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Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
 Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 13:29:23
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My players have expressed an interest in participating in a war...
And, in my wishing to keep my players happy, I told them I'd see what I could do. Now, I only have access to the three 3.0 core books, and a handful of pdf's that are absolutely NO help whatsoever.
So, can any of the great Sages of Candlekeep help me?
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Trafaldi
Learned Scribe
264 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 13:47:24
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| Hmmm...Well I am pretty sure that there is a mention in one of the new books on how you can roll for armies, but you may not have to do that youcoould probably treat them like part of a mercenary regiment that sees all of the hells of war through missions of strategic importance such as taking out supply caravans and officers travel lacking great protection. If you wanted to do some battles on a larger scale you could consider finding a war game and playing the battles through that. There are many ways you can go. |
Some believe there is something more after death, if you really want to find out... go kill yourself and stop pestering me. |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 20:04:08
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The book that provides information for running large scale battles is the Miniatures Handbook. Not having access to my copy at the moment, I'm not sure if this is true, but a quick read through that chapter earlier suggested that it was quite reliant upon the use of miniatures.
On the topic of mercenaries/elite forces, allowing the players to complete important missions involving smaller numbers of enemies is generally the preferred method. Any number of those old mechanized unit games(ie Mechwarrior etc.) may provide ideas on how to do this, as they generally followed this method, allowing for the players to greatly effect the course of the war by completing strike force missions.
Deus Ex: Invisible War is perhaps the most recent example of this that I can think of.
And Alaundo, I'm sorry about the non-Realmsian content, but they do provide good models... |
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Knightcrawler
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 21 Jan 2004 : 20:59:48
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The problem with the minatures mass combat system is that it is designed for use with minatures. Doesn't covert over really well from what I remember. I think Complete Warrior might have something on it.
A couple of question sarise though. Are you having them each command a unit? Are they mercenaries? Are they going to be oart of a cities/countries standing army? You can always make it that they are the elite insertion squad. They go in and take out key people and emplacements before a battle. Or if the party is especially stealthy then have then spying and gathering information. |
Knightcrawler
I Am Become Death, Destroyer Of Worlds |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2004 : 01:11:51
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Having just checked my copy, I can confirm that the system in question is practically unusable without miniatures.
The system is also derived from the D&D miniatures rules, not the core D&D rules.
It is possible to play using other miniatures other than WotC's releases, but it would likely require quite a bit of work.
No surprise though, considering WotC is likely taking every chance they get to promote their own products.
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2004 : 07:36:54
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| Well, Trafaldi already said what I was going to say. You might want to take a look here as well, though. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2004 : 08:20:39
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quote:
Originally posted by Arivia
On the topic of mercenaries/elite forces, allowing the players to complete important missions involving smaller numbers of enemies is generally the preferred method. Any number of those old mechanized unit games(ie Mechwarrior etc.) may provide ideas on how to do this, as they generally followed this method, allowing for the players to greatly effect the course of the war by completing strike force missions.
I think perhaps you actually mean BattleTech. The MechWarrior game is an advanced role-playing platform of rules for your BT characters. BT deals with the actual mechanised side of warfare.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Arivia
Great Reader
Canada
2965 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2004 : 14:37:57
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I guess so.
I was trying to name a globally-recognized game in that genre, as I don't think references to EarthSiege and Heavy Gear would carry far... |
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RogueAssassin
Learned Scribe
USA
207 Posts |
Posted - 22 Jan 2004 : 17:09:40
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i like mass combat though it can be tedious at times. Its very fun for the Pcs and if ur willing to work and put forth some effort it can be done.
-Rogue |
"Spirit. Its a Heros strength, a mothers resiliance, and the poor mans armor. It cannot be broken and it cannot be taken away. This i must belive"---Drizzt Do'Urden |
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Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 01:09:28
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Well, I called up one of my old friends for this, and he helped me run through some scenarios, and I believe that I'm going to try and just make the team a smallish strike team. Lots less trouble 
I could probably handle the mass combat thing, but it just seems like it would be less trouble to have them as an 'elite' unit. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 07:04:16
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| In that case, make certain you stress their 'elite unit' characteristic. Don't push them on a you're-better-than-everyone-else path, but focus on their being apart from the rest. Like a Delta or SEAL team -- give them a group symbol, if they don't have one. Make it something like a bird of prey, perhaps -- the Hawks, the Falcons, something that strikes quickly and moves fast. Then maybe an NPC ilusionist could enchant their armor to have that symbol, so that the enemy would learn to fear its sight. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 07:16:57
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quote:
Originally posted by Icewolf
Well, I called up one of my old friends for this, and he helped me run through some scenarios, and I believe that I'm going to try and just make the team a smallish strike team. Lots less trouble
I could probably handle the mass combat thing, but it just seems like it would be less trouble to have them as an 'elite' unit.
If it's a smallish strike team, then you'll probably want to make sure that they have skills which cover stealth and infiltration techniques, as well as a high mobility. Afterall, a small unit may have advantages in being able to get into, and out of sensitive areas more easily, but that same size can also work against them, especially if they are a weighed down unit with several weapons and clanking armor.
These techniques will ensure that your party will live to see the end of the war...Hopefully...
As for unit names, the Bookwyrm has the right idea, although I would suggest adding a little some mystic atmosphere to them...maybe something like, the Shadow Hawks, or even the Ghost Falcons. The Smoke Ravens also sounds good, and fits the image of a small combat unit.
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Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
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Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 07:37:01
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I was already intending to let them choose a name, and special tasks, but while I'm planning out their tour of duty, they get to squabble over a name. I've learned my lesson on trying to suggest a name for their adventuring party. *shudder*
I might go ahead and make their armor magically silenced (their armor, NOT them, their footsteps, Dwarvish cursing of the elves, etc...), but I haven't decided on that yet, but if I do, it'll cost them. Probably a drop in the protection the armor gives. Any ideas? |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 07:58:23
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Enchantments, and protections for armor...?
Well, that really all depends upon the type of enemy you will be facing. Afterall, if your team is about to take on an active force of Sarkrith, having armor or shields with a Ghost Touch, or Ethereal ability, won't do your party much good. Try to fit the enchantment, to the enemy abilities.
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 08:12:53
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Fit the enchantment to the ability, huh? So I guess that means I shouldn't give them +6 plate armor of Free Action with 0% spell failure, and then put them up against Magic Immune ghosts, huh?
Actually, for the enchanted armor, I would only give them the silence effect, other than that, they 'buy' their equipment from the supply chief. For instance: Trogdor the Fighter (A character's actual name, by the way) has a set of +3 full plate mail. He can trade it in for the mission for +1 Silent full plate mail. Is this clarifying my point, or am I just repeating myself? |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 08:14:47
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Okay, first, I've forgotten to add this twice, so let me say it now:
It's "Let slip the dogs of war"!!!!  Honestly, doesn't anyone read Shakespeare these days?
Now, you don't actually need a stealth team for this. I was kind of hoping I wouldn't need to cite my brother's story again, but let me point out the elite groups I mentioned in the other scroll.
In all of both books (up to the point where he stopped writing, anyway) there were few parts where the elites needed to infiltrate anything. Now, part of that is that the enemy were darkmen, not humans. There were some human infiltrations: once due to the king they were trying to get support from -- he'd heard of their commander's exploits, and asked him to test his personal defenses -- and the other was with some enemy humans, where they actually just used trickery to get in, and then started fighting.
The real hide-anywhere specialist was called the Shadow -- I'd make him at least a 25th level rogue with Epic Skill Focus (Hide) and (Move Silently). The elite groups, though, were behind-enemy-lines opperators (especially the Ravens) and shock troops (especially the Hawks). Their jobs were things like aiding front-line troops with fort construction and garrisoning, or long-range patrols. When it came to getting in and out without a fight, they'd send someone like Shadow. The main character, you understand, was an Elemental Friend -- it was his magical specialty, and gave him the equivilent of a thirty-some caster level when it came to summoning them. He had a nice level of smash-it-up power.  Imagine an Iron Lord with a few normal Irons in support, with Earth elementals to move them through the ground at about speed 60. Scary. For the darkmen.
Some time I'll have to talk him into rewriting it. It's a good story, if you fix all the cliches.  If only he'd let me actually help him.
Anyway, the point is, your elite team isn't likely to have to focus on stealth. You ought to tell them that they shouldn't invest in heavy armor -- they need the speed, after all, and it'll lower the check penalties. But they should be focusing on disrupting troop movements, filling holes in the lines, scouting, fortification construction, and other such missions. They don't need to be the Silent Death -- all that they need to be is Fast Death. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 08:32:17
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Bookwyrm wrote:
Okay, first, I've forgotten to add this twice, so let me say it now:
It's "Let slip the dogs of war"!!!! Honestly, doesn't anyone read Shakespeare these days?
Actually, it is "Cry "Havoc!" and let slip the dogs of war," but I wasn't trying to quote shakespear. I had to play Antony in my high school production of that accursed play... (Well, in all fairness I like shakespear, I just hold a grudge against that particular play because my Drama teacher FORCED me to audition for the play, or fail her class. I auditioned, and did my worst, unfortunately my drama teacher ran that particular department...
__________________________________________
Now, back on topic: My players need to keep their actions kind of low key, because one of them can barely follow the simplest of encounters. (I am desperate for players in my area) I have talked to the other players privately, and we have agreed that we should keep the slower player in, and hope he learns the game enough so as to not hinder us too much.
Edit: Gah! hit the wrong button!!
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Edited by - Icewolf on 23 Jan 2004 08:40:12 |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 08:56:13
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quote:
Originally posted by Icewolf
Actually, it is "Cry "Havoc!"
Yes, I know. It wasn't really necessary, though, not for this one.
I was just assuming that you got confused, sort of like how a lot of people think the line is "lead on, MacDuff" when it's actually "lay on." |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31701 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 12:54:19
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quote:
Originally posted by Bookwyrm
...It's "Let slip the dogs of war"!!!! Honestly, doesn't anyone read Shakespeare these days?
Actually, that is not entirely correct. Of the six main 'Shakespeare Folios' that have been studied by scholars, only two make reference to the particular phrasing you just mentioned for that line in the play. Three of the remaining four have been seen to read loose, while the fourth is not considered due to the many other errors in the translation of the texts.
I'll crack open my old 'Shakespeare' books to find out what the fourth Folio actually said, but I'm pretty sure the debate on it's actual phrasing has yet to be settled (and probably will never be  ).
Oh well, and now back to the topic at hand...
Didn't the Netbook of War deal with small combat units that players could use as a model for their own games...?. I'm not entirely sure, because I remember that the book was never finished by the community that was putting it together. But I do recall some paragraphs on putting together a small combat unit for use in grand-army Greyhawk-style combat scenarios.
I'll have to check...
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Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
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Knightcrawler
Acolyte
22 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 15:22:03
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Cry "Havoc," and let slip the dogs of war.
William Shakespeare (1564 - 1616), "Julius Caesar", Act 3 scene 1 |
Knightcrawler
I Am Become Death, Destroyer Of Worlds |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 23 Jan 2004 : 17:08:46
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Icewolf, count yourself lucky. My players want to be in a war as well. Only catch is they want to be the generals. Their ambition is no less than to liberate unther then push into mulhorand to secure themselves high ranking positions in the new empire.
Now this is a headache.
As a sidebar anyone happen to have a link to that site that has all the classics for free download? I have an urge to read Henry for some reason. |
Shadows of War: Tales of a Mercenary
My first stab at realms fiction, here at candlekeep. Stop on by and tell me what you think. |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2004 : 06:59:59
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::Bookwyrm attempts to hand Capt. Charlie a scroll surreptitiously, so as not to attract Alaundo's attention, but trips over the other scribe's long, trailing signature list.::
Oops. I hope Alaundo didn't hear that . . . . 
Charlie, you ought to tell your players that it's impossible for them all to be generals. For that to happen, the group would be running on individual stories, rather than as a team. It would defeat the entire purpose of a tabletop game. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2004 : 08:29:19
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| Well technically just one is general, but the others each control a legion as well. Basically their specialized legion acts on their action, much like a normal combat. It runs much like the battle of five armies. Thanks by the way for that scroll. |
Edited by - Capn Charlie on 24 Jan 2004 08:29:53 |
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Roewyn
Learned Scribe
114 Posts |
Posted - 24 Jan 2004 : 22:49:50
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Leading armies to wars is not a simple thing for both Dm and players.
If my players wanted a war I would give them a cause to fight which may lead to a riot, a coupe for example.
Getting ready for a battle especially building an army from nothing is not an easy job.Many conspiracies or diplomatic problems or war budget for instance. One will think what to do and the others die to make his wish to come true.
And also sieges may last for years and long battles may be too boring.
I think in realms a battle is to win or to lose the whole. I mean two armies clash and one survives to conquer. The rest is getting rid of resistance and building order. And players can participate that crucial battle as a commander with a very important role.Thinking about a brilliant strategy may be fun but battles are won on the field. There are many things that a commander besides important elite forces missions.Man must think very quickly to do what he is wanted to do. And that lets the DM control the battle also
So I think being a leutinent or a captain is more fun than being a general or king. But these are what I think, no suggestions indeed |
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Crust
Learned Scribe
USA
273 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 04:33:48
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Greetings, all. This is my first post here. I've come from the FR boards, having been quite miffed at their removal of the novels forum.
Icewolf,
I'm currently running a war in my FR campaign. It's the alliance of the Dales, Cormyr, and the elves of Cormanthor vs. the invading forces of the githyanki and a trio of epic phaerimm who have allied themselves with Vlaakith, the githyanki lich queen.
My PCs are all in the upper teens, and they function as a special forces unit. They have already rescued a captured Randal Morn from the clutches of a very old red dragon and her brood, helped retake Dagger Falls from githyanki occupation, slew a number of allied red dragons in the region, and found and destroyed the slaad lord Bazim Gorag before the githyanki could free him. They've already been involved in four major conflicts, twice defending the walls of the Twisted Tower from a force of orcs, orges, giants, a fleet of manticores, various goblinoids, a pair of adult red dragons, various undead, githyanki warlocks and knights (and their planar ships), and at least one epic-level phaerimm sorcerer... a third battle defending a recaptured Dagger Falls from an advancing force of orcs, githyanki, various humanoids, one mature adult red dragon, stone and iron golems, and manticores, all reinforced by several planar ships... and a fourth time before the gates of the Tethyamar Mines in their attempt to find Randal Morn and free him. After having recently rescued Randal Morn and slew one of the most powerful red dragons in the region, the next mission of the alliance is the siege of Castle Daggerdale (which is currently occupied by the largest force of githyanki in the Dales, along with orcs, ogres, trolls, other demihumans, fire giants, etc.). That will be the equivilant of the siege of Minas Tirith, only the other way around. Eventually the PCs will have to race to the south-eastern region of the Dales to locate the Tomb of Acererak before the servants of Vlaakith unlock the secrets of demi-lichdom, Vlaakith's fall-back plan to attaining godhood.
I find that for PCs to successfully act in a wartime campaign, they must either be of higher level and do the heroic deeds, or be of lower level and accept the menial jobs. Certainly in the chaos of a real large-scale battle, it is hard to imagine low level PCs surviving. For example, the barbarian/fighter of the group has had enlarge person permanently cast on him, wears +4 adamantine full plate, and wields a +3 vampiric huge great axe. He wades into combat, and orcs and githyanki break against him like water on rock. Arrows bounce off him like rain (DR 6/- with his armor), and he slaughters foot soldiers by the dozen with his weapons and feats. He is feared and well-known. He has thwarted two assassination attempts (with the help of his fellow comrades). The chaos of large scale battle can often be told through a few die rolls and good storytelling.
Another thing to think about is spellcasters. If the opposing forces have spellcasters amongst them, then the party spellcasters will have to be ready to tangle with them. Chances are the wizards will battle in the sky before the ground forces march. Why? Because spellcasters can ruin large numbers of troops with spells ranging from stinking cloud to horrid wilting and even meteor swarm. Party spellcasters will have to engage and either ready counterspells immediately or prepare outright spell duels. If not, the enemy spellcasters will cut the opposing troops in half before melee combat is realized.
Also, rogues and arcane tricksters could bypass combat entirely and attack from behind or disable drawbridge defenses and battlements, horsemen could lead cavalry charges, clerics could be ground force medics and/or destroy undead troops, and bards could inspire the conflict and bolster troops. Druids could bring dire animals to the combat and alter the terrain in a number of ways with their magic.
When dealing with war, it's difficult to think of things in regards to something like WWII. FR wars don't deal with millions of troops over thousands of miles (at least not that I've seen). FR wars deal in the thousands, and I don't see them lasting for years and years. Especially when considering the killing power of spellcasters, dragons, giants, undead, and other monsters and classes, battles can take a turn very quickly. One enemy wizard casting teleport and meteor swarm, incendiary cloud, or horrid wilting could end a conflict in less than a minute... unless there is a PC there to stop that.
Wars are hard to run at times, but if the PCs are involved in both special ops missions AND front line, bloody chaos, I think your players will really feel like the Aragorns, Gimlis, William Wallaces, and Conans of any war you present to them. |
"That's right, hurl back views that force ye to think by name-calling - 'tis the grand old tradition, let it not down! Anything to keep from having to think, or - Mystra forfend - change thy own views!"
Narnra glowered at her father. "Just how am I to learn how to think? By being taught by you?"
"Some folk in the Realms would give their lives for the chance to learn at my feet," Elminster said mildly. "Several already have."
~from Elminster's Daughter, Ed Greenwood |
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Bookwyrm
Great Reader
USA
4740 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 07:16:51
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Nicely put. Just one thing to add -- wars could last years, just not year-round. Unlike in modern warfare, you simply couldn't do any large scale operations in winter. But it was certainly possible to keep things dragging out with no conclusion, and even no real order of battle -- just smash, smash, rest, rest, hmm, it's been a few months/years, let's smash again.
Just take a look at the mutual histories of England and France. |
Hell hath no fury like all of Candlekeep rising in defense of one of its own.
Download the brickfilm masterpiece by Leftfield Studios! See this page for more. |
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Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 28 Jan 2004 : 07:31:14
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| I have talked to my players, and they have deided that they want the strike team thing. So what I need to do is to through enough stuff at them to level them up a bit, and then they will be the vanguard to most large assaults. The Cleric for the group has already let me know that when she gets to a high enough level, she wants to start penning Raise Dead scrolls. I can tell she expects the fighter to do something stupid |
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Cult_Leader
Learned Scribe
USA
337 Posts |
Posted - 03 Feb 2004 : 14:42:03
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As I have said before. There are two very good books based on war in D&D and other D20 games (more on D&D of course) from AEG. The book of war and the book of mercenaries.
Look them both up its VERY easy to have armies and wars when you have those books. |
"Madness you say! Do you fear me? Are you afraid of what I might do, of what I might say? What a fascinating reaction. Don't you find it somewhat encumbering?"
Piddles assumes a deep and resonant voice. "Space...the Final Frontier. These are the voyages of the starship...Garou. It's mission: to slay Wyrm creatures where they live and breed. To accumulate more Garou than the world's entire population. To produce metis like no one has before." - Piddles
"Aren't you people supposed to be doing something? Like, entertaining me, the fascist wizard?" - InleRah
I have the passwords to the minds of everyone and the cheat codes to the universe - Me |
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Capn Charlie
Senior Scribe
USA
418 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2004 : 05:42:24
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quote:
Originally posted by Cult_Leader
As I have said before. There are two very good books based on war in D&D and other D20 games (more on D&D of course) from AEG. The book of war and the book of mercenaries.
Look them both up its VERY easy to have armies and wars when you have those books.
Except for the weapon add ons in the merc book. Have you read those things? For 2,000 gp you can non magically enhance a weapon to increase both the threat range, and crit modifier. And increase the the base damage by two. Serrated Laminated greatsword my... |
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Icewolf
Learned Scribe
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 12 Feb 2004 : 05:48:31
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quote:
Originally posted by Capn Charlie
Except for the weapon add ons in the merc book. Have you read those things? For 2,000 gp you can non magically enhance a weapon to increase both the threat range, and crit modifier. And increase the the base damage by two. Serrated Laminated greatsword my...
The Ginsu Greatsword! It slices AND dices all those tough-to-cut orcs and goblin types! |
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Let loose the Dogs of War! HELP!!!
