, Dark Ladies are not addle-brained, pacifist weaklings. We'd have all died a long time ago if that were the case." --Lady Kariza de'Camyras, High Priestess of the Temple of the Silver Crescent |
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Uzzy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
618 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 18:41:05
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Well, I just read the last 150 pages of this in one sitting, so it's all rather fresh in my mind. Firstly, I have to congratulate Lisa on an excellent novel. I simply cannot wait for September and book two now! 
Seeing as the Halisstra was on the cover and focus of the blurb, it was slightly surprising how little screen time she had. No matter though, seeing as the other characters in the novel were nothing short of fantastic. Q'arlynd and Cavatina stand out for me as the real stars of this novel (who's progress in the book was so entwined with that of Halisstra's), with great support from the likes of Flinderspled and Jub. Qilue's scene with her in command of the Eilistraeens across Faerun via her scrying bowl was very interesting, I thought, as it showed them to be quite an organised and almost elite force.
All in all, I felt this book delivered on all fronts. Well written, well paced, excellent characters and some surprises. Is it me, or did this one novel have more of an impact on the Drow then the entire War of the Spider Queen novels? |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 18:47:36
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| Just my opinion, but unlike several others here I didn't think Halisstra lacked for screen time--for a character who remains mysterious, I think she showed up quite a lot. It's my opinion that while the series is about her (among other things), she's not the protagonist...at least not at this time. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 09 Mar 2007 18:48:04 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 18:54:59
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quote:
And, the negatives. I'm a huge fangirl of Eilistraee and her faith, and I've been really perturbed by the few portrayals of her clergy we've seen in the novels. This one was better, but the...fundamentalism bothered me greatly. Qilué's comment about leading the drow into the light "willingly or not" strikes me as a profoundly un-Eilistraeen sentiment to be espousing. I'm not sure when the Dark Maiden became about conversion by the sword, but it's a turn I don't like at all; to me, she's always been about giving drow a choice. After all, can someone truly be redeemed if they don't want to be?
That's a great point, and I am certainly of the opinion that "forced conversions" aren't really conversions at all. I can understand Cavatina espousing them (because we aren't being told that she's particularly merciful), but if the whole faith acts like that...it can't be right. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 09 Mar 2007 22:31:37 |
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Kentinal
Great Reader
4693 Posts |
Posted - 09 Mar 2007 : 19:47:36
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Well I can see convert or die option as an interpertation of the Dark Maiden's dogma.
Though it is not that simple, (rule 1) doing "Evil" merits a swift death, being "Evil" does not (rule 2) as no Drow should die (unless rule 1 applies). Then is rule three, bring the message of a rightfully place exists on the surface, those under rule 2 clearly should be invited, of course those under rule 1 are dead (or the follower of Eilistraee is).
To be tech correct the rules in order I persent in this example clearly might not be the rules order others would use. Some clearly could insist no Drow should die is more important then they are evil. The Silverhair Knights also come close to forced conversion by stripping away alignment (in game terms) / sins (in Role Play terms) from an Evil Drow that makes conversion easier (those saved generally select alignment of the Silverhair knight - which would be good as a component). |
"Small beings can have small wisdom," the dragon said. "And small wise beings are better than small fools. Listen: Wisdom is caring for afterwards."
"Caring for afterwards ...? Ker repeated this without understanding.
"After action, afterwards," the dragon said. "Choose the afterwards first, then the action. Fools choose action first."
"Judgement" copyright 2003 by Elizabeth Moon |
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darkhuntress
Acolyte
USA
17 Posts |
Posted - 11 Mar 2007 : 02:46:02
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quote:
That's a great point, and I am certainly of the opinion that "forced conversions" aren't really conversions at all. I can understand Cavatina espousing them (because we aren't being told that she's particularly merciful), but if the whole faith acts like that...it can't be right.
Not only are they not right, they're profoundly stupid, leading to situations like Q'arlynd's untimely betrayal (or worse, Halisstra's in Book VI of WotSQ). When you're dealing with a race as duplicitous as the Ssri'Tel'Quessir...dude, of course they're going to say anything to stay alive, up to and including taking false vows to another goddess. Eilistraee herself knows this. It's like accepting confessions under torture; of course the person's going to tell you what you want to hear. Whether or not it's the truth is a different matter.
I've had a thought about it, and I think it's just Cavatina's point of view that's the problem. From my understanding of the Darksong Knights, they're almost purely a militant order and they're not really concerned with making converts. So naturally she's going to have a different view of it than a priestess who spends most of her time tending the sick in the Hall of Healing or something.
...at least I hope. Because, if WotSQ and SotW are to be believed, I'm not really sure how the Dark Ladies have survived all these centuries. The quote in my sig line is an old PC of mine who "retired" to become High Priestess of an Eilistraeen temple in the High Forest, and that pretty much sums up Eilistraeens in my eyes: they're every bit as tough as their Lolthian counterparts, even merciless at times (they have to be); but it's a toughness tempered by wisdom. |
"Do not mistake our kindness for gullibility, nor our hesitance to draw blades for cowardice. Contrary to what the spider kissers would have you believe, Dark Ladies are not addle-brained, pacifist weaklings. We'd have all died a long time ago if that were the case." --Lady Kariza de'Camyras, High Priestess of the Temple of the Silver Crescent |
Edited by - darkhuntress on 11 Mar 2007 02:49:30 |
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initiate
Learned Scribe
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 20 Mar 2007 : 16:13:12
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Finished the book,
Before I start, I apologize if ever I state my opinions too strongly when talking about this book. Discussing the over-all drow story always, always brings out the worst in me. Also, my arguments may drift back and forth between considering the Realms as a setting and considering it as a line of novels. I haven't yet read all the way through this thread, so I hope that I won't restate any opinions. I have much to say about both this section and the book in general, but I'll get some of my opinions out in the open first...
There have been some suggestions 'round these parts that Lisa Smedman might kill Lolth and that this would be "unfair". First and foremost, keep in mind the words of the Great Business Manual of WotC, (which I just made up, but can still, I think, quote accurately):
"Yay, and then did the marketing department stand tall, place hands o'ere hearts and cry:...
LONG! Live! LOLTH! May thy symbolic connections to ebon-skinned, lavender-eyed renegades translate into scads and scads of coin all down the ages! May thy spiders scurry for many years to come! No blade shall pierce thee. No spell shall sear thee; while we guard thee."
Seriously, all cynicism aside, unless I miss my guess by a very wide margin Lolth ain't going no place. I'm guessing again, but I'd say that its probably not Lisa Smedman's decision whether Lolth dies or not; such a choice is up to WotC. Lolth is central to the overall concept of the drow in the Realms, and the drow are in turn central to said Realms in so far as they're very popular. Thus, purely as a statement without subjective bias, I expect Lolth to remain enthroned for quite some time yet. Also, I seem to remember Ed Greenwood answering a question here at Candlekeep that he suspected Lolth would remain the most powerful drow deity, so there you go.
However, let's talk "what if?" I'll admit that I enjoy Lolth and her priestesses as villains. However, it boggles me that people can consider their failure "unfair". At the conclusion of the War of the Spider Queen, said Queen rose from her silence stronger than ever she had been before. The priestesses of Eilistraee sent into her plain were killed, their holy? sword broken, and their champion reduced to a groveling heap of semi-repentant angst and then transformed into a freakshow. Lolth. Was. Victorious. ... Hoo. Rah. Lolth's power has been proven on several other occasions which would take us too far off topic to discuss fully. Lolth's had her day; as a matter of fact, she's had several. I would shed no tears at the death of Lolth, but I do not expect to have the opportunity to abstain from said tears at the end of this trilogy.
If the problem has to do with a general proliferation of points for the side of good, then there's an interesting discussion going on over in the novels section called Are the "Good Guys" Winning Too Much? Lots of excellent discourse. My points very briefly, however, (lots of general spoiler): Within the last few years we've seen the return of Bane and a significant elevation in Lolth's status. Szass Tam appears to be readying a major bid for power in Thay. The Shades have returned and made significant gains, (though these may be called into question.) Several major invasions have been only bearly driven back. The elves have just recently regained Myth Drannor, and are only just getting to grips with the fact that they have done so. It may take a century or so to really manifest Miyeritar's potential, and one of the Chosen was lost in its reclamation. I'd say we're still pretty much square. Even if we're not, so what? Is it so terrible that those who aspire to freedom and are, at least theoretically, kind and caring should triumph over those who are cruel and callous? More specifically, is there such a great problem, (aside from the realism in the disparity of their power), in Eilistraee scoring a point or two, (or ten), against the hideously powerful, vile and cappricious Spider Queen? I don't wish to take the book club off topic, but these are some points to ponder and I think they do relate to this trilogy.
All this being said, I agree that the butchery of the entire Dark Seldarine would be a shame. While I hope that Kaiaransalee and Ghaunadaur are involved in the trilogy, I would also hope that they won't croak, (and even if they do, I would like it to at least occur in a rather more spectacular way than did Selvetarm's demise. More on that in another post, however.)
I would strongly suspect that we're not done with Vhaeraun. Again, more on this later, though other scribes have more or less covered it.
I apologize for the stridency of my opinions; like I said the drow have a tendency to get me worked up. (I believe Ed Greenwood's commented on the drow being a subject of much emotional strain among Realms fans. Interesting and rather amusing, really.)
Also, I liked the book. Specific opinions to come.
I would close with a point only vaguely related to the above. While my favourite-characters-can-do-no-wrong instinct urges me not to, I'd like to draw your collective attention to a quote spoken by Qilue right near the end of the book which goes something like: "Willingly or no, the drow will be brought into the light."
Willingly or no?
Hmm...
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ywhtptgtfo
Seeker
89 Posts |
Posted - 25 May 2007 : 17:10:28
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quote:
Originally posted by darkhuntress The quote in my sig line is an old PC of mine who "retired" to become High Priestess of an Eilistraeen temple in the High Forest, and that pretty much sums up Eilistraeens in my eyes: they're every bit as tough as their Lolthian counterparts, even merciless at times (they have to be);
A rather blasphemous notion. Lolth constantly tests her followers and selects for the best among them. As a result, they should be considerably more powerful than the Eilistraeens, on average.
quote:
but it's a toughness tempered by wisdom.
Is that to say the Lolthlites are unwise? |
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Chyron
Learned Scribe
Hong Kong
279 Posts |
Posted - 29 May 2007 : 07:14:30
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I just finished reading this and thought I would leave a few comments.
Interestingly this book left me with a completely opposite feeling to that of the WotSQ series. By the end of that series I felt that I had just spent countless hours reading 6 novels to basically end where I began (with so few major changes coming about I questioned why the series actually warranted a sextology.)
Now however, we are given major changes in a single (and rather short) book. I ultimately felt that things were rushed along almost as if in response to many of the criticisms leveled at the WothSQ series. While this novel did a good job at addressing questions (like what Qilue was doing during those earlier all important events), I found myself never really connecting and liking any of the key players here.
I have read many of the theories and comments left by other posters and would like to pose some of my own.
I tend to agree that Vhaeraun was absorbed by Eilistraee, however I am not so sure that they fought. Since we are never given any direct insight into this confrontation in the novel and since his piece is still in play on the sava board, I am thinking that Vhaeraun may have willingly merged with Eilistraee. Perhaps as a temporary alliance. Recall that he apparently helps her secretly in the opening of the book.
Also as the events wind down Qilue is visible agitated and angry, which is mentioned as traits she has never before openly shown…it could be the stress of the prior events or it could be some of the darker effects of Eilistraee’s merging upon her chosen.
I agree with the posters above in that I found some of the Eilistraeen tenants of conversion a bit disturbing, but I did like the way that Q’arlynd found such striking similarities between the matriarchal nature of both Lolth’s and Eilistraee’s faith. Perhaps this is another reason for the merge of the two portfolios (to present a united front of males and females against Lolth).
As darkhuntress mentioned I was also miffed about Pharuan’s treatment at the conclusion of WotSQ and with all the resurrections going about, I was hoping that we might be seeing him again or possibly Valas Hune ( I have heard he pops up in Road of the Patriarch, which I am anxiously waiting for in July).
Finally, I get the feeling that the Cresent Sword is not fully intact and may in fact be corrupted some how. It just seemed overly domineering for a Eilistraeen artifact ( I was reminded of Creshinibon).
Still I am looking forward to see how the series pans out…but with such major events happening in the first book, one has to wonder, ‘where can the author go from here?’
anyway thats my two coppers
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Just My Thoughts
Chyron :)
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Edited by - Chyron on 30 May 2007 18:29:38 |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2007 : 00:44:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Chyron
As darkhuntress mentioned I was also miffed about Pharuan’s treatment at the conclusion of WotSQ and with all the resurrections going about, I was hoping that we might be seeing him again or possibly Valas Hune ( I have heard he pops up in Road of the Patriarch, which I am anxiously waiting for in July).
I read Road of the Patriarch fairly recently, but I am almost 100% sure Valas Hune does not appear in that book. Sorry to disappoint.
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"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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initiate
Learned Scribe
Canada
102 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2007 : 15:08:14
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Chyron, I agree with your thoughts on the book pretty much completely, [except being sort of ambivalent about the potential return of Pharaun Mizzrym. . . He lost some of his charm as a character around half way through the WotSQ in my opinion.]
I think you're entirely right about the War of the Spider Queen; while I certainly don't demand or want Realms shaking events in everything Realms related I read, I found myself feeling resentful, [also bored], that I'd been put through six books, filled with well realized but ultimately depressing characters, to reach the end we were given. So Lolth moved up the food chain; the duergar attacked Menzoberranzan and got beaten up; Gromph killed a rather remarkable lich, [took him long enough]. . . All cool and interesting, but six hardcover novels just so that Lolth could move house. . . That's quite the change of address card. I enjoyed each individual entry to one extent or another, and am glad the authors involved were given this chance to perhaps become a little more well known. It was the ultimate effect of the whole that I had problems with.
Again, I think you're right about Sacrifice of the Widow. It's too short rather than too long. I thought that some of the major events near the end of the book, while very interesting, were rushed over relatively quickly, Selvatarm's death in particular. It just somehow seemed summarized and rushed. It lacked epic punch. I just did not get the sense that: A. God. Had. Died. This Day. Selvatarm's "second death" made up for this somewhat, and was much more the stuff to give the readers, but I still wish the initial confrontation had been given a bit more leg room.
As for speculation about the Vhaeraun thing. . . I just dunno. Good thing Storm of the Dead is only four months away.
Oh, and Valas Hune is in Road of the Patriarch. . . for about two seconds, with one mention and no dialogue. . . Sorry.
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 30 May 2007 : 23:47:03
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quote:
Originally posted by initiate
Oh, and Valas Hune is in Road of the Patriarch. . . for about two seconds, with one mention and no dialogue. . . Sorry.
Yeah, that sounds about right. The fact that I didn't even remember him being mentioned should say something about his appearance.
I've been thinking about the Eilistraeen "talking point" that's caused some controversy: "All drow will be brought to the light, willingly or no". That may be something Eilistraee intends to do (and again, we don't know the minds of gods), but I'm not positively sure that it's a mandate for followers of Eilistraee to convert people at swordpoint. After all, most converts aren't "willing" converts at the very beginning--it takes time for them to change. So the offending phrase might have more to do with spirituality and Eilistraee subtly affecting people than militant priestesses holding forced religious conversions. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 31 May 2007 : 14:14:47
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
I've been thinking about the Eilistraeen "talking point" that's caused some controversy: "All drow will be brought to the light, willingly or no". That may be something Eilistraee intends to do (and again, we don't know the minds of gods), but I'm not positively sure that it's a mandate for followers of Eilistraee to convert people at swordpoint. After all, most converts aren't "willing" converts at the very beginning--it takes time for them to change. So the offending phrase might have more to do with spirituality and Eilistraee subtly affecting people than militant priestesses holding forced religious conversions.
Cavatina, at least, seems to take it the latter way. I might be misreading, but it definitely seems like she a) stops the Vhaeraunite in the cocoon from de-poisoning himself and b) suffocates him when he won't convert. And he was just hanging around wrapped up and poisoned, not exactly in a position where I imagine some "quick and dirty" messaging would be necessary. Of course, it's evident her heart wasn't exactly into the whole thing (at least when it comes to males) but if the Vhaeraunite had said okay under those circumstances I'd certainly consider it forced.
Juxtaposed with that incident, "willingly or no" does take on something of an ugly undertone. |
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Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2007 : 01:15:17
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quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Cavatina, at least, seems to take it the latter way.
No question there, but her actions might not reflect the actual spirit of the statement. That was my point. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
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TobyKikami
Learned Scribe
USA
113 Posts |
Posted - 01 Jun 2007 : 01:44:38
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quote:
Originally posted by Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
quote:
Originally posted by TobyKikami
Cavatina, at least, seems to take it the latter way.
No question there, but her actions might not reflect the actual spirit of the statement. That was my point.
Still, the behavior of "Our Heroine" along with the apparent trend of the Eilistraeens in general doesn't really incline me to view such a phrase in a very fluffybunny light... which, I suppose, is why you pointed out the not-so-obvious possibility. Touché. |
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Sacrifice of the Widow: Chapters 12 - 13 & Coda
