| Author |
 Topic  |
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
 Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 20:27:28
|
One of the more interesting moments of my time at UCon came when, in a casual conversation, it was mentioned by what I consider an extremely reliable source that WotC was working on a 4th Edition, and that it had been stalled for over a year as they debated something that remained NDA.
Considering I'd never heard about the possibility of 4th Edition, I was very surprised. Worse, I seemed to be the only one at the table who didn't know at least something about it. So I've come here, to ask people who may have their ears closer to the rumor mill if they could clue me in. At this point, any information would be more than I have.
|
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 20:32:57
|
| Rumours of 4E have been around only slightly less long than 3E has been around. I've still not heard anything concrete on it. |
 |
|
|
Beirnadri Magranth
Senior Scribe
USA
720 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 20:33:43
|
omg this is the worst news iver heard since.... since i was working at the bar on saturday and I realized that a person i served was too drunk to drive off of two drinks
!!!!! |
"You came here to be a martyr in a great big bang of glory... instead you will die with a whimper."
::moussaoui tries to interrupt::
"You will never get a chance to speak again and that's an appropriate ending."
-Judge Brinkema |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 20:33:50
|
| We know that 4th edition was planned since the development of 3rd and that 3.5 was specifically created as a line-rejuvenating stopgap with 4th in mind. As far as I can tell, most people in the industry expect it to come in the next few years. Wizards doesn't talk about it directly (which is normal, as that might threaten current sales). There have been various rumours and counter-rumours that I'm not up on and I suspect aren't worth taking too seriously without first-hand confirmation. |
Edited by - Faraer on 27 Nov 2006 20:34:24 |
|
|
|
Kuje
Great Reader
USA
7915 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 20:36:02
|
| Faraer said it better then I could. :) |
For some of us, books are as important as almost anything else on earth. What a miracle it is that out of these small, flat, rigid squares of paper unfolds world after world, worlds that sing to you, comfort and quiet and excite you... Books are full of the things that you don't get in real life - wonderful, lyrical language, for instance, right off the bat. - Anne Lamott, Bird by Bird
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium |
|
|
|
RodOdom
Senior Scribe
USA
509 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 20:47:54
|
| I wouldn't be upset if and when 4th edition rolls around. But what is there to fix in 3.5? I myself wouldn't bother with the 4th and stick with 3.5. |
|
|
|
Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 20:50:34
|
I doubt it is about something to fix and more about making $$$$
the 3rd Edition rules hasn't been even 10 years/1 decade yet... |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
|
|
|
Reefy
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
892 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 22:44:08
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
I doubt it is about something to fix and more about making $$$$
the 3rd Edition rules hasn't been even 10 years/1 decade yet...
That's my thinking too. |
Life is either daring adventure or nothing. |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 23:14:35
|
All new editions are to make money; there isn't a RPG line that's successful in the long term without edition renewals. Eight years isn't a particularly short interval, and these are luxury, not compulsory purchases, after all.
Even if 3.5 was perfect on its own terms, it isn't perfectly liked by all, and it isn't the game the current designers would make given free rein since its concepts are those of a team now gone from the company. For my sake, and that of attracting new players, I hope 4th is a much simpler system, for one thing. |
Edited by - Faraer on 27 Nov 2006 23:15:15 |
|
|
|
Rinonalyrna Fathomlin
Great Reader
USA
7106 Posts |
Posted - 27 Nov 2006 : 23:32:53
|
Agreed. Let's face it, all these new books are how WotC makes money...of course there will eventually a new edition.
I would hope that 4th Edition wouldn't be about creating a new base class or prestige class for every single character concept anyone's ever thought of, but that's just me. |
"Instead of asking why we sleep, it might make sense to ask why we wake. Perchance we live to dream. From that perspective, the sea of troubles we navigate in the workaday world might be the price we pay for admission to another night in the world of dreams."
--Richard Greene (letter to Time) |
Edited by - Rinonalyrna Fathomlin on 27 Nov 2006 23:34:10 |
|
|
|
The Sage
Procrastinator Most High
Australia
31799 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 00:33:41
|
quote:
Originally posted by Faraer
There have been various rumours and counter-rumours that I'm not up on and I suspect aren't worth taking too seriously without first-hand confirmation.
Indeed.
For a sampling, I would suggest interested scribes visit the various "speculation" threads over at EN World.
|
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
Scribe for the Candlekeep Compendium -- Volume IX now available (Oct 2007)
"So Saith Ed" -- the collected Candlekeep replies of Ed Greenwood
Zhoth'ilam Folio -- The Electronic Misadventures of a Rambling Sage |
|
|
|
dwarvenranger
Senior Scribe
USA
428 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 01:41:25
|
I guess as long as I have as much fun playing in it I have in as 3.5, 3rd, 2nd, and 1st edition, I suppose I can't begrudge WOTC too much for a new edition. Business is about making money after all. But it better not happen for at least 5 more years. |
If I waited till I knew what I was doing, I'd never get anything done.
|
Edited by - dwarvenranger on 28 Nov 2006 01:42:11 |
|
|
|
scererar
Master of Realmslore
USA
1618 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 02:11:39
|
I heard that they were going to skip 4E and go straight into 5th edition....... . just kidding though. I have learned through the years that rumor mill is just that, rumor. however, it has juuusst enough truth to it, to make threads such as this and many others. |
|
|
|
Purple Dragon Knight
Master of Realmslore
Canada
1796 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 03:13:10
|
 |
|
|
|
Thauramarth
Senior Scribe
United Kingdom
732 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 07:53:16
|
I don't know exactly when 4th Edition is going to come along, but come along it will. In fact, judging from the history of some other RPG systems, D&D is already behind schedule as far as new editions are concerned - the Original D&D came out in 1974, and by the time it was wrapped up (in 1998 or so?), it was in its 4th Edition. Chaosium's old Call of Cathulhu game went through 4 editions in even less time, if memory serves me right.
So, I guess, 4th Edition is coming - it is inevitable. The only questions are when and how... 2009 would have a nice symmetry to it, 2nd edition came out in 1989, 3rd Edition came out in 1999. As to how...
So, how radical is the transition going to be? The transition from 1st to 2nd Edition had not been all that radical. In fact, I had just started playing in 1988, using the 1st Edition rules. Of course, I had been wary when 2nd Edition came out, but for a long time, I was able to use 1st edition rules without a problem. I more or less switched over gradually. But I really did not need to - you could easily have used 1st edition rules all the way up to 1999, when 3rd edition came along.
When 3rd Edition came out, it was (as many scribes here have already stated) a major overhaul, the rules had changed quite a bit: multiclassing, experience, skill system, introduction of feats, introduction of new base classes (by comparison, 2nd edition only ever introduced one new base class, the psionicist), the notion of prestige classes, an overhaul of the psionics system, and, from a marketing point of view, the creation of the OGL, and the possibility for third-party publishers to use it to get their own supplements on the market.
Also, at the time, the RPG business was a bit in uproar - TSR had gone belly up, and had been taken over by WotC, which in turn had been taken over by Hasbro. If I remember well, one of the objectives of 3rd edition was to make the game more appealing to the "video game generation", with more options, and faster advancement (I think). Not unlogical - in 1989, the most "advanced" video game platform had been something akin to the Commodore 64, which was not radically different from the Appel II, which at the time was already 10 years old. The PC and especially the internet transformed gaming, and I guess D&D had to change to compete for attention. A change of paradigm, to use an already overused term 
Right now, I don't see anything similar, neither on the business side, nor paradigm-wise. So 4th Edition may not be as radical a change as 3rd Edition or 3.5, and may mean that many supplements from 3 or 3.5 may remain useable. Or, then again, I could be entirely wrong (of course). |
|
|
|
Zanan
Senior Scribe
Germany
942 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 09:18:20
|
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
I wouldn't be upset if and when 4th edition rolls around. But what is there to fix in 3.5? I myself wouldn't bother with the 4th and stick with 3.5.
Maybe the alignment system get's the chop once and for all!?! |
Cave quid dicis, quando et cui!
Gæð a wyrd swa hio scel!
In memory of Alura Durshavin.
Visit my "Homepage" to find A Guide to the Drow NPCs of Faerûn, Drow and non-Drow PrC and much more. |
|
|
|
Ergdusch
Master of Realmslore
Germany
1720 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 10:04:07
|
Bah, we don't need no new edition. Most of us havn't even had the time to fully understand all rules of the 3.5 version jet, meself included! 
Ergdusch |
"Das Gras weht im Wind, wenn der Wind weht." |
|
|
|
Kaladorm
Master of Realmslore
United Kingdom
1176 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 10:22:38
|
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Bah, we don't need no new edition. Most of us havn't even had the time to fully understand all rules of the 3.5 version jet, meself included!
Ergdusch
I don't remember the changeover myself (we played a bit of 2E, stopped for a number of years, then started playing 3E), but am I right in assuming similar sentiments were around at the time of the 2E/3E changeover?
That said I am a big fan of 3E (yes and 3.5 included) rules. Mainly because, from a DM perspective, there will always be something players want to do that isn't governed in the rulebook. 3E has made it incredibly easy to adapt 'checks and rolls' in suitable conditions. Everything is streamlined, DCs and modifiers give ideas as to how hard something could be, and they are consistent with every check. A DC30 check represents a heroic effort no matter what skill you use, be it balance or spellcraft. Similarly stat modifiers, and ability checks are all easy to incorporate. |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36890 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 11:10:39
|
quote:
Originally posted by Zanan
quote:
Originally posted by RodOdom
I wouldn't be upset if and when 4th edition rolls around. But what is there to fix in 3.5? I myself wouldn't bother with the 4th and stick with 3.5.
Maybe the alignment system get's the chop once and for all!?!
Why? The only problem with the alignment system is that a lot of people simply don't read it correctly. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen!  |
|
|
|
Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 11:13:01
|
| i just hope they revamp the alignment system to something like KJER's ... with modifications and guidelines about what diffent stuff does ... then it would be more logical that two good realms ended up in a war ... they are good on diffent basis |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
|
|
|
Bluenose
Learned Scribe
United Kingdom
134 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 11:19:02
|
quote:
Originally posted by Kaladorm
quote:
Originally posted by Ergdusch
Bah, we don't need no new edition. Most of us havn't even had the time to fully understand all rules of the 3.5 version jet, meself included!
Ergdusch
I don't remember the changeover myself (we played a bit of 2E, stopped for a number of years, then started playing 3E), but am I right in assuming similar sentiments were around at the time of the 2E/3E changeover?
Yes, and the 1E/2E changeover.  I could give you examples from other RPGs as well, some of them much more vociferous than anything I've seen directed at Wizards. It's not a new experience for me, and I know perfectly well that no matter what I say now in the end I will buy the new rules. 
quote:
That said I am a big fan of 3E (yes and 3.5 included) rules. Mainly because, from a DM perspective, there will always be something players want to do that isn't governed in the rulebook. 3E has made it incredibly easy to adapt 'checks and rolls' in suitable conditions. Everything is streamlined, DCs and modifiers give ideas as to how hard something could be, and they are consistent with every check. A DC30 check represents a heroic effort no matter what skill you use, be it balance or spellcraft. Similarly stat modifiers, and ability checks are all easy to incorporate.
So am I. Although I do have to remember not to use DCs going up in 4s, and not to have 7 as a Routine task, 11 as Difficult, and 15 as Formidable. |
|
|
|
Mace Hammerhand
Great Reader
Germany
2296 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 12:24:18
|
Seconded, 3.5 is very DM friendly!
Considering that 3.5 has been around for only a few years I hope they'll postpone any new edition for several years. Plus, even if they did release a new edition so soon...let's take a look at other systems: Shadowrun is in its 4th edition, the Dark Eye is in its 4th edition, Traveler has gone through a whole bunch of version, Vampire and the whole WOD is in its at least 3rd edition, most of these have been around about half as long as AD&D/D&D, but unlike AD&D/D&D the information and much of the material is compatible, at least in its basics.
Let's wait and see, maybe we just get the Core Books with a facelift. |
Mace's not so gentle gamer's journal My rants were harmless compared to this, beware! |
|
|
|
Sian
Senior Scribe
Denmark
596 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 13:05:59
|
| then ... question is ... would they still run with Greyhawk as default or would they make it 'no-setting' |
what happened to the queen? she's much more hysterical than usual
She's a women, it happens once a month |
|
|
|
Kalin Agrivar
Senior Scribe
Canada
956 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 14:09:23
|
IMO basic D&D to AD&D was the first conversion...they were two different games along the same theme
I never felt that 1E AD&D to 2E AD&D was a real "conversion", to me it was more of a face lift...yes they altered soem of the rules (e.g adding THACO) but there was no real difficulty converting from 1E to 2E and 2E to 1E...it was just a matter of substituting (sp?) rules...and the "optional" rules were just 2.5E, the second face lift (and the first step to get the players/buyers ready for the "2nd" conversion"
so (to me) 2E AD&D to 3.0 D&D is actually the "second" edition of dungeons and dragons...it was a true conversion (reflected by how difficult it is for an experienced 1E2E player/inexperienced 3E player to convert 2E to 3E)...I agree it was a necessary update/conversion...the AD&D system was around for almost 2 decades. 3.5 to me isn't even an "edition", it was just an needed ironing of the wrinkles in the 3.0 rules (a nose job instead of a full face lift like 1E-2E)
I greatly resent even the idea of discussion of 4E...you redo the core mechanics of a game when they are outdated or "broken", not so players have to go out and replace every core book out there...IMO it is the campaign worlds (wether GH, For, DL, Eb., etc.) that "run" dungeons and dragons, not the rules...the rules are just there to "drive" the game...the idea that in less that 10 years the game needs another overhaul? For pete's sake, they havn't even fully updated the Realms yet from 2E to 3E!
a conversion to 4E would mean I quit purchasing D&D material (including the Paizo magazines) except for the products with Realms canon unless 4E isn't actially a "conversion" but a "face lift" like 1E-2E
which is what I hope most dedicated D&D players would do to...
...and I would freak if a fully new 4E would still use a default "core setting", especially an arguably dead campaign world like Greyhawk (dead not because lack of fans, but lack of WotC actually publishing GH material)
*gets of ranting stump*
 |
Kalin Xorell El'Agrivar
- High Mage of the Arcane Assembly
- Lore Keeper of the Vault of Ancestors
- 3rd Son of the Lord of the Stand |
|
|
|
Mkhaiwati
Learned Scribe
USA
252 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 17:56:19
|
I have to agree with Kalin. (you preach it, brother from the North!)
I know other games are doing new editions every five years or so. Shadowrun, WoD, etc... but is it really necessary?
If it isn't broken... don't fix it. The only real thrust for it is to make money. Risk and Monopoly, while giving variations on the games, don't go changing rules every 10 years.
While I like 3.0 and 3.5, there wasn't a big difference between the two. Spells and a few skills and classes changed, but the core rules were the same. However, they made RPGA members buy the books by saying 3.0 stuff was taboo, only 3.5 was allowed. So all the members go buy new books and all the new complete books just so they can use a prestige class in the RPGA. I have no doubt it will happen again with 4e. When 4e comes, even if there are only slight changes (like swift/immediate actions), they will do the same thing, thereby making every single book they own unusable.
If the original designers are no longer with the company, and the current crop want their own edition, then make a new game, not change the current one. It basically comes down to money.
What does it say about the gaming industry when the means for a company to make money come from new editions, not from new players joining the game and buying current books or from supporting what is already out there.
*gets off rant stump* |
"Behold the work of the old... let your heritage not be lost but bequeath it as a memory, treasure and blessing... Gather the lost and the hidden and preserve it for thy children."
"not nale. not-nale. thog help nail not-nale, not nale. and thog knot not-nale while nale nail not-nale. nale, not not-nale, now nail not-nale by leaving not-nale, not nale, in jail." OotS #367 |
Edited by - Mkhaiwati on 28 Nov 2006 17:57:45 |
|
|
|
Faraer
Great Reader
3308 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 20:23:46
|
quote:
Originally posted by Mkhaiwati
If the original designers are no longer with the company, and the current crop want their own edition, then make a new game, not change the current one.
The same could be said, was said, of 3rd, which is a new game sharing common elements with AD&D, a bigger change than any new RPG 'edition' I can think of.quote:
What does it say about the gaming industry when the means for a company to make money come from new editions, not from new players joining the game and buying current books or from supporting what is already out there.
It says that its basic strategy is to sell lots of stuff to a relatively small market, cycle the edition and sell it again. And that Wizards of the Coast, the only company in the industry with the resources to expand the player base with heavy advertising investment, hasn't taken the risk. As I've said before, that would be a tremendous boon for the industry and medium and is by far the biggest potential upside of a company the size of Wizards and then Hasbro owning D&D.
quote:
Originally posted by Kalin Agrivar
I greatly resent even the idea of discussion of 4E...you redo the core mechanics of a game when they are outdated or "broken", not so players have to go out and replace every core book out there...
That isn't historically why new editions come. It's meaningless to talk of game rules being outdated, and very few published systems are 'broken' in any real sense.quote:
a conversion to 4E would mean I quit purchasing D&D material (including the Paizo magazines) except for the products with Realms canon
(A situation a lot of us are in now.)quote:
...and I would freak if a fully new 4E would still use a default "core setting", especially an arguably dead campaign world like Greyhawk (dead not because lack of fans, but lack of WotC actually publishing GH material)
Why? |
Edited by - Faraer on 28 Nov 2006 20:29:58 |
|
|
|
Wooly Rupert
Master of Mischief
USA
36890 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 20:46:43
|
| You know, many of us obviously have strong opinions on this matter. But, at the moment, all we have is vague rumors, some of which have been around since 3.5 came out. I think we might be better off expending our energies in other directions, rather than complaining about something that we don't even have official word on. |
Candlekeep Forums Moderator
Candlekeep - The Library of Forgotten Realms Lore
http://www.candlekeep.com -- Candlekeep Forum Code of Conduct
I am the Giant Space Hamster of Ill Omen! |
|
|
|
Wandering_mage
Senior Scribe
688 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 20:52:23
|
| Thank Tyr! Wooly you speak the truth. Rumors..... |
Illum
The Wandering Mage |
|
|
|
LucianBarasu
Fellaren-Krae Co-ordinator
USA
214 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 21:16:15
|
IF anyone who didn't live under a rock for the last 20 years know, WotC is the king of Expansions. They didn't invent the idea, but they sure did perfect it.
Anyone here play magic? anyone here buy ANY cards other than the original series Alpha?
Yep..
D&D will be no different. They see the rules change and the source material as a way to create "updates, or expansions" and make a profit from it.
Magic had alpha, beta, 4th edition, arabian nights, that snow one, that desert one, etc etc..
D&D will have 2.0 to 3.0 to 3.5 to 4.0 to 5.0 to beyond infinity....
Do we get scared and cry? create mass hysteria? pout in the corner? no.
I was the BIGGEST 2.0 addict and refused to buy WotC D&D 3.0 but i did it... and i'll probably begrudgingly buy 4.0 and 5.0.
And if you want to play the game on the level the majority of the world plays ( the most recent version) you will too.
|
Lucian "The Bringer" Barasu
Fellaren Krae Project Co-Ordinator
"Why do you cry?"
"He is Conan, Cimmerian. He won't cry... So I cry for him."
|
|
|
|
KnightErrantJR
Great Reader
USA
5402 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 21:50:53
|
With all due respect lucian, your analogy is almost accurate, but I think its a bit off. Magic, as a game system, still works pretty much the same way it did when it was introduced, but with new rules added in in the expansions that don't change the rules so much as add on to them. While a static card game is a bit different than a roleplaying game, the "expansions" would be your complete series, your new monster books, Eberron setting books, etc. The core mechanics are still pretty similar.
I would almost expect a redesigned 3.5 book before seeing a 4th edition come out. New artwork, included errata, polymorph subschool clarifications, etc., but not a true new version. Just my two cents, but I don't see how my guess is any different than any rumor floating around the ether, and if they made enough to cover the work that it did to do their minor revamps, then hey, have at it. |
|
|
|
Hoondatha
Great Reader
USA
2450 Posts |
Posted - 28 Nov 2006 : 21:51:04
|
Speak for yourself. I'm quite happily playing 2e, which I like *much* better than 3e. That doesn't mean I can't play 3e (I have), but the games I run are in the system I like.
However, as far as I'm concerned, this thread has served its purpose. I was wondering if there were any specifics out and about regarding 4e, and it appears that there aren't. So I'm now content to just sit back and wait it out. |
Doggedly converting 3e back to what D&D should be...
Sigh... And now 4e as well. |
|
|
|
Topic |
|
|
|
So what's this about 4th Edition?
Topic Locked
