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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 05:11:12
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
Agreed on the call for diversity of artwork. There's plenty of room for the cheesy, the skimpy, and the well-endowed. It's just that not EVERY FEMALE CHARACTER has to fall into that category. I want a range of body types, clothing styles, etc. A character should not have to be sex-candy to be attractive, appealing, or interesting to look at.
Cheers
Yes, right on!
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 05:47:08
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When I say "white people" in D&D art, I mean the vast majority of the human characters we see in D&D art. That is, people with pale skin and facial features/bone structure we associate with pale-skinned humans of European extraction in our world. (A person having a tan does NOT count.)
I don't want anyone to open up a D&D sourcebook or look at the cover art on a novel and say "there's no one here that looks anything like me."
And let me be clear, I believe this IS happening, at least to some extent. The 4e races weren't all lily-skinned white people (well, the elves are pretty pale, but look at the halflings in the PHB1 for instance). And I want to see the trend continue.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 06:53:14
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quote:
Originally posted by Erik Scott de Bie
When I say "white people" in D&D art, I mean the vast majority of the human characters we see in D&D art. That is, people with pale skin and facial features/bone structure we associate with pale-skinned humans of European extraction in our world. (A person having a tan does NOT count.)
I don't want anyone to open up a D&D sourcebook or look at the cover art on a novel and say "there's no one here that looks anything like me."
And let me be clear, I believe this IS happening, at least to some extent. The 4e races weren't all lily-skinned white people (well, the elves are pretty pale, but look at the halflings in the PHB1 for instance). And I want to see the trend continue.
Cheers
Sure.
You wrote something with a Shou character, is that correct? Did she get art?
Are the writers mostly writing stories set in Waterdeep,the Moonshaes, Cormyr, the North, and the Dales? The art direction for those areas has pretty consistently portrayed 'European' looking people. It did so before all that later 2E/3E stuff on the appearance of ethnic groups was detailed in one place, I'm fairly sure. Look in the Old Grey Box.
My OGB doesn't give much info on what people from different regions or 'races' look like. The art canon developed a look for parts of the Realms before races of Faerun came out.
IMO, Cormyrians are probably more or less 'Mediterranean' in looks, with some being quite fair and others being tan or light brown. That's how I am reading the info you guys gave. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 27 Aug 2012 08:37:41 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 07:41:15
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| combatmedic I don't think it was necessary for you to become so hostile and combative...and derailing the thread completely. sigh. |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 07:42:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Gabrielle_H
I'm in favor of diversity in the way that ZeshinX and Erik Scott de Bie mentioned it in the Candlekeep Seminar wrap-up scroll -- that is, in ways that give the author freedom to write what they want to write, rather than instituting a diversity "quota."
I think that anyone who reads the "Ask Ed" scroll knows that sexuality is quite fluid in the realms. I'm always happy to see a bit more of that sort of thing when it contributes to story. It is a part of the world, albeit a quiet part, so showing it where it's relevant helps to round out the world. It shows more "slices of life," which is where Realms novels really shine for me.
But I'm not going to complain when novels are written about straight, mainstream characters, either. I'm a fan of engaging story in all its forms.
I just don't want any alternate romance to be the focus of a story. I stopped reading Marvel's X Factor because I got tired of Shatterstar and Rictor's relationship. It was way more pervasive than the romance plot should have been.
I can happily read about a homosexual lead character, but sometimes I feel like TOO much focus is brought in to the sexuality in many of those cases. That is what Peter David did with XFACTOR. Too many pages were taken up with Rictor and Shatterstar, and their teammates reactions to it.
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A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 08:30:19
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| I'm sending you a PM, Hedgehog. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 14:17:54
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
BTW, according to some women's beauty sites, this is 'tawny skin':
http://www.beautyandstyle.com/hair-beauty/makeup/color-trends/perfect-colors-tawny-skin
http://www.instyle.com/instyle/package/general/photos/0,,20337040_20416247_20835073,00.html#
http://www.wallpaperextreme.com/Wallpapers-Eva-Mendes/Eva-Mendes-81.JPG.html
I don’t know about you, but I could fairly describe all three women as 'white.' Eva Mendes is an American of Spanish ancestry by way of Cuba. Spaniards are white, aren't they?
Lindsay Price's mother is of Korean ancestry. Her dad has ancestors from Germany and Ireland.
I don't know the name or background of the first woman, but the pic is tagged mulatto beauty. She does look as if she has a mix of fair skinned European and dark skinned African ancestry. The ‘white European’ features seem to dominate. She could 'pass' as 'white' in much of the United States.
So, you see how useless it is to talk about 'white people' when nobody knows what you mean.
Or do you mean that all the characters on novel covers look like (not are) very pale Northern European natives?
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
IMO, Cormyrians are probably more or less 'Mediterranean' in looks, with some being quite fair and others being tan or light brown. That's how I am reading the info you guys gave.
I'm basing my description of tawny skin off two things. First, I'm basing it off the actual color. Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tawny_%28color%29
Second, this aligns with some of the images we've seen drawn of specific characters, such as Alusair Obarskyr. Link: http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57087/forgottenrealms/images/f/fa/Alusair_Obarskyr.JPG
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 14:54:28
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I would call that pic of Alusair 'white.'
Not to mention she was fair skinned with light blond hair in the 2E era pics I have seen.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 27 Aug 2012 15:52:04 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 15:04:07
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I’ve known people with 'tawny skin.' They had skin like Eva Mendes, not the same color as those owls. The word is actually used in colloquial speech. It is used in the cosmetics industry.
How many 'white' people are actually white? I'm not. I don't know anyone who is. Albinos (who can be of any ethnic origin--including various 'black' populations) Most of us are peach, beige, tan, fair, etc but not literally white.
How many 'black' people are literally black and not some shade of brown?
YMMV
addendum-
This is not to suggest that your interpretation is invalid.
It's hardly the only way to read the lore. That’s something nice about this setting. Your reading is just as valid as mine.
I actually ran a game set in Cormyr. I didn't mention skin color with all characters because it wasn't necessary, but there were NPCs who were tan, olive, or 'tawny.' I didn't even know about the line from RoF, which I wasn't using. I just figured that some of the Turmishites and other darker peoples on the southern shores of the Inner Sea must have mixed with the fair northern peoples. Think of Italy, if you'd like a real world example.
In my Cormyr, an Ethiopian, a Sicilian, and a Norman could walk down the street and pass for natives if they had the right clothes and mannerisms.
In my Faerun, I have always assumed that in a few regions a given look is often considered especially attractive. Classic Mulan looks in the Old Empires make one seem ‘aristocratic.’ Many people have a broader view of these things. You can bet the Pasha in Calimport has girls of every shade and hue in his harem. No hard color prejudice exists anyplace among humans. Like the Ancient and Medieval Old World, humans are divided on the basis of ethnicity (not ‘race’), religion, politics, rank, language, etc. Ethnocentrism and class snobbery exist, but nothing like 19th/20th century scientific racism.
Given the numerous nonhuman types, many of which are hostile, humans have less incentive to ‘Otherize’ other humans. Hate those darned drow. They worship a giant spider demon, eat babies, and use witchcraft to dry up cow udders.Hate the trolls who ate your best horse. Heck, hate those obnoxious sun elves. Hate an Illuskan because his skin is pale or a Turmishite because his is mahogany? That makes no sense.
YMMV, of course. This is just how I run it.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 27 Aug 2012 15:39:49 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 17:22:16
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I was thinking on this a bit last night and discussing this sort of thing with my wife, whose sister is married to another woman.
I figured out why I can be turned off by a gay character and there are really only two conditions.
1) There is more focus on their romantic pursuit than would be the norm for a heterosexual character. If a homosexual character is treated with the same romantic level as found commonly in most FR books I am OK with that.
2) Too much focus is given to the character's psychology specifically referencing their homosexuality. It is in no way callous, actually. I am well aware of the struggles my gay friends have gone through. I just don't want to read about it. There will be some level of that otherwise you get tokenism, but a character whose struggle is having his sexuality accepted within the Forgotten Realms, is going to lose me.
Lets assume that the church of Helm does not accept homesexuality (I am not claiming it doesn't, or that it should be that way). A story about a gay Paladin or priest, who must hide this fact gives an interesting story. The Paladin is successful in the plot, saving the church's interest, and during the adventure eyes are turned to his 'secret'. The church must decide if he is still an acceptable member of the clergy.
On the other hand this can quickly lead into the psychology of the struggle, which I understand others may find interesting. I would lose interest in that case.
I would rather have a character, that is gay, and have decisions based on that. When the struggle is brought into focus it gets to preachy, and I lose my immersion. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
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BEAST
Master of Realmslore
USA
1714 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 18:04:45
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With the late Anne McCaffrey's "Dragonriders of Pern" sci-fant series, Terran colonist of the future supposedly settled another planet, and the series follows several millenia of the colonists' history. The space colony ships transport Terrans of all races, and when they arrive on the planet, the hardships there force the Terrans to cooperate together, or die. There is never any notion of settling in race-based communities or what-not, so the actual settlements are just as diverse as the ship populations were.
On her former message boards, we fans decided that the population of that planet probably intermarried and interbred so diversely that there was no particularly discernable race or ethnicity within the people anymore. They had probably all become just one great big, tawny brown, mixed race.
And that's probably why we never read about race ever posing a problem amongst the inhabitants, there. It just never was a phenomenon there, so it could never become a problem. |
"'You don't know my history,' he said dryly."
--Drizzt Do'Urden (The Pirate King, Part 1: Chapter 2)
<"Comprehensive Chronology of R.A. Salvatore Forgotten Realms Works"> |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 18:10:25
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@combatmedic: It seems like what we should be talking about in actuality is the artistic presentation of the Realms and the character art in associated sourcebooks. How characters look in fiction depends a great deal on your own imagination. No one has ever seen an image of Kalen Dren (my main character from Shadowbane) without his helmet, and other than the fact he has dark hair and is lighter than Myrin (who is very dark in coloration), I haven't gone into specifics of his skin tone. You're free to imagine whatever you want.
When it's presented graphically, however, it's a different story, and I think it's not unreasonable to expect more diversity in artistic renderings.
@Mournblade: I don't think anyone is suggesting a Realms story about a gay male protagonist needs to be about his struggles to hide/accept/earn acceptance for his sexuality, or even about his sexuality at all. There's certainly a temptation to explore that in a major way, just because writing a gay male character in the Realms would be breaking new ground, but I think it's just as (if not more) effective to write him as just "one of the guys," with his sexual preferences being totally accepted and not in the least bit strange. There might be some NPCs he encounters along the way who are weirded out or disapprove, but that's no more or less likely than encountering NPCs who disapprove of an elven romantic partner or a half-orc. The tension he should deal with is that he is "different" from the baseline, but not "transgressing" against it. If that makes sense?
Partly, because it would make very little sense for a gay male character to be weird in the Realms, simply because homosexuality is way more accepted in the Realms than in our own world. The people of the Realms just don't get so hung up or stressed out about a simple thing like sex. I think being open and (dare I say) sex-positive about it like in the Realms is what we should strive for in our world.
That note on churches is an interesting one: Are there any churches in the Realms that take a hard line against homosexuality or other forms of sexual expression? I can't think of any in the canon Realmslore, but we could speculate.
For instance, I imagine that in Chauntea's church, procreation is heavily pushed and priests are expected to produce children themselves at some point (not a requirement, but encouraged). I don't see this extending to a declaration against non-procreative sex, only that IN ADDITION to whatever else you want to do, you should have or adopt children. Eh?
On the other side of the aisle, in Tempus's chuch, sexual relationships of all sorts are probably encouraged, as having that kind of connection to a fellow warrior can inspire you to fight harder. And on the flipside, jealousy begets conflict, which glorifies Tempus--no doubt duels between jealous lovers happen all the time, ending in the jealous partners reconciling with some healthy angry sex.
It would be interesting to see how the different churches regard sex, marriage, child-birth, etc, among their priests. Just one little nugget that would go in this great big Gods of the Realms sourcebook I'm envisioning.
And on a larger scale, is it even beneficial to create such things as organizations that are against one particular minority? Where does it fall on the social commentary vs. escapism scale?
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Aldrick
Senior Scribe
909 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 18:54:47
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combatmedic -
Here is a cosmetic foundation chart: http://www.mineral-makeup-reviews.com/images/GloMinerals-Pressed-Mineral-Foundation.jpg
In my home games, I'd describe native Cormyrean's as having skin tones that range from light honey to dark honey. Skin tones would also include Light Tawny and Medium Tawny. The lighter someones skin tone the stronger their Netherese heritage, as many Netherese survivors immigrated to the region. The darker skin complexions indicate stronger Tethyrian bloodlines.
According to races of Faerûn Cormyr is made up of 85% Chondathans, 12% Tethyrians, 2% Vaasans, and 1% Other / Unknown.
The Vaasan complexion ranges from fair to olive, and they get that fair complexion from the Netherese immigrants who settled the Moonsea region after the Fall of Netheril.
All the above being said; we're not really in disagreement about anything. Everyone's perception of skin tones can vary on what we consider 'white', 'black', 'brown', 'yellow', or whatever. The only reason I'm belaboring the point is because I'd like to see the artwork reflect as accurately as possible what the people of the Realms actually look like... and I don't imagine most of the Realms looking like they're fresh off the boat from Ireland or some place in Scandinavia.
I also agree that most people in the Realms are not focused on skin color. They're focused on ethnic background and country of origin. They'd also judge people based upon their race and the stereotypes about that race. That was my point when I previously mentioned how a Calishite would react to seeing an Illuskan. The fact that the Illuskan has fair-skin is only an indicator of his Illuskan bloodline, and not necessarily his heritage.
For example, imagine an Illuskan that was walking around dressed as a Calishite, was raised in Calimshan, and spoke perfect native Alzhedo. The Calishite will likely regard him as part of his culture, despite his skin tone, and would likely make remarks something along the lines: 'Ah, it is good to see someone of your blood capable of leaving behind his savage barbarism and embracing real culture! Your parents were right to raise you as a Calishite.'
People in Faerûn don't judge people by their skin color; they judge people by their race (elf, human, dwarf, etc.), country of origin (Cormyr, Zhentil Keep, Thay, etc.), and ethnic background (Illuskan, Calishite, Chondathan, etc.). |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 27 Aug 2012 : 23:29:43
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| Mournblade I would personally prefer if there were not any prejudices against sexual minorities mentioned in the realms. It could be present without being commented as unusual or with shock. I would prefer to think of no realms church or society ( whether evil or good or rigid ) condemning it. Although the novels have explored prejudices between humans, elves, dwarves, orcs, etc. It seems like within species racism could simply not exist. Do gold dwarves need to think megativethings about shield dwarves to be realistic? I dont think so. We can already find analogies for prejudice in the experiences of characters like drizzt. |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 00:04:47
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| And yet we DO have a high incidence of inter-species racism among elves and dwarves. Elves hate drow(and vice-versa) based mainly on skin-color (it's pretty blatantly obvious if an elf is drow). Same with Druagar and other dwarves. They make stereotypical judgements based almost entirely on color, even before they know what the other person is like! That's a pretty extreme case of racism within species. Even the different branches of elves are looked at differently- for instance, a gold elf looks down on a moon elf out of hand (I'm speaking typically, here, of course) and how does he KNOW what "race" another elf is? By skin, hiar, and eye colors, usually. Each branch has certain tones of the abocve that are "normal" for their type. Dwarves as well. So there certainly CAN be racial judgements between members of the various humanoid races. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 00:15:29
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And yet we DO have a high incidence of inter-species racism among elves and dwarves. Elves hate drow(and vice-versa) based mainly on skin-color (it's pretty blatantly obvious if an elf is drow). Same with Druagar and other dwarves. They make stereotypical judgements based almost entirely on color, even before they know what the other person is like! That's a pretty extreme case of racism within species. Even the different branches of elves are looked at differently- for instance, a gold elf looks down on a moon elf out of hand (I'm speaking typically, here, of course) and how does he KNOW what "race" another elf is? By skin, hiar, and eye colors, usually. Each branch has certain tones of the abocve that are "normal" for their type. Dwarves as well. So there certainly CAN be racial judgements between members of the various humanoid races.
I am not going to stop playing enmity between races, or enmity between sub races, because of racism in the real world. The last thing the Realms needs to be is a place for us to project real world cultural concerns. I don't think being careful to write races all getting along with each other, and having everything accepted ALL THE TIME, makes for compelling stories.
I could definitely see churches having different opinions on homosexuality. It is already something I explore in my home game. I am a progressive individual, and I feel most people can handle that sort of thing.
I see political correctness as a sterilizing force. People must be aware of other viewpoints, but writers should not be afraid to include subject matter because it might offend someone. They should be careful how it is treated, and not treat subjects offensively, but SOMEONE will always be offended at SOMETHING, and writers can't be held accountable for that. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 28 Aug 2012 00:17:32 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 01:14:27
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I don't want us to go too far down the elves vs. drow route, as that gets into the racism discussion pretty fast, but I do want to point out that surface elves don't hate drow on the basis of skin color (or vice versa) alone. Rather, it's that skin color (and general appearance) of those races carries with it a whole lot of other indications about the creature. Seeing a drow, you might make the (granted, prejudicial) judgments that the drow is dangerous, deadly, and evil. But in a world where evil really does exist and entire "races" of people are indeed evil, you're actually right 99% of the time to make those judgments, and it's a good thing too, because they might let you survive the encounter. This is something that we don't get in the real world--if you make those judgments about a person based on appearance in the real world, then you are a racist jerk, not a pragmatist.
D&D is generally not a forum where racism is an appropriate discussion topic. It just doesn't connect with the real world in that way. I think it's more useful to use fantasy (or science fiction) to show people of various different colors and backgrounds working together for a common goal. Sure, they may not correspond to actual races, but that's a gold-plated way to draw in audience members of various different colors and backgrounds themselves.
I think the Realms should be in the business of showing cooperation among races, as well as highlighting diversity in a way that makes those differences a source of celebration rather than tension.
I also think it needs to be done responsibly to avoid unfortunate real-world parallels. If I were to write a Chultan man as a "noble savage"/"exotic native tribesman," that very easily comes off as hilariously racist.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 01:48:18
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| Don't worry, Erik, I wasn't suggesting we go that way. Just that it's something that happens in the Realms just as in RL. You're right about it being correct in most cases (that's what the Descent was all about, after all) but there is also the point where even just seeing a drow walking down the street (like Drizzt in Silverymoon) might lead to packs of pitchfork-wielding locals chasing after said drow. I seem to recall Liriel and Fyodor getting into almost that exact predicament, as a matter of fact! |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 04:11:35
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quote:
Originally posted by Mournblade
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
And yet we DO have a high incidence of inter-species racism among elves and dwarves. Elves hate drow(and vice-versa) based mainly on skin-color (it's pretty blatantly obvious if an elf is drow). Same with Druagar and other dwarves. They make stereotypical judgements based almost entirely on color, even before they know what the other person is like! That's a pretty extreme case of racism within species. Even the different branches of elves are looked at differently- for instance, a gold elf looks down on a moon elf out of hand (I'm speaking typically, here, of course) and how does he KNOW what "race" another elf is? By skin, hiar, and eye colors, usually. Each branch has certain tones of the abocve that are "normal" for their type. Dwarves as well. So there certainly CAN be racial judgements between members of the various humanoid races.
I am not going to stop playing enmity between races, or enmity between sub races, because of racism in the real world. The last thing the Realms needs to be is a place for us to project real world cultural concerns. I don't think being careful to write races all getting along with each other, and having everything accepted ALL THE TIME, makes for compelling stories.
I could definitely see churches having different opinions on homosexuality. It is already something I explore in my home game. I am a progressive individual, and I feel most people can handle that sort of thing.
I see political correctness as a sterilizing force. People must be aware of other viewpoints, but writers should not be afraid to include subject matter because it might offend someone. They should be careful how it is treated, and not treat subjects offensively, but SOMEONE will always be offended at SOMETHING, and writers can't be held accountable for that.
I agree with this as far as the novel line goes. I think the game books should avoid real world political controversy.Novels are not games, after all. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 05:12:16
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quote:
Originally posted by Aldrick
combatmedic -
Here is a cosmetic foundation chart: http://www.mineral-makeup-reviews.com/images/GloMinerals-Pressed-Mineral-Foundation.jpg
In my home games, I'd describe native Cormyreans as having skin tones that range from light honey to dark honey. Skin tones would also include Light Tawny and Medium Tawny. The lighter someones skin tone the stronger their Netherese heritage, as many Netherese survivors immigrated to the region. The darker skin complexions indicate stronger Tethyrian bloodlines.
According to races of Faerûn Cormyr is made up of 85% Chondathans, 12% Tethyrians, 2% Vaasans, and 1% Other / Unknown.
The Vaasan complexion ranges from fair to olive, and they get that fair complexion from the Netherese immigrants who settled the Moonsea region after the Fall of Netheril.
All the above being said; we're not really in disagreement about anything. Everyone's perception of skin tones can vary on what we consider 'white', 'black', 'brown', 'yellow', or whatever. The only reason I'm belaboring the point is because I'd like to see the artwork reflect as accurately as possible what the people of the Realms actually look like... and I don't imagine most of the Realms looking like they're fresh off the boat from Ireland or some place in Scandinavia.
I also agree that most people in the Realms are not focused on skin color. They're focused on ethnic background and country of origin. They'd also judge people based upon their race and the stereotypes about that race. That was my point when I previously mentioned how a Calishite would react to seeing an Illuskan. The fact that the Illuskan has fair-skin is only an indicator of his Illuskan bloodline, and not necessarily his heritage.
For example, imagine an Illuskan that was walking around dressed as a Calishite, was raised in Calimshan, and spoke perfect native Alzhedo. The Calishite will likely regard him as part of his culture, despite his skin tone, and would likely make remarks something along the lines: 'Ah, it is good to see someone of your blood capable of leaving behind his savage barbarism and embracing real culture! Your parents were right to raise you as a Calishite.'
People in Faerûn don't judge people by their skin color; they judge people by their race (elf, human, dwarf, etc.), country of origin (Cormyr, Zhentil Keep, Thay, etc.), and ethnic background (Illuskan, Calishite, Chondathan, etc.).
Yeah, we are in agreement on everything important.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 06:05:27
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quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
But they describe the SAME world, so you can't have it in one and not the other. That would just be unrealistic. And there have always been real-world issues in the game and novels both. One only has to look at groups like the Eldreth Veluuthra(SP?) or the Red Wizards or Church of Cyric or Bane to see certain parallels. And there are countless other examples.
I'm pretty sure there's nothing like the Church of Cyric in the real world.
''HAHAHAHAH DO IT FOR TEH EVULZ’’ is not really a great pitch for getting people to join your church.
Let me explain futher about the differences I see between the needs and natures of the game line and the novel line:
1) The novels are stories written by authors.
2) The sourcebooks and modules are play aids for DMs and players.
3) Game design and writing fiction are not equivalent activities, in part because gameplay and reading fiction are such different things. What makes for a good game is not necessarily what makes for good literature.
4) An unpopular novel loses less money than an unpopular sourcebook. Sourcebooks and other game materials are expensive.
Why should Hasbro risk alienating a sizeable numbers of their customers by giving them a lot of material they don’t want or need? Why should Hasbro risk raising the ire of either social conservative groups or progressive groups who object to some aspect of the game? Of course the game can’t and shouldn’t be sterilized of any offensive or controversial content to suit critics, but it seems like bad business to wade into the ‘culture wars.’ Instead, Hasbro should concentrate on making a fun game that has broad appeal.
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YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 28 Aug 2012 06:11:22 |
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combatmedic
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 06:10:10
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I'd like to add that a fansite like Candlekeep is a great place for people to discuss and share information on things like 'sexuality in FR' that would not belong in most game products.
When I say I think the 'political content' of the game books should remain low, I am not referring to fanzines, these forums, or anything of that nature. |
YMMV= Your Mileage May Vary. I'm putting it here so I don't have to type it in every other post. :) |
Edited by - combatmedic on 28 Aug 2012 06:10:53 |
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MrHedgehog
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 08:05:59
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I mostly read the game modules and aids for entertainment not for game play stuff. My favourite game supplements are favourites of mine because they contain interesting stories and characters, not because of game mechanics. (What does a city export/import and what are their customs seems more important than a stat block to me)
Sexual orientation has never come up whenever I have played the D&D game itself, I don't see why it would arise (and i've mainly played for the past two years with a group of gay males, including a transman which is why I once made a thread about magical/divine sex changes in the realms that was promptly locked but we can apparently talk about it now = P) In game people seem to care more about game mechanics, killing monsters, and treasure. This discussion seems more relevant to the literary side of the Forgotten Realms, and "fluff" in game modules (Like Lliira having had her lover and priestess be murdered inspiring the formation of the Scarlet Mummers)
When in the realms have you been happy about them including things that have not generally been explored?
I personally really liked The Gilded Rune by Lisa Smedman because it was set in a new location (in regards to novels) and it explored race and identity, and as I already noted the transracialism was interesting. I also liked that it was in a region that had not really been written about before. Although I guess novels set in familiar locales with familiar characters must sell better, it is nice when they branch out into new areas. I want to know more about Chult, Durpar(etc.) and the regions of Faerun that are not usually, if ever, the setting of novels.
Also from my personal experience my favour room mate was very VERY horrified and disgusted when I described the ending of Ascendancy of the Last. I don't know how the whole Drow skin becoming lighter making them good passed whoever organizes product releases :S It sort of disturbed me too, and I didn't like that it was mentioned in the Gilded Rune. |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 19:57:36
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LOL - I think Erik just argued for 'racial profiling' being okay in the Realms. 
And I fully understand your point; I just get a kick out of how its okay to be un-PC in a fantasy/scify setting.
quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
But they describe the SAME world, so you can't have it in one and not the other. That would just be unrealistic. And there have always been real-world issues in the game and novels both. One only has to look at groups like the Eldreth Veluuthra(SP?) or the Red Wizards or Church of Cyric or Bane to see certain parallels. And there are countless other examples.
I'm pretty sure there's nothing like the Church of Cyric in the real world.
''HAHAHAHAH DO IT FOR TEH EVULZ’’ is not really a great pitch for getting people to join your church.
This is one of my (other) pet-peeves with the setting, and something I would love to see addressed in 5e.
Please tell me why so many evil gods have religions of their own? 'Evil for evil sake' just doesn't wash, even in fantasy. Their has to be some fundamental 'service' they offer folks for them to maintain followings, especially in civilized regions.
I don't need stats for deities, I need answers. Logical answers. What, precisely, does Cyric offer that other gods couldn't do better? We don't need another 'god book', we need a Cults & Religions of the realms type-book (or an on-going series of articles). What function does each cult of the Faerûn pantheon perform on a day-to-day basis? That's useful information, and something 5e/FR could desperately use. I know its hard to fathom (in FR), but there has to be at least one positive reason for each deity to exist. For example, why does Entropy exist? Because the cycle of like cannot exist without decay and death. That's the sort of thing I am talking about.
I know this went a bit off-topic, but if diversity is going to be addressed, I want to know the mindset behind 'ebil types'. Unless someone is a socio/psychopath, they will behave in a manner they feel is the best for society in general. They may be delusional, and decide wiping out a large group of folks 'is for the best', but in their mind, they would have a good reason for doing so. Even if a person's reasons are dead-wrong, they will still believe in them. I want to know what these types of people really think they are accomplishing in the Realms. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Aug 2012 20:00:06 |
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Erik Scott de Bie
Forgotten Realms Author
USA
4598 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 20:10:23
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We shouldn't go too far equating the D&D term "race" with our real world term "race." What we have in D&D are more like "species," and if I know a "species" of spider to be particularly deadly, I'll gladly treat it as such and not feel "racist" for it. 
Also, the "evil for evil's sake" thing doesn't belong in good writing/fantasy, and I don't think that's the idea anyway. None of the evil churches are "do it for the evil!"--or at least, they shouldn't be.
Cyric is the god of murder and lies. He's the guy people pray to when they're going to kill someone or try to deceive someone. His *church* is a political cult interested in wielding power in the Realms through the invocation of his name. Only the most hardened zealots (and/or those who've read the Cyrinishad) really "worship" Cyric for his own sake--everyone else in the church either fears him or pays homage to him because of the power he grants them, be it divine or political or social in nature.
So basically I'm agreeing with MT that we should see the actual motivations for evil actions and philosophies. "Evil for evil's sake" is not enough. Hunger for power, comfort, "love," riches, etc.--all these things are real motivations for real villains.
Cheers |
Erik Scott de Bie
'Tis easier to destroy than to create.
Author of a number of Realms novels (GHOSTWALKER, DEPTHS OF MADNESS, and the SHADOWBANE series), contributor to the NEVERWINTER CAMPAIGN GUIDE and SHADOWFELL: GLOOMWROUGHT AND BEYOND, Twitch DM of the Dungeon Scrawlers, currently playing "The Westgate Irregulars" |
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Markustay
Realms Explorer extraordinaire
USA
15724 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 20:57:36
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I know, I know, I just find it funny, is all. Its okay to kill Orcs on-sight, before they even do anything wrong, simply because they are Orcs. (There is a scene in The Orc king where a couple of perfectly innocent hunters are killed on their way home, while talking about how their wives are going to kill them for being late. From that point on, I realized Drizzt and the companions were murderers).
Anyhow, I have been thinking about the ideas revolving around a 'New Thay', being discussed in other threads. Whether its on Thayan soil, down in Unther, or elsewhere, I think portraying a formerly 'known evil' group as expatriates trying to 'liberate' their homeland (or just gain a homeland) as something very morally neutral. It shouldn't matter what they've done before - they need help now. And maybe, if they get help, they won't be so damn evil down the line. Thats the kind of 'epic story-telling' I think the Realms needs, you don't have to blow crap up to make huge differences.
When old enemies suddenly face a common (new) threat, oft-times they ally. 'Politics makes strange bedfellows', and all that. There is no reason why a Harper, a Zhent, and a Red Wizard couldn't work together to free a region from a demon ruling it. They may all have different reasons for wanting it, but its all part of that 'diversity' I think makes the Realms truly shine. Evil should never be so 'black & white'. Humans in a fantasy setting have far more in-common then they do differences (comparatively).
What if - in 1490 DR - a devil is ruling in the ruins of Zhentil Keep? A Harper would definitely want that out of there. A Zhent would also probably want to get that thing out of there. But what about a Red Wizard? Could it be his wife (or just lost love) was once a sleeper agent in Zhentil keep, and now he wants to know whatever became of her? People normally thought of as 'evil' are capable of great good under the right circumstances, even if they hadn't meant for that outcome to begin with.
More 'shades of gray', more diversity. Thats what we need to see in The Forgotten Realms. Give me an Amazon warrior who saves an effeminate male prince from a dragon - put the stereotypes on their head. How about a halfling that's a clutz? Or a clever Orc? Or a dwarf who isn't so ornery (okay, we've had a few of those). An elf that hates the forest? How about a gnome, period (one who isn't fascinated by every mechanical gadget he comes across)?
But don't do it just to do it - I want characters that feel real. I want to know why they are the way they are. What makes them tick. This harkens back to the early part of this conversation - creating gay characters just for the 'shock value'. Thats as bad as blowing crap up. I don't just want diversity, I want good diversity. |
"I have never in my life learned anything from any man who agreed with me" --- Dudley Field Malone
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Edited by - Markustay on 28 Aug 2012 20:59:32 |
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Mournblade
Master of Realmslore
USA
1288 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 21:34:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
I know, I know, I just find it funny, is all. Its okay to kill Orcs on-sight, before they even do anything wrong, simply because they are Orcs. (There is a scene in The Orc king where a couple of perfectly innocent hunters are killed on their way home, while talking about how their wives are going to kill them for being late. From that point on, I realized Drizzt and the companions were murderers).
I have the philosophy that creationism is the genesis mechanism in FR, and that evolution only takes place in response to the environment. I have always played the ORcs, goblinoids, gnolls and others as irredemably evil. They were made to be evil. They may occasionally do a good act, but they are ultimately evil.
The best and nicest orc you get is General Vraak who's morality MAY swing to good, but he is an extreme outlier. Orcs are the perfect villain because they were created by evil. No paladin in the forgotten Realms would lose his paladinhood for killing an orc child.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
Anyhow, I have been thinking about the ideas revolving around a 'New Thay', being discussed in other threads. Whether its on Thayan soil, down in Unther, or elsewhere, I think portraying a formerly 'known evil' group as expatriates trying to 'liberate' their homeland (or just gain a homeland) as something very morally neutral. It shouldn't matter what they've done before - they need help now. And maybe, if they get help, they won't be so damn evil down the line. Thats the kind of 'epic story-telling' I think the Realms needs, you don't have to blow crap up to make huge differences.
I have no problem with good and evil co-operating. They make good stories. I have trouble with the stories of "See orcs aren't so bad." My least favorite Salvatore story ever was the Drizzt and the goblin. Goblins are evil, you only promote civilization by killing the goblin. I think in D&D there needs to be the definite villain.
I have no problem with a Paladin assuming the goblin is evil. I have a problem with the Paladin assuming the Zhent guard is automatically evil. Dark Elves MIGHT be good, but there is a VERY very very very very slim chance of that, and if you wait to find out you might very well be dead. BUT if the Dark Elf was good... this time you should have verified, unless he was not acting to good.
When viewed through the lens of Natural Selection NOTHING is evil. Due to the D&D Alignment system, Natural Selection is not the primary means of Evolution. (*I think creationsim is a completely fictional concept and I only use it for Fantasy games, don't worry Bill Nye!)
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
When old enemies suddenly face a common (new) threat, oft-times they ally. 'Politics makes strange bedfellows', and all that. There is no reason why a Harper, a Zhent, and a Red Wizard couldn't work together to free a region from a demon ruling it. They may all have different reasons for wanting it, but its all part of that 'diversity' I think makes the Realms truly shine. Evil should never be so 'black & white'. Humans in a fantasy setting have far more in-common then they do differences (comparatively).
I agree evil should not be black and white, but I never want the evil created monsters to actually be good. I am OK having a Zulkir be Good. I am OK even with good 'fallen races' like Drow and Duergar. But A paladin is going to be sure that killing an ORC is not going to cost him his morality unless he was observing something very questionable for an orc, like covering an orc child from an attack. That in my mind is a rarity for an orc. I would probably never include it unless I wanted to wreck the paradigm of my game
Moral relativity is great for a certain style of play. WHen I am running a D&D game I am not looking to explore the tropes of the misunderstood enemy, mostly. THere are times it comes in, but I like to have my "races" be Species, and my evil races evil by design and not by choice.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
What if - in 1490 DR - a devil is ruling in the ruins of Zhentil Keep? A Harper would definitely want that out of there. A Zhent would also probably want to get that thing out of there. But what about a Red Wizard? Could it be his wife (or just lost love) was once a sleeper agent in Zhentil keep, and now he wants to know whatever became of her? People normally thought of as 'evil' are capable of great good under the right circumstances, even if they hadn't meant for that outcome to begin with.
Is that RED Wizard doing it for good though, or just for love? Is the love something he wants to possess, or wants to save because HE could not bare to live without HER, and not because he is worried about the suffering she will go through? A good character would treat love different than an Evil character. So under the right circumstances an evil character may perform a GOOD ACT, but he will not be doing it for GOOD REASONS, which would not be a violation of his alignment.
If a man is carrying my McGuffin, and he falls, and I catch him, I saved the McGuffin and his save was besides the point. Maybe I even sacrifice myself for the McGuffin because it is needed to aid the organization I am with. If that character lets him fall with it, the death will be much slower.
quote:
Originally posted by Markustay
More 'shades of gray', more diversity. Thats what we need to see in The Forgotten Realms. Give me an Amazon warrior who saves an effeminate male prince from a dragon - put the stereotypes on their head. How about a halfling that's a clutz? Or a clever Orc? Or a dwarf who isn't so ornery (okay, we've had a few of those). An elf that hates the forest? How about a gnome, period (one who isn't fascinated by every mechanical gadget he comes across)?
But don't do it just to do it - I want characters that feel real. I want to know why they are the way they are. What makes them tick. This harkens back to the early part of this conversation - creating gay characters just for the 'shock value'. Thats as bad as blowing crap up. I don't just want diversity, I want good diversity.
Having races fall out of their stereotype already happens. We already have smart orcs, etc. I agree with that. |
A wizard is Never late Frodo Baggins. Nor is he Early. A wizard arrives precisely when he means to... |
Edited by - Mournblade on 28 Aug 2012 21:38:00 |
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Alystra Illianniis
Great Reader
USA
3750 Posts |
Posted - 28 Aug 2012 : 22:05:05
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quote:
Originally posted by combatmedic
quote:
Originally posted by Alystra Illianniis
But they describe the SAME world, so you can't have it in one and not the other. That would just be unrealistic. And there have always been real-world issues in the game and novels both. One only has to look at groups like the Eldreth Veluuthra(SP?) or the Red Wizards or Church of Cyric or Bane to see certain parallels. And there are countless other examples.
I'm pretty sure there's nothing like the Church of Cyric in the real world.
''HAHAHAHAH DO IT FOR TEH EVULZ’’ is not really a great pitch for getting people to join your church.
Let me explain futher about the differences I see between the needs and natures of the game line and the novel line:
1) The novels are stories written by authors.
2) The sourcebooks and modules are play aids for DMs and players.
3) Game design and writing fiction are not equivalent activities, in part because gameplay and reading fiction are such different things. What makes for a good game is not necessarily what makes for good literature.
4) An unpopular novel loses less money than an unpopular sourcebook. Sourcebooks and other game materials are expensive.
Why should Hasbro risk alienating a sizeable numbers of their customers by giving them a lot of material they don’t want or need? Why should Hasbro risk raising the ire of either social conservative groups or progressive groups who object to some aspect of the game? Of course the game can’t and shouldn’t be sterilized of any offensive or controversial content to suit critics, but it seems like bad business to wade into the ‘culture wars.’ Instead, Hasbro should concentrate on making a fun game that has broad appeal.
I think you seriously misconstrued my meaning there. It had nothing to do with "equivilant" religions, but with the resulting fanatacism of certain faiths in Faerun, particularly the "evil" ones. This very much akin to certain fringe groups in the RW, just as the E.V. has it's own real-world analog. (and I don't think we need to mention its name, all those elves are missing is the white sheets....) Even nationalism gets taken to extremes in the FR, just as we see in RL. This was the point of my earlier post. It's there, whether we use it in games or not. The game books occasionally mention some of these groups, just as the novels sometimes bring them into focus. Entire areas may even be dominated by some of these groups or mind-sets, both in game and in the novels. Ignoring it doesn't make it go away, unless you run/play your games where it doesn't exist. But that would make for both a boring novel OR game, IMHO. |
The Goddess is alive, and magic is afoot.
"Where Science ends, Magic begins" -Spiral, Uncanny X-Men #491
"You idiots! You've captured their STUNT doubles!" -Spaceballs
Lothir's character background/stats: http://forum.candlekeep.com/pop_profile.asp?mode=display&id=5469
My stories:
http://z3.invisionfree.com/Mickeys_Comic_Tavern/index.php?showforum=188
Lothir, courtesy of Sylinde (Deviant Art)/Luaxena (Chosen of Eilistraee)
http://sylinde.deviantart.com/#/d2z6e4u |
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Diversity in the realms
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